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Re: Matheron Triptych hood?

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  • unclrashid
    ... It seems to me if it was folded back twice, you would only see one edge. It would have to be accordian pleated back to show two edges. When I think of how
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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      --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, "mathildegirlgenius"
      <mathilde@m...> wrote:
      > http://www.wga.hu/art/f/froment/diptych.jpg

      > It looks to me like a fairly normal open hood, that has been folded
      > back twice.
      >

      It seems to me if it was folded back twice, you would only see one
      edge. It would have to be accordian pleated back to show two edges.
      When I think of how long it would have to be to fold that way (like
      15" longer than the current front edge) I just can't imagine a hood
      being that deep.

      Rashid
    • siferrous
      Greetings, From my investigations, this style of hood was generally French from the late 15th century. The tend was towards a soft rounded hood versus the
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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        Greetings,
        From my investigations, this style of hood was generally French from
        the late 15th century. The tend was towards a soft rounded hood
        versus the rigid hennins. There is a good picture of the back and
        side of one in Gerard David's "The Marriage at Cana", c. 1500 (
        http://www.wga.hu/art/d/david/2/cana_mar.jpg ). She is the one in
        the center near the guy standing with the wine jugs. A similar one
        can be seen by one of the ladies in one of the Unicorn Tapestries (
        http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/Unicorn/unicorn_clothing_2.htm ). I
        have seen one picture (which I can not find now) where you can see
        lines running along the hat indicating seams

        The hoods seemed to be multi layer versus a multi folded lappet

        I have found one example from England (http://www.mbs-
        brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Stokesby_Brass.htm ), but women were mostly
        depicted with a hennin like style ( http://www.mbs-
        brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/picture_library-jewellery.htm ).

        I believe it to be an intermediate style between the truncated
        hennins and the French hood.

        Cassandre Loustaunau

        --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@t...>
        wrote:
        > Holly Stockley wrote:
        >
        > > I'd have guessed lappets, too. This almost looks like a cross
        between a
        > > hood and a truncated henin.
        >
        > The wrinkles at the back of the head make me think it's soft, not
        > firm/stiff like a truncated hennin.
        >
        > --
        > Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
      • uxbridgefox
        ... between a ... Hi, Thanks for looking at my hand out. It was done for Pennsic and I m still trying to format it to a web page. I have loaded more of the
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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          > I'd have guessed lappets, too. This almost looks like a cross
          between a
          > hood and a truncated henin.


          Hi,

          Thanks for looking at my hand out. It was done for Pennsic and I'm
          still trying to format it to a web page. I have loaded more of the
          pictures but I'm still trying to get it all formatted and "pretty"
          It is exausting work :)

          http://webpages.charter.net/eleanorlebrun/Mid%2015th%20Century%
          20French%20Dress.htm

          I'm wondering if the henins with lappets are worn over this style of
          hood? The back of the hood is form fitting to the lady's head and a
          hat could fit over it.

          For the double lappet look could you pleat back the hood front pin
          it and get the double fold look? You would not have to have a
          really deep front either. A few hidden pins could hold the pleat in
          place. The paining is a bit dark to get a lot of details.

          Good luck.

          Eleanor

          things to check out:

          tall henin's with lappets

          http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/g/goes/portinar/index.html
          http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/memling/2middle3/13nodo22.jpg
          http://www.wga.hu/art/m/memling/1early1/04noport.jpg
          There is aonther one in a Medieval Women's Calendar the women is
          wearing a tall henin, with very short lappets that curve like dog
          ears just at her jaw line. This is a french image.

          early French hoods transition after the henin
          http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/master/moulins/anne_aus.jpg
          http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/master/moulins/anne.jpg
        • karinne@spin.net.au
          Hi Mathilde, Have you seen the work of Marie Chantal Cadieux? She makes a hood very similar in style to this one, except in white linen. She also makes open
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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            Hi Mathilde,

            Have you seen the work of Marie Chantal Cadieux? She makes a hood very similar
            in style to this one, except in white linen. She also makes open faced hoods
            which are a variation but close to what you are looking for, and has some
            theories as to how they were constructed. Her website is
            here:
            http://www.geocities.com/mccadieux/15.html
            There are other pictures on the site of late 15th century French
            illuminations, you might have to dig around to find them.
            She is generally happy to answer questions, but there has also been a
            discussion of the hoods that she makes in this MedCos forum:
            http://slumberland.org/moodle/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=336
            if you'd prefer to start there.

            Cheers,
            Karinne
          • danabren@verizon.net
            ... Is that a chin strap the (presumed) donatrice is wearing, just beneath her chin, and not affiliated with the necklace below that which looks similar? Don t
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 2, 2004
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              > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/master/moulins/anne.jpg

              Is that a chin strap the (presumed) donatrice is wearing, just beneath her chin, and not affiliated with the necklace below that which looks similar?

              Don't expect proper grammar from me, it's way to early in the morning *ugh*
              Danabren

              ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
              "Some mornings it just doesn't pay to gnaw through the leather straps"
              Emo Philips
            • Dianne & Greg Stucki
              ... From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:17 AM Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] Re: Matheron
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 2, 2004
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <danabren@...>
                To: <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:17 AM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] Re: Matheron Triptych hood?


                >
                >
                >> http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/master/moulins/anne.jpg
                >
                > Is that a chin strap the (presumed) donatrice is wearing, just beneath her
                > chin, and not affiliated with the necklace below that which looks similar?

                Sure looks like one. It clearly goes from one side of the headdress to the
                other, and certainly appears to be attached to it on one side.

                Note weasel words. I have not yet had enough coffee to trust my own vision.
                Must mainline more coffeeeeeee.

                Laurensa
              • mathildegirlgenius
                ... of ... a ... That s exactly what I was thinking. I d eventually like to make a hennin, and thought maybe this piece would be a good base article. The hood
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 6, 2004
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                  > I'm wondering if the henins with lappets are worn over this style
                  of
                  > hood? The back of the hood is form fitting to the lady's head and
                  a
                  > hat could fit over it.

                  That's exactly what I was thinking. I'd eventually like to make a
                  hennin, and thought maybe this piece would be a good base article.
                  The hood would be a very sturdy base, and the lappets would
                  counterweight the hennin. Also, as I'm wearing this for camping next
                  weekend, it might be a nice "in camp" look, then when the public
                  comes by for the demo (other events, not this one) I can put on the
                  hennin and explain.

                  > For the double lappet look could you pleat back the hood front pin
                  > it and get the double fold look? You would not have to have a
                  > really deep front either. A few hidden pins could hold the pleat
                  in
                  > place. The paining is a bit dark to get a lot of details.

                  Yeah, I know. :-) Wish I could see the original. This is what I
                  originally pictured when I saw the hood. Of course, I'm coming at it
                  from a generally earlier 15th century background, so I would see
                  a "hood". As Rashid pointed out, it would have to be an accordian
                  pleat, which is what I was actually imagining. A hood, made very
                  deep and designed to pleat twice. It would explain what looks like a
                  double fold to me.

                  You know, it might not even need that much to hold it - I'm going to
                  do it in a heavy wool, that holds its shape pretty well. Ah, the
                  joys of fulled wool - don't need to finish the edges! :-D

                  Link again, just in case people don't still have it...
                  http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/f/p-froment3.htm

                  My only worry now is that the style is too late for me. The painting
                  is attributed at 1474, and my group portrays 1471. 3 years off I'm
                  willing to do, especially because it has the look (to me) of what
                  could be under a contemporary henin. But if it's just a precursor to
                  the later French hood, maybe Jeanne de Laval was more chic than I
                  give her credit for. She's a queen, I'm only a minor gentlewoman.

                  Thanks for the links!

                  The good news is, the dress that this is going with is done! I'll
                  post pics as soon as I get them uploaded (the other computer is on
                  the blitz, though).

                  Cheers,
                  Mathilde
                • mathildegirlgenius
                  Wonderful! Thank you for the links. That puts more context around it. ... Yes, these others definitely look like multi layer. It looks to me like she has two
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 6, 2004
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                    Wonderful! Thank you for the links. That puts more context around it.

                    > The hoods seemed to be multi layer versus a multi folded lappet

                    Yes, these others definitely look like multi layer. It looks to me
                    like she has two folds at the front of her head. I wonder how to get
                    that without the aforementioned accordian pleating? I'll have to
                    play with it.

                    > I have found one example from England (http://www.mbs-
                    > brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Stokesby_Brass.htm ), but women were mostly
                    > depicted with a hennin like style ( http://www.mbs-
                    > brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/picture_library-jewellery.htm ).

                    *sigh* Unfortunatly, we have so LITTLE from England in the 15th
                    century. Even the Web Gallery of Art has *nothing* for 1400-1500. If
                    anybody has more than these brasses, please let me know!

                    > --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue
                    <cvirtue@t...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > The wrinkles at the back of the head make me think it's soft,
                    not
                    > > firm/stiff like a truncated hennin.

                    I was wondering, if it's gathered back there? Then if it stops at
                    the nape of the neck, or continues down like a 15th c hood?

                    And re: the Marie Chantal link:
                    I still haven't found the white hood, but I'll keep looking. She
                    really does have quite a site. I really enjoy all of her sources -
                    there's some artwork I just haven't seen elsewhere! Her theories on
                    breast binding are very interesting as well.

                    Thanks all!
                    Mathilde
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