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Re: [SCA-Milliners] quicherat - odd headwear France 1390

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  • Cynthia Virtue
    Note that attachments don t come through on this list (saves bandwidth and viruses) so you d need to put it in the Yahoo files section and then tell us where
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 15, 2004
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      Note that attachments don't come through on this list (saves bandwidth
      and viruses) so you'd need to put it in the Yahoo files section and then
      tell us where it is.

      Kristen Dahle wrote:
      > I haven't heard of this source before, but I'm always suspect of redrawings.
      > To me, this looks like a stylized ruffled veil over cauls. If I were making
      > it, I'd try to find an original painting or statue that showed the square
      > outline first. This is just a little earlier than I've done much
      > research--anyone else?

      Without seeing it, I'd guess you're talking about the group of styles
      generally called "nebuly." I may be spelling that wrong.

      At any rate, although they do seem to be a form of ruffled veil,
      possibly folded over lots, like the "Arnolfini wedding" hat, they seem
      to be well-represented, although mostly in funerary brasses and whatnot.

      Can't say that I've ever seen one at an SCA event, though!

      --
      Cynthia Virtue and/or
      Cynthia du Pré Argent

      Ask yourself - "How would Sauron have described the situation?"
      And then -- "What might 'really' have happened?" -- David Brin
    • bex_1014
      You re right - it _does_ look like a stylised ruffled veil. I hadn t seen it before, I guess I got thrown off by the veil looking dark, and so stiff. But that
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 15, 2004
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        You're right - it _does_ look like a stylised ruffled veil. I hadn't
        seen it before, I guess I got thrown off by the veil looking dark,
        and so stiff. But that could be the re-drawing.
        The original statue was apparently located in the Musee des Thermes,
        which is now part of the Cluny (where the Lady and the Unicorn are).
        No idea if it's still there, I can't find it in the online collection.
        Anyone else ever seen it?
        Rebecca


        --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, "Kristen Dahle" <kjdahle@c...>
        wrote:
        > I haven't heard of this source before, but I'm always suspect of
        redrawings.
        > To me, this looks like a stylized ruffled veil over cauls. If I
        were making
        > it, I'd try to find an original painting or statue that showed the
        square
        > outline first. This is just a little earlier than I've done much
        > research--anyone else?
        >
        > Pax,
        > Elisa
        >
        > > It looks like a semicircle dark veil over cauls, or some sort of
        cage-
        > > work, possibly cylinders. It seems to have some support structure
        > > under it though, to get a square look.
        > > What I'd like to know is, is Quicherat a good source?
      • bex_1014
        ... bandwidth ... then ... I posted a URL, as below- ... 1875, Lady in surcoat, c.1390 . You can see the pic at:
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 15, 2004
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          --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@t...>
          wrote:
          > Note that attachments don't come through on this list (saves
          bandwidth
          > and viruses) so you'd need to put it in the Yahoo files section and
          then
          > tell us where it is.

          I posted a URL, as below-
          >>Jules Quicherat in Histoire du costume en France, Paris,
          1875, "Lady in surcoat, c.1390". You can see the pic at:
          http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/timelinepages/14thcent1.htm
          (second row down, middle)

          If that doesn't work, or you'd prefer a file on Yahoo, let me know.
          Rebecca
        • Cynthia Virtue
          ... Thanks! Sorry for the confusion; I never recieved that posting; all I saw was Kristen s response. I wonder why it didn t come through? At any rate, I ve
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 15, 2004
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            bex_1014 wrote:
            > I posted a URL, as below -

            Thanks! Sorry for the confusion; I never recieved that posting; all I
            saw was Kristen's response. I wonder why it didn't come through?

            At any rate, I've now read it on the Yahoo site itself, and looked at
            the picture.

            Based on two interpretations of the costume, I think that the redrawing
            is attempting to portray one of two styles, but I'm not sure which.

            1: The costume is a "cotehardie"; the hat is one of the weirder "nebuly"
            headdresses. There are some in sculpture and funerary brasses which
            show this as a "honeycomb" effect, rather like those tissue paper
            wedding bells that come flat, and you fold out and around and fasten
            back to themselves to make a 3-D shape. And there's a veil on the
            nebuly, also, so you get this sort of square sausage effect, with a veil
            hanging down the back. Very odd. But would be really cool to do if you
            can figure out how.

            2: The costume is a houppelande; the hat is a reticulated headdress not
            unlike Jean of Bourbon's effigy (died around the same time as the
            redrawing) which I have a small picture near the top of:
            http://www.virtue.to/articles/easy_cauls.html but with reticulation
            over the top of the head as well.

            --
            Cynthia Virtue and/or
            Cynthia du Pré Argent

            "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
            "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.
          • Kristen Dahle
            I was responding to someone else s post that had a link to a specific redrawing. The headdress in the drawing looks like a ruffled/nebuly veil over cauls,
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 15, 2004
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              I was responding to someone else's post that had a link to a specific
              redrawing. The headdress in the drawing looks like a ruffled/nebuly veil
              over cauls, which is common. The odd thing (to me at least) is that the
              veil is shown very squared off around the face. Because the original poster
              only had a redrawing, I was suggesting that she find a sculpture or painting
              that showed such a squared off arrangement. I can't remember seeing one
              like it, but I tend to focus on clothing and headdresses of about 25 years
              later.

              Pax,
              Elisa

              > Note that attachments don't come through on this list (saves bandwidth
              > and viruses) so you'd need to put it in the Yahoo files section and then
              > tell us where it is.
              > Without seeing it, I'd guess you're talking about the group of styles
              > generally called "nebuly." I may be spelling that wrong.
            • bex_1014
              ... redrawing ... I agree with the cotehardie idea, I think she s wearing a fitted gown underneath a wide-sleeved semi-fitted over-gown, similar to those in
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 15, 2004
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                --- In SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@t...>
                wrote:
                > Based on two interpretations of the costume, I think that the
                redrawing
                > is attempting to portray one of two styles, but I'm not sure which.
                >
                > 1: The costume is a "cotehardie";
                I agree with the "cotehardie" idea, I think she's wearing a fitted
                gown underneath a wide-sleeved semi-fitted over-gown, similar to
                those in the May pic in Tres Riches Heures, but less "slinky".
                All the houppelands I've seen have had collars.

                >the hat is one of the weirder "nebuly"
                > headdresses. And there's a veil on the
                > nebuly, also, so you get this sort of square sausage effect, with a
                veil
                > hanging down the back. Very odd. But would be really cool to do
                if you
                > can figure out how.
                >
                > 2: The costume is a houppelande; the hat is a reticulated headdress
                not
                > unlike Jean of Bourbon's effigy (died around the same time as the
                > redrawing) which I have a small picture near the top of:
                > http://www.virtue.to/articles/easy_cauls.html but with
                reticulation
                > over the top of the head as well.

                Possibly a combination? A nebula headdress over a reticulated
                headdress? Now that's really silly. But you can see the side "cauls",
                which probably are hair under either a net or cagework, and then the
                bigger veil (if that's what it is) over the top. Perhaps I could get
                my friend to settle for a nice padded, dagged roll...
                Thanks for your help,
                Rebecca
              • bex_1014
                Something else which could have a bearing on it - the picture s caption reads Dame et surcot d environ 1390, sculptee sur une cheminee du musee des Thermes I
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 18, 2004
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                  Something else which could have a bearing on it - the picture's
                  caption reads "Dame et surcot d'environ 1390, sculptee sur une
                  cheminee du musee des Thermes"
                  I take this to mean "Lady in surcoat of about 1390, a sculpture on a
                  chimney at the Museum of Thermes". If the lady is a chimney
                  supporter, perhaps the flat headpiece is a result of supporting a
                  mantelpiece on top.
                  The "normal" look being a goffered veil over net and side cauls a la
                  Jeanne de Bourbon.
                  I have seen pics of brass rubbings showing a square look, but I had
                  thought that was a stylization of the goffered veil, since they also
                  tend to favour the XXXXX or zig-zag method of showing the goffering.
                  I'd better look them up and check.

                  Rebecca
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