Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

late 1500's veil

Expand Messages
  • caitlin_oduibhir
    I think I am trying to reconstruct the impossible. I am looking for a wire metal, one that would have been used in period that is very thin, yet very strong,
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 26, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      I think I am trying to reconstruct the impossible.

      I am looking for a wire metal, one that would have been used in
      period that is very thin, yet very strong, enough to support a couple
      of yards of lightwieght but very movable textile. I am trying to
      reproduce a "butterfly" (I have no clue what they were properly
      called) veil. for the sake of better explanation, these are various
      portraits that I am using as my basis of example:

      http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/Eliza07Rainbow.jpg
      painted c. 1600
      http://www.fashion-era.com/images/AdornCorsetry/ironclad.jpg
      painted 1592
      http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/news/newthismonth/walrobinson1-1-13.asp
      possibly 1588
      http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/ManuVen10.JPG

      It needs to be thin so it won't be visibly intrusive, but strong
      enough to support that much fabric, spring back into place if
      disturbed and take the constant movement of the wearer's head. Any
      ideas?

      Caitlin
    • danabren@verizon.net
      ... No such thing :) ... I strongly recommend wire hangers. They are easy to work with (pliers help), reasonably strong and sturdy, hold a shape well, and your
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 27, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        > I think I am trying to reconstruct the impossible.

        No such thing :)

        > I am looking for a wire metal, one that would have been used in
        > period that is very thin, yet very strong, enough to support a couple
        > of yards of lightwieght but very movable textile. I am trying to
        > reproduce a "butterfly" (I have no clue what they were properly
        > called) veil. for the sake of better explanation, these are various
        > portraits that I am using as my basis of example:

        > It needs to be thin so it won't be visibly intrusive, but strong
        > enough to support that much fabric, spring back into place if
        > disturbed and take the constant movement of the wearer's head. Any
        > ideas?
        >
        > Caitlin

        I strongly recommend wire hangers. They are easy to work with (pliers help), reasonably strong and sturdy, hold a shape well, and your dry cleaner might not even charge you.

        There are 2 weights, though, and you should be careful - one is very flimsy and thin, and probably won't be useful for this project, they are usually sprayed white. The heavier weight ones are bronze-ish color.

        Clip off the hook, unfold and smooth out the hangar shape, and put a small tip of duct tape, tool-dip, or something similar on the raw ends.

        Good luck, and don't forget to take pictures!
        Danabren


        ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
        Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
      • Jennifer / Guenievre
        ... oups.yahoo.com [mailto:sentto-312294-1890-1083072600- Generys=blazemail.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com] On Behalf Of ... If you do use hangers or other dark
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 27, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From:
          > sentto-312294-1890-1083072600-Generys=blazemail.com@...
          oups.yahoo.com [mailto:sentto-312294-1890-1083072600->
          Generys=blazemail.com@...] On Behalf Of
          > danabren@...
          > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 9:30 AM
          > To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [SCA-Milliners] late 1500's veil
          >
          >
          > > I think I am trying to reconstruct the impossible.
          >
          > No such thing :)
          >
          > > I am looking for a wire metal, one that would have been
          > used in period
          > > that is very thin, yet very strong, enough to support a couple of
          > > yards of lightwieght but very movable textile. I am trying to
          > > reproduce a "butterfly" (I have no clue what they were properly
          > > called) veil. for the sake of better explanation, these are various
          > > portraits that I am using as my basis of example:
          >
          > > It needs to be thin so it won't be visibly intrusive, but strong
          > > enough to support that much fabric, spring back into place if
          > > disturbed and take the constant movement of the wearer's head. Any
          > > ideas?
          > >
          > > Caitlin
          >
          > I strongly recommend wire hangers. They are easy to work with
          > (pliers help), reasonably strong and sturdy, hold a shape
          > well, and your dry cleaner might not even charge you.
          >
          > There are 2 weights, though, and you should be careful - one
          > is very flimsy and thin, and probably won't be useful for
          > this project, they are usually sprayed white. The heavier
          > weight ones are bronze-ish color.
          >
          > Clip off the hook, unfold and smooth out the hangar shape,
          > and put a small tip of duct tape, tool-dip, or something
          > similar on the raw ends.
          >
          > Good luck, and don't forget to take pictures!
          > Danabren
          >
          >

          If you do use hangers or other dark wire, I would either wrap them or paint
          them (white tool dip?) so they don't show visibly through the veiling...the
          first butterfly I made always looked a bit odd b/c I didn't do this.

          Guenievre
        • Wisby
          OK, here s whats up. In the past, I was a TTunic and jeans type of girl. Happy in my engineer boots and comfortable. However, Im not willing to be a screaming
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 27, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            OK, here's whats up.
            In the past, I was a TTunic and jeans type of girl. Happy in my engineer boots and comfortable.

            However, Im not willing to be a screaming advertisement to newbies that "its OK not to try".
            I decided to revamp my persona, get some great garb together, and make another go of it.

            Unfortunately... I HATE the headgear! I can ( barely ) tolerate the long T tunic/gown things, though I did take a header down some steps the other day /grin.
            I wont wear a peplos or anything with "boobie brooches", so a good ol' bandanna style kerchief is out.

            I tried Anglo Saxon 10thC with a veil and wimple. Folks were terribly helpful getting it onto me. Unfortunately, I felt like I was wearing a mudflap. Every time I moved, this stupid thing was swinging away. Im afraid I was close to screaming by the end of the day.

            What I want ( read need for my sanity ) is some kinda way to get away with a phrygian cap, 6 panel cap, russian fur cap... ANYTHING that I can plop on my head, which will keep my hair out of my eyes, but is screamingly documentable.

            Has anyone got ideas? /whimper....

            Thanks so much for any thoughts

            Aesa.


            ---------------------------------
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • danabren@verizon.net
            ... Try this http://www.baronmorgan.gallowglass.org/articles/cna07_plantaganetcap.html The garb is also very easy to make and wear. Pix at the bottom show the
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 27, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              > What I want (read need for my sanity) is some kinda way to get away with a phrygian cap, 6 panel cap, russian fur cap... ANYTHING that I can plop on my head, which will keep my hair out of my eyes, but is screamingly documentable.
              >
              > Has anyone got ideas? /whimper....
              >
              > Thanks so much for any thoughts
              >
              > Aesa.

              Try this

              http://www.baronmorgan.gallowglass.org/articles/cna07_plantaganetcap.html

              The garb is also very easy to make and wear. Pix at the bottom show the hat being worn a multitude of ways, from plopped on free-flowing hair to covered, pinned, and otherwise accessorized.

              I am aware of some typos etc on the page, alas, and someday the host will get around to repairing them....

              Danabren

              ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
              Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
            • leycestershyre
              Greetings Caitlin, Nope. Not impossible ! You can certainly do it. I ve been wanting to do this one for a long time! Glad to see that you are taking on
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 27, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Greetings Caitlin,

                Nope. Not "impossible"! You can certainly do it. I've been wanting
                to do this one for a long time! Glad to see that you are taking on
                the challenge! I hope you will show all of us some pictures when
                you're done!

                My suggestion is to use rayon wrapped millinery wire. It comes in
                three gauges, #16, #19, and #21...the smaller the gauge, the stiffer
                the wire. You can get it in both white and black. Obviously white
                would be the better choice for you. I would definitely use the #16
                the outside of the frame. It is really strong! Then you could
                probably get away with the #21 for the supporting struts or braces.

                The wonderful thing about millinery wire, as opposed to coathanger or
                some other, is that it has "spring"...but, it is also pliable and can
                be securely bent into and shape, and it will stay. It would
                absolutely be my first choice for this collar.

                Jean Hunnisett recreated the "Ditchley Portrait gown" with this
                standing collar for "Elizabeth R" with Glenda Jackson, back in 1973
                for the six-part BBC series, and there are some good drawings of the
                way she made it in her popular book: "Period Costume for the Stage
                and Screen", ISBN 0-88734-610-3, 1991, Players Press Inc., PO Box
                1132, Studio City, CA 91614-0132, first printed in Great Britain by
                Unwin Hyman Ltd., 1988, Library of Congress Number 90-50385. Look on
                page 83.

                Hunnisett used a soldered wire framework, but then she had access to
                professional film studio workshops and help. Personally, I don't
                know how to solder, and it wouldn't work anyway, with the millinery
                wire because of the covering. But, you can use small floral wire at
                the junctions of the frame, or possibly try a little test with some
                good strong epoxy glue. That should hold.

                A good source (the one I use) for the millinery wire is: Farthingales
                Online, http://www.farthingales.on.ca/home.htm. Go to the index, and
                down to Millinery Supplies, and follow from there. You will find
                pictures, and pricing. She's a Canadian merchant, but she also has a
                conversion site which will tell you how much in US dollars. It comes
                by the yard and in 60yard coils. I have been buying from her from
                years, and highly recommend her wire, and her service.

                Best of luck to you,
                Eleanor
              • Rebecca Perry
                If you want simple, try a knotted kerchief - just a square of white linen, about 28 or so on a side. Using two adjacent corners, tie it on your head as you
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 27, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  If you want simple, try a knotted kerchief - just a square of white linen,
                  about 28" or so on a side. Using two adjacent corners, tie it on your head
                  as you would a bandanna (but not triangle-folded.) It will hold your hair
                  back and stay in place all day, and no reasonable person can argue with it.

                  Savina
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Wisby [mailto:wisby_kotte@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 7:42 AM
                  To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [SCA-Milliners] I cant deal with my headgear


                  OK, here's whats up.
                  In the past, I was a TTunic and jeans type of girl. Happy in my engineer
                  boots and comfortable.

                  However, Im not willing to be a screaming advertisement to newbies that
                  "its OK not to try".
                  I decided to revamp my persona, get some great garb together, and make
                  another go of it.

                  Unfortunately... I HATE the headgear! I can ( barely ) tolerate the long T
                  tunic/gown things, though I did take a header down some steps the other day
                  /grin.
                  I wont wear a peplos or anything with "boobie brooches", so a good ol'
                  bandanna style kerchief is out.

                  I tried Anglo Saxon 10thC with a veil and wimple. Folks were terribly
                  helpful getting it onto me. Unfortunately, I felt like I was wearing a
                  mudflap. Every time I moved, this stupid thing was swinging away. Im afraid
                  I was close to screaming by the end of the day.

                  What I want ( read need for my sanity ) is some kinda way to get away with
                  a phrygian cap, 6 panel cap, russian fur cap... ANYTHING that I can plop on
                  my head, which will keep my hair out of my eyes, but is screamingly
                  documentable.

                  Has anyone got ideas? /whimper....

                  Thanks so much for any thoughts

                  Aesa.


                  ---------------------------------
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  Community email addresses:
                  Post message: SCA-Milliners@onelist.com
                  Subscribe: SCA-Milliners-subscribe@onelist.com
                  Unsubscribe: SCA-Milliners-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                  List owner: SCA-Milliners-owner@onelist.com

                  Shortcut URL to this page:
                  http://www.onelist.com/community/SCA-Milliners



                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  --
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Milliners/

                  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  SCA-Milliners-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                  ---
                  Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                  Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                  Version: 6.0.669 / Virus Database: 431 - Release Date: 4/26/2004


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Roana FitsStephen
                  Try a turban. I hate wearing things on my head. Not dislike hate. I don t even wear a hat mundanely but one I learned how to wear a turban I was hooked. Lady
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 27, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Try a turban.

                    I hate wearing things on my head. Not dislike hate.
                    I don't even wear a hat mundanely but one I learned
                    how to wear a turban I was hooked.

                    Lady Roana FitzStephen





                    __________________________________
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
                    http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
                  • caitlin_oduibhir
                    ... I m apt to use a very heavy weight milliner s wire so that I can nip a tiny stitch into the thread wrapping, should I need to hold the fabric in place
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 27, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > I strongly recommend wire hangers.

                      I'm apt to use a very heavy weight milliner's wire so that I can nip
                      a tiny stitch into the thread wrapping, should I need to hold the
                      fabric in place strategically. Maybe two wires wrapped/bound
                      together? The material I am using is an accordion pleated netting,
                      looking very much like it was broom pleated, so it can't be stretched
                      and should have the pleats supported in various locations so they
                      hold up under the weight.

                      >
                      > Good luck, and don't forget to take pictures!

                      If I pull this off.. I will. :-)

                      Caitlin
                    • caitlin_oduibhir
                      ... stiffer ... That is what I was thinking. I am working with it right now to make the Venetian standing collar supportasse for a related project. I seem to
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 28, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > My suggestion is to use rayon wrapped millinery wire. It comes in
                        > three gauges, #16, #19, and #21...the smaller the gauge, the
                        stiffer
                        > the wire.

                        That is what I was thinking. I am working with it right now to make
                        the Venetian standing collar supportasse for a related project. I
                        seem to be on a sculpting kick lately. :-)
                        >
                        > Jean Hunnisett recreated the "Ditchley Portrait gown" with this
                        > standing collar for "Elizabeth R" with Glenda Jackson, back in 1973
                        > for the six-part BBC series, and there are some good drawings of
                        the
                        > way she made it in her popular book: "Period Costume for the Stage
                        > and Screen",

                        Ah.. perhaps I should get my hands on a copy and take a quick flip
                        though before digging into this. I have a lot of search to go on this
                        project as it is - I am not making an English, but a Venetian gown. I
                        have to be certain that it's not anachronistic for the culture before
                        I get hip deep into the project. I am attacking the research from
                        both ends right now. I am waiting for some rather unknown engravings
                        to show up, after a bit of run around. I'll be a while before I can
                        establish for certain if these are source material or someone else's
                        redrawings.

                        > Hunnisett used a soldered wire framework, but then she had access
                        to
                        > professional film studio workshops and help.

                        Not a problem. Hubby does it all the time. Either I can do it, or he
                        can.

                        and it wouldn't work anyway, with the millinery
                        > wire because of the covering.

                        Why not? Just burn off that section, solder in, then re-wind new
                        covering over the joint- also prevents the chance of snags from the
                        solder.


                        or possibly try a little test with some
                        > good strong epoxy glue.

                        This works too, I'm sure. :-) For my supportasse, I just wound
                        buttonhole thread over the short bends in the strut and around the
                        main support, then coated it in glue. Nothing will ever ravel that
                        way and protected the cut ends from snagging.

                        Farthingales
                        > Online, http://www.farthingales.on.ca/home.htm. Go to the index,
                        and
                        > down to Millinery Supplies, and follow from there.

                        *grins* I know the owner of that store fairly well. I too have been
                        buying from her for years. I live just under an hour away from her
                        shop. I just wish I could afford some of the other things she
                        sells.... *wistful sigh* She has a definite talent for fabric
                        shopping!

                        Caitlin
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.