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RE: [SCA-Milliners] Re: pillbox hats

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  • Katherine Barich
    ... The French passage will make more sense in context with the image and text from Davenport. Furthermore, Davenport describes the small cap on Saint
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 1, 2003
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      ><BR>
      >The plantagenet cap/'coffee filter hat' doesn't really appear until<BR>
      >after the bliaut is out of fashion (Except for that one unattributed<BR>
      >image, and possibly the image that is only referred to, of St.<BR>
      >Catherine), and isn't usually described as a pillbox hat, either.<BR>
      ><BR>
      >To the earlier participant in the discussion -Katherine, were you<BR>
      >referring to the 'pillbox hat' as referred to in the iffy costume<BR>
      >books, or were you in fact referring to a plantagenet cap/'coffee<BR>
      >filter hat'? You didn't really clarify, even though the one image of a<BR>
      >woman wearing something like a pillbox hat seemed to be of a<BR>
      >plantagenet cap. I'd be interested to see a copy of the image of st.<BR>
      >Catherine as well, since I don't have a copy and I cannot locate one<BR>
      >online.<BR>
      ><BR>
      >If that is what you meant, just say so :)<BR>
      ><BR>
      >Marguerie <BR>
      ><BR>
      >P.S. <BR>
      >The french passage quoted in katherine's earlier post said nothing<BR>
      >about hats, and only said that long dangling sleeves were exclusively<BR>
      >seen in artwork the last half of the 12th century (which is false -<BR>
      >they were worn prior to 1066 -Bayeaux Tapestry?-, and appear in<BR>
      >various forms for nearly 200 years all over western Europe), and that<BR>
      >is what is used to date the image. They do not seem willing to<BR>
      >entertain any *later* work on the images discussed, and the reasoning<BR>
      >seems flawed to me. YMMV.<BR>

      The French passage will make more sense in context with the image and text from Davenport. Furthermore, Davenport describes the small cap on Saint Catherine as a
      "pillbox". It is small, about 2 to 3 inches tall, sits on the back of the head in almost a 'Jackie O' type style. No sign of any decoration
      though. It's definitely not a coffee filter hat, and if it is a
      Plantagenet cap, it is kind of smallish. Do you want me to post a scanof the Davenport page? Davenport is a great reference book to haveon hand and can occasionally be found for as little as $20 if you are patient. I refer to it often.

      Maura will know me from the 12th century garb list, and most likely thought
      I was rambling about 12th century garb, which I was. I am more
      interested in 16th century headdress, so haven't really gathered tons
      of evidence for the 12th century pillbox style, but as I stated before,
      I will look for further images and let you know when I run across them.
      I believe the Saint Catherine image does show a cap as you described
      above within the 12th century time range. I think it is obvious that
      the subject could use further research - possibly identifying the
      sources of the earlier 'pillbox' style statements to either verify or
      debunk the assertion. And a search of period literature can be
      conducted to see if there are words that are associated with this
      style of headdress. A glossary of 12th century headgear is in order!

      I have been noting an what I feel is an unfortunate scoffing of Victorian
      sources. I have found that it really is a fascinating study to follow
      their logic to the source. These sources often have a way of making the study of
      costume more of a social history than a pure and somewhat sterile
      archaeological study. Sure extant stuff is great, but for me loses
      something when the spirit of the people and time are left behind for
      a strictly technological interpretation. And another bonus of studying
      the Victorian versions of costume history is that their sources
      sometimes are not seen in later bibliographies and have some other
      clues to extant pieces.

      I personally would like to see folks do a survey of the evolution of
      the knowledge on a costume piece up to the state of the art.
      I think it shows that a person has done the homework. I don't want to
      come across as crabby or pedantic either, but it seems to me that almost
      any costume question nowadays can proceed right up to the PHD level.
      Did anyone watch Nefertiti Resurrected? The good Doctor was an expert
      in Egyptian hair and potentially has made the Egyptian find of a generation
      based on her knowledge of costuming and spotting a little known wig in
      the Cairo Museum.

      At the moment I am working pretty hard on a class for 16th century
      German stuff so I can't really delve as deeply as I'd like to answer
      the question at hand. But I'm interested, definitely, and Maura
      would love to hear if you are going to follow-up and any conclusions
      you may reach. Your work is very nice, and I know I would once again
      be most impressed.

      Katherine Barich

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    • danabren@juno.com
      ... Mmm, I going to disagree with you here. While yes, some Victorian pieces are good in that they may draw our attention to less-well-known period sources, or
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 1, 2003
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        > I have been noting an what I feel is an unfortunate scoffing of
        > Victorian
        > sources. I have found that it really is a fascinating study to
        > follow
        > their logic to the source. These sources often have a way of making
        > the study of
        > costume more of a social history than a pure and somewhat sterile
        > archaeological study. Sure extant stuff is great, but for me loses
        > something when the spirit of the people and time are left behind
        > for
        > a strictly technological interpretation. And another bonus of
        > studying
        > the Victorian versions of costume history is that their sources
        > sometimes are not seen in later bibliographies and have some other
        > clues to extant pieces.
        > Katherine Barich

        Mmm, I going to disagree with you here. While yes, some Victorian pieces
        are good in that they may draw our attention to less-well-known period
        sources, or lost peices, as actual documentation they are
        counter-productive.

        Having spent nearly (argh) twenty years studying costuming, and having
        compared many a Kohler, Braun & Schenider, and Bruhn-Tilke to the
        secondary documentation, I can say quite comfortably that it's a rare
        rare thing to find accurate teriary Victorian documentation on Medieval
        and Renaissance clothing. The artists, while their hearts are in the
        right place, often lose seams, mis-interpret (in my eyes, and the eyes of
        those whose artistic opinion I respect) clothing, and just plain make
        stuff up.

        Also, rarely do they actually cite their sources, so while they may have
        drawn a perfectly magnificent headdress and implied that it was common
        and daily wear for noblewomen, it takes over 10 years to find the
        tapestry used for the documentation in the first place, and that the sole
        example. (You bet I was happy when I finally found it!)

        Just this past Pennsic a Queen attended a party in a lovely bliaut with a
        corselet - a corselet which has no basis in actual medieval costume, but
        was a misinterpretation by a Victorian "documentor", who, with no
        knowledge of fabric and clothing drape but plenty of presumption, has
        managed to confuse generations of costumers, costume designers, and
        medievalists, up to and including the present day (as evidenced by Her
        Majesty who shall remain nameless)

        As for artistic interpretation and costume history, let's hear it for the
        Victorians! Pre-Raphaelite art, Art Nouveau? Love it, covet it, used to
        collect it. For showing a new member what they will (sort of) look like
        when the dress is done, great. But for anything else besides a survey of
        the evolution of costume and theory, I cannot and will not support
        Victorian documentation for medieval re-enactment.

        Danabren, East

        ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
        "It isn't what they say about you, it's what they whisper."
        -Errol Flynn

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      • danabren@juno.com
        ... Who is the publisher? The author? Where can I find it? I want this book! Danabren ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ It isn t what
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 1, 2003
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          > There is a great book entitled Kröne und Krönung
          > Katherine Barich

          Who is the publisher? The author? Where can I find it? I want this book!

          Danabren

          ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
          "It isn't what they say about you, it's what they whisper."
          -Errol Flynn

          ________________________________________________________________
          The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
          Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
          Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
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