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Re: [SCA-Milliners]That site / "glue finished?"

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  • Zohra Rawling
    ... I agree with you Cynthia. I think my biggest issue and it is the same issue with many in the SCA They may know everything there is to know about one time
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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      >
      >
      >> I know the person who did it.
      >
      > If I knew if she were apprenticed, I'd write to her Peer, and suggest
      > the above. But I don't even know that. Certainly everyone may run the
      > websites they want to, so I can only assume at this point that the
      > webmistress *wants* a mean & nasty site.
      >
      I agree with you Cynthia.


      I think my biggest issue and it is the same issue with many in the SCA
      They may know everything there is to know about one time period in
      history, I applaud them for that.
      However that does not mean they know ANYTHING about another period.
      Some people are honest about that, others just keep talking away
      telling how you have done it wrong when in fact, you have not.
      As I am new to sewing and really understanding my period of choice,
      this gets frustrating and more often than not I run back all in a tizzy
      to my Laurel whimpering like a puppy complete with tail between legs.
      Is this what we want our society to be like?

      My this has turned into a rant, complete with soapbox. I do apologize
      for that. LOL

      I think this woman has other very nice and useful websites.
      I agree it is nice to see other people's idea of authentic representing
      their time period.
      It just comes down to, I am tired of mean cowardice people.


      Ysabella

      >
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      ---------------------------

      Chuck had a theory that women were closely related to machinery, both
      utterly unpredictable by logic. He drew graphs on the table top in beer
      to prove his thesis.

      -Heinlein
    • Richard Mowbray
      Gentle Ladies, I think you are taking this AIPON site a little too seriously. Sure, there are folks that snipe on that page. There are plenty of artisans and
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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        Gentle Ladies,

        I think you are taking this AIPON site a little too seriously. Sure,
        there are folks that snipe on that page. There are plenty of artisans
        and would-be artisans in the SCA that snipe, too. It's no different
        from any other ranking site on the web.

        As for someone who knows everything about dress from a given time and
        place in period... I have my doubts about that.

        If you submit yourself for judgement on a site that you haven't checked
        out, then you have only yourself to blame. If you checked it out first,
        then you get what you expect.

        In search of more pleasurable persuits...


        =====
        I Live to Serve
        Sir Richard

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      • danabren@juno.com
        ... I couldn t agree more. When you consider the delicacy and fine-ness of the mid- and later-priod veils, the thought of using something so stiff and heavy as
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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          > I have also heard folks say fray check is period. While I agree hide
          > glue
          > *could* be used as a period form of fray check. Having played around
          > with it, I
          > think it would not a suitable short cut to sewing the hem on a veil.

          I couldn't agree more. When you consider the delicacy and fine-ness of
          the mid- and later-priod veils, the thought of using something so stiff
          and heavy as glue or "medieval fray-check" (whatever that is) is fairly
          unrealistic.

          I've had excellent luck with tiny rolled hems, and even deliberately
          fraying straight edges (just strip off 2 or 3 threads), and see no reason
          to glue raw edges.

          And Samia, that hem treatment sounds a lot like a "baby hem" that I
          learned in college - it's also useful for hems of skirts and cuffs :)

          > Yvianne de Castel d'Avignon
          > Magistra Laurae, AEthelmearc
          > (Formerly known as Eibhlin ni Chaoimh)

          Congratulations, BTW - when did that happen? (you and I haven't been in
          touch in years)

          Danabren

          ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^ ^v^
          "It isn't what they say about you, it's what they whisper."
          -Errol Flynn

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        • Katherine Barich
          ... I know that I have read about the use of gum arabic and wax as late period edge finishes. However, this was discussed more in conjunction with pinked
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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            >I couldn't agree more. When you consider the delicacy and fine-ness of<BR>
            >the mid- and later-priod veils, the thought of using something so stiff<BR>
            >and heavy as glue or "medieval fray-check" (whatever that is) is fairly<BR>
            >unrealistic.<BR>

            I know that I have read about the use of gum arabic and wax as late period
            edge finishes. However, this was discussed more in conjunction with pinked
            clothing. What I would like to suggest is that perhaps there was no
            hem and that the veils were starched. Maybe the sizing kept the veil
            from fraying.

            I recall that a will in early 16th century Germany lists a box with items
            for use on the elaborately folded linen headdresses (the 'Sturz') included
            starch. It might make for an interesting experiment.

            FWIW - in my opinion the AIPON site could be vastly improved by allowing
            the person displaying the outfit to include documentation. I love looking
            at what people have done, but think that the idea of a numerical rating
            is counter productive. Comments, however, can be enlightening but I
            get irritated by instant experts.

            ><BR>
            >I've had excellent luck with tiny rolled hems, and even deliberately<BR>
            >fraying straight edges (just strip off 2 or 3 threads), and see no reason<BR>
            >to glue raw edges.<BR>

            I love tiny rolled hems, but they take some practice to master!

            Katherine Barich
          • Joyce
            I think that they think that you glued your hem. Cut and glue finished would probably be referring to heat and bond or steam a seam finishing. It s what I
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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              I think that they think that you glued your hem.
              Cut and glue finished would probably be referring to 'heat and bond' or
              'steam a seam' finishing. It's what I do when I'm in a tearing hurry to
              finish a hem for something that won't get a lot of wear. I haven't really
              used it when I'm trying to do something accurate, or something that I'm
              tossing in the washing machine a lot. Basically it's an iron-in glue -
              looks like fibery wisps, you press your hem, insert the stuff, and press it
              again. It's glued together.
              Period? they had glues, but I doubt they'd use them for hemming a veil.
              regarding the AIPON site, I like to look at people pics, and read their
              comments on what they did that they liked, and what they'd do differently
              next time, but I quit reading the rating comments when they started marking
              down people for 'bad backgrounds' because their picture was taken in their
              home. Most of the comments should just be taken to alt.flame, if it's
              still in business. It's amazing that people still think that 'vicious' ==
              'witty'


              At 01:17 PM 8/26/2003 +0000, you wrote:
              >-
              >Message: 1
              > Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:47:08 -0400
              > From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@...>
              >Subject: "glue finished?"
              >
              >Hi Folks,
              >
              >With a few misgivings, I posted a picture of me to the "Am I Period Or
              >Not" humor/parody/lord-knows-what site. Its been amusing to read the
              >comments of people who want to get in touch with their Inner Vicious
              >Snark (and some of them don't let up when commenting on new-person
              >attempts, which is really rude, imho). However, some comments have been
              >useful, including one mentioning a technique I've never heard of.
              >
              >"Hems on your wimple/veil too heavy. More likely cut and glue-finished."
              >
              >Has anyone here heard of this before? Is there a period source?
              >
              >I have no doubt that the hem is too heavy; the veil is cotton muslin,
              >machine sewn, because it's really just a draft hat. So a rolled and
              >ironed hem would be much tinier. Or this glue-finish idea, for which I
              >need more information.
              >
              >Here's the aforementioned website:
              >http://amiperiodornot.com/details.mhtml?image_id=322
              >
              >Here's my several-years-old webpage about the hat:
              >http://www.virtue.to/articles/middle_class.html
              >
              >--
              >Cynthia Virtue and/or
              >Cynthia du Pré Argent
              >
              >Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
              >
              >
              >_
            • Generys ferch Ednuyed
              As far as I know, the AIPON site was meant to be a *parody* of www.amihotornot.com - not something to be taken seriously. Generys
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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                As far as I know, the AIPON site was meant to be a *parody* of
                www.amihotornot.com - not something to be taken seriously.

                Generys

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: sentto-312294-1239-1061903928-
                > Generys=blazemail.com@... [mailto:sentto-312294-1239-
                > 1061903928-Generys=blazemail.com@...] On Behalf Of
                > Zohra Rawling
                > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:17 AM
                > To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                > On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 08:20 AM, Cynthia Virtue wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > Because I wanted to find out if people uploading pictures were warned
                > > that they are opening themselves to lampooning and meanness. Which
                > > they
                > > aren't; there's no warning of any kind in the upload process. I sent a
                > > note to the webmistress, but it's clear she doesn't intend to answer.
                > > She has other useful websites; I don't know her intentions with this
                > > one. I have my theories, one of which is a psych experiment.
                >
                > no they aren't warned, I think it is horrid to be perfectly honest!
                >
                > I have yet to find a truly useful comment on those pages...just miles
                > and miles of mean, nasty comments.
                >
                > It wasn't an experiment, it is for real.
                > I know the person who did it.
                >
                > I refuse to add anything to the site.
                > Besides I am fairly middle period, not *shiny* enough for the posters.
                >
                >
                > Ysabella
                > _____________________________________________________
                >
                > Women and Cats do what they do; there is nothing a man can do about it.
                > -Heinlein
                >
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              • Katherine Barich
                If that were the case why would it be important to limit voting from the same person to up the score as is stated in the sidebar I saw today? I don t take it
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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                  If that were the case why would it be important to limit voting from
                  the same person to 'up' the score as is stated in the sidebar I saw today?

                  I don't take it seriously, but the humor escapes me I guess.

                  Katherine Barich


                  ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                  From: "Generys ferch Ednuyed" <Generys@...>
                  Reply-To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:50:37 -0400

                  ><html><body>
                  >
                  >
                  ><tt>
                  ><BR>
                  >As far as I know, the AIPON site was meant to be a *parody* of<BR>
                  >www.amihotornot.com - not something to be taken seriously.<BR>
                  ><BR>
                  >Generys<BR>
                  ><BR>
                  >> -----Original Message-----<BR>
                  >> From: sentto-312294-1239-1061903928-<BR>
                  >> Generys=blazemail.com@... [mailto:sentto-312294-1239-<BR>
                  >> 1061903928-Generys=blazemail.com@...] On Behalf Of<BR>
                  >> Zohra Rawling<BR>
                  >> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:17 AM<BR>
                  >> To: SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 08:20  AM, Cynthia Virtue wrote:<BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> ><BR>
                  >> > Because I wanted to find out if people uploading pictures were warned<BR>
                  >> > that they are opening themselves to lampooning and meanness.  Which<BR>
                  >> > they<BR>
                  >> > aren't; there's no warning of any kind in the upload process.  I sent a<BR>
                  >> > note to the webmistress, but it's clear she doesn't intend to answer.<BR>
                  >> > She has other useful websites; I don't know her intentions with this<BR>
                  >> > one.  I have my theories, one of which is a psych experiment.<BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> no they aren't warned, I think it is horrid to be perfectly honest!<BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> I have yet to find a truly useful comment on those pages...just miles<BR>
                  >> and miles of mean, nasty comments.<BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> It wasn't an experiment, it is for real.<BR>
                  >> I know the person who did it.<BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> I refuse to add anything to the site.<BR>
                  >> Besides I am fairly middle period, not *shiny* enough for the posters.<BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> Ysabella<BR>
                  >> _____________________________________________________<BR>
                  >> <BR>
                  >> Women and Cats do what they do; there is nothing a man can do about it.<BR>
                  >> -Heinlein<BR>
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                • Dianne & Greg
                  I think a cut and glue finish would refer more to something similar to fray Check--run a line of glue along the edge and then cut, to prevent fraying.
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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                    I think a "cut and glue finish" would refer more to something similar to
                    fray Check--run a line of glue along the edge and then cut, to prevent
                    fraying. Similar to using wax or glue to prevent fraying on slashed or
                    pinked clothing.

                    And I'm not thick skinned enough to post ANYTHING on AIPON.

                    Laurensa
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Joyce" <joycebre@...>
                    To: <SCA-Milliners@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 2:31 PM
                    Subject: [SCA-Milliners] "glue finished?"


                    I think that they think that you glued your hem.
                    Cut and glue finished would probably be referring to 'heat and bond' or
                    'steam a seam' finishing. It's what I do when I'm in a tearing hurry to
                    finish a hem for something that won't get a lot of wear. I haven't really
                    used it when I'm trying to do something accurate, or something that I'm
                    tossing in the washing machine a lot. Basically it's an iron-in glue -
                    looks like fibery wisps, you press your hem, insert the stuff, and press it
                    again. It's glued together.
                  • Zohra Rawling
                    ... Well I know at least one person who is quite impressive in his knowledge of his given time period. Another woman who is well on her way. They will be
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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                      On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 11:39 AM, Richard Mowbray wrote:

                      >
                      > As for someone who knows everything about dress from a given time and
                      > place in period... I have my doubts about that.

                      Well I know at least one person who is quite impressive in his
                      knowledge of his given time period.
                      Another woman who is well on her way.

                      They will be honest about what they do not know.

                      There are many that do not acknowledge their limitations.

                      To me, that is an issue when done nastily and without any regards for
                      another persons feelings.


                      Ysabella

                      _____________________________________________________

                      Women and Cats do what they do; there is nothing a man can do about it.
                      -Heinlein
                    • Cynthia Virtue
                      ... THat s what the webmistress told me a while back when I emailed her (the first time.) But it s clear from the comments that there are people who think
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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                        Generys ferch Ednuyed wrote:
                        > As far as I know, the AIPON site was meant to be a *parody* of
                        > www.amihotornot.com - not something to be taken seriously.

                        THat's what the webmistress told me a while back when I emailed her (the
                        first time.) But it's clear from the comments that there are people who
                        think it's a very serious site -- silly things (even slightly silly,
                        like garb for pets, actual medieval pictures, not to mention the Star
                        Trek uniform) get "stop wasting our time" comments. Then there are
                        comments in keeping with being silly, and then there are constructive
                        critisms. And then the remaining 75% is snarking, if it's anything
                        short of picture-perfect. You should read the amazing vitriol of some
                        of the posters to one of Drea's pictures.

                        It would be a better site if there was some direction given to posters.

                        As for the voting, I don't think people are artificially inflating the
                        ratings. I think they repeat vote to answer comments -- you can't just
                        add a comment, you must vote at the same time.

                        --
                        Cynthia Virtue and/or
                        Cynthia du Pré Argent

                        Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
                      • Denise Nelson
                        ... The only way to do that is to have people willing to comment to give the direction. The site is made by the commenters, and it s unfortunate that some
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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                          Cynthia Virtue wrote:

                          > It would be a better site if there was some direction given to
                          > posters.

                          The only way to do that is to have people willing to comment to give the
                          direction. The site is made by the commenters, and it's unfortunate that
                          some nasty people have scared off those with knowledge and talent.

                          In short: if you aren't offering suggestions on subjects you are
                          knowledgeable about; why not?

                          At this point you're more a part of the problem than the solution
                          (contributing to the overwhelming number of snarks by not balancing
                          things out).

                          I've posted pictures and have been entertained, gratified, and curious
                          about comments made. The negatives I've just shrugged off. Believe me,
                          I was one of the first to post a dog and there are some NEGATIVE comments
                          about that!

                          Alienor de Narbonne
                          (I'm in 288, 258, and 216)
                          --
                          Denise Nelson
                          denisen@...

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                        • Cynthia Virtue
                          ... You re making a pretty big assumption there, about what I have or have not done on the site. And even if you postulate readers that don t assist by useful
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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                            Denise Nelson wrote:
                            > At this point you're more a part of the problem than the solution
                            > (contributing to the overwhelming number of snarks by not balancing
                            > things out).

                            You're making a pretty big assumption there, about what I have or have
                            not done on the site.

                            And even if you postulate readers that don't assist by useful
                            commentary, there is a difference between that, a sin of omission, and
                            deliberately being snarky, which is a sin of comission. One may not be
                            able to right wrongs everywhere, but it's not at all the same thing as
                            committing them.

                            --
                            Cynthia Virtue and/or
                            Cynthia du Pré Argent

                            Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
                          • Denise Nelson
                            Actually you re misreading one of my pronouns. My fault, as it wasn t ... The you in the second paragraph refers not to the specific you (ie Cynthia
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 26, 2003
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                              Actually you're misreading one of my pronouns. My fault, as it wasn't
                              clear. To requote the two relevant paragraphs:

                              > In short: if you aren't offering suggestions on subjects you are
                              > knowledgeable about; why not?

                              > At this point you're more a part of the problem than the solution
                              > (contributing to the overwhelming number of snarks by not balancing
                              > things out)."

                              The 'you' in the second paragraph refers not to the specific 'you' (ie
                              Cynthia Virtue), but to the general 'you' (ie those on this yahoogroup
                              who aren't offering postive suggestions) that I addressed in the first
                              paragraph. If the first paragraph doesn't apply to you, neither does the
                              second.

                              I *am* curious if you have offered help, because I haven't seen you sign
                              any comments. But the site is large and that may just be happenstance.

                              About the second part of your post... ::shrug:: There is a pretty big
                              difference there, but I am unable to listen to complaints without
                              pointing out ways to fix things. Blame my mother. ::grin::

                              I guess I just find it more productive to make positive comments where I
                              can than on AIPON to snark the website on this list (which, to my
                              knowledge the webmistress does not read). Go figure.

                              Alienor de Narbonne

                              On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:02:59 -0400, "Cynthia Virtue"
                              <cvirtue@...> said:

                              > Denise Nelson wrote:
                              > > At this point you're more a part of the problem than the solution
                              > > (contributing to the overwhelming number of snarks by not balancing
                              > > things out).
                              > You're making a pretty big assumption there, about what I have or have
                              > not done on the site.
                              > And even if you postulate readers that don't assist by useful
                              > commentary, there is a difference between that, a sin of omission, and
                              > deliberately being snarky, which is a sin of comission. One may not
                              > be
                              > able to right wrongs everywhere, but it's not at all the same thing as
                              > committing them.
                              > --
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                              > Cynthia du Pré Argent
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                              --
                              http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service?
                            • Cynthia Virtue
                              ... Ah. Apologies. ... I have posted comments which I hope were helpful. I don t usually sign them. Most of my help to other costumers is via local classes
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 27, 2003
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                                Denise Nelson wrote:
                                > Actually you're misreading one of my pronouns. My fault, as it wasn't
                                > clear.

                                Ah. Apologies.

                                > I *am* curious if you have offered help, because I haven't seen you sign
                                > any comments. But the site is large and that may just be happenstance.

                                I have posted comments which I hope were helpful. I don't usually sign
                                them.

                                Most of my help to other costumers is via local classes and my website,
                                which is read by thousands of people per month. That fills up a lot of
                                the time I have for sharing such things; commentary on other people's
                                sites is limited. You might find it interesting; it's at
                                http://www.virtue.to

                                > I guess I just find it more productive to make positive comments where I
                                > can than on AIPON to snark the website on this list (which, to my
                                > knowledge the webmistress does not read).

                                The discussion started because I wanted to find out if anyone had heard
                                of the potentially period technique of "glue finishing," which someone
                                suggested on AIPON when looking at my hat picture. It digressed to
                                talking about the website.

                                Which remains the question: is discussing the website here "snarking?"
                                I don't believe so. Some people don't like the website, some do. Most
                                others haven't offered their opinions. Snarking is much different than
                                discussing something, even if there are negative opinions.

                                --
                                Cynthia Virtue and/or
                                Cynthia du Pré Argent

                                Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
                              • Denise Nelson
                                ... Yep, I ve seen it before. It s a good piece of work. ... Hmm, what s your definition of snarking? I generally think of it as making unhelpful negative
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 27, 2003
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                                  > Most of my help to other costumers is via local classes and my website,
                                  > which is read by thousands of people per month. That fills up a lot of
                                  > the time I have for sharing such things; commentary on other people's
                                  > sites is limited. You might find it interesting; it's at
                                  > http://www.virtue.to
                                  >
                                  Yep, I've seen it before. It's a good piece of work.

                                  > Which remains the question: is discussing the website here "snarking?"
                                  > I don't believe so. Some people don't like the website, some do. Most
                                  > others haven't offered their opinions. Snarking is much different than
                                  > discussing something, even if there are negative opinions.
                                  >
                                  Hmm, what's your definition of snarking? I generally think of it as
                                  making unhelpful negative comments (which some members of this list have
                                  done, though you have offered suggestions for improvement).

                                  Unless there's some objection, I'd suggest we take this discussion off
                                  list; it's gotten quite off topic!

                                  Alienor de Narbonne
                                  (denisen@...)
                                • Cynthia Virtue
                                  I think most of us are pretty much done with discussing the website in particular, but I think this side issue may be of general interest. (Feel free to send
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 27, 2003
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                                    I think most of us are pretty much done with discussing the website in
                                    particular, but I think this side issue may be of general interest.
                                    (Feel free to send brickbats by email...)

                                    Denise Nelson wrote:
                                    > Hmm, what's your definition of snarking? I generally think of it as
                                    > making unhelpful negative comments

                                    I believe that there is a difference between negative comments to a
                                    person about their clothing (snarking) and not-dissimilar comments to a
                                    website or commercial venture.

                                    If I've put up a website, or am purporting to sell medieval clothing to
                                    to others, I've entered a public realm. I'm asking to be noticed, to be
                                    evaluated, to be critiqued. Because I'm disseminating ideas, rather
                                    than just trying to clothe myself, I should be held to a higher standard
                                    of accuracy. Increased criticsm is part of the job, and if it is
                                    negative, it's part of the job to at least not have a breakdown if
                                    someone doesn't like what I've done.

                                    So I don't think you can snark at a website, or a bad-quality seller of
                                    allegedly historical clothing, only at people.

                                    --
                                    Cynthia Virtue and/or
                                    Cynthia du Pré Argent

                                    Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
                                  • Denise Nelson
                                    ... Ah, you re differentiating based on the publicness of the venture, while I m differentiating based on the intent of the comment. To use the same website
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 27, 2003
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                                      > I believe that there is a difference between negative comments to a
                                      > person about their clothing (snarking) and not-dissimilar comments to a
                                      > website or commercial venture.


                                      Ah, you're differentiating based on the 'publicness' of the venture,
                                      while I'm differentiating based on the intent of the comment.

                                      To use the same website example, if I was to say "xyz's clothing is
                                      awful; I'd never buy that!" I would define that as snarking. If I said
                                      "xyz is good here, but needs to tweak abc; still it's not worth my
                                      money" I wouldn't define that as snarking, but as criticism. In the
                                      first example there's no definate problems delineated, there's no
                                      attempt to educate, it's just negative. In the second there's the
                                      opportunity to learn from the comment.

                                      We're different, that's okay. ::grin::

                                      > Increased criticsm is part of the job, and if it is
                                      > negative, it's part of the job to at least not have a breakdown if
                                      > someone doesn't like what I've done.


                                      Okay, that is a very strange thing to say. You're implying that if
                                      someone makes negative comments about my (private) garb I'm not
                                      required to not have a breakdown (in other words, it's okay to have a
                                      breakdown)? Somehow, I doubt that's what you meant.

                                      Alienor de Narbonne
                                    • Cynthia Virtue
                                      ... It s exactly what I meant. If someone is vicious to you, a personal and upset reaction is understandable and forgiveable. Of course, it s *best* if you
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 27, 2003
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                                        Denise Nelson wrote:
                                        >>Increased criticsm is part of the job, and if it is
                                        >>negative, it's part of the job to at least not have a breakdown if
                                        >>someone doesn't like what I've done.
                                        >
                                        > Okay, that is a very strange thing to say. You're implying that if
                                        > someone makes negative comments about my (private) garb I'm not
                                        > required to not have a breakdown (in other words, it's okay to have a
                                        > breakdown)? Somehow, I doubt that's what you meant.

                                        It's exactly what I meant. If someone is vicious to you, a personal and
                                        upset reaction is understandable and forgiveable. Of course, it's
                                        *best* if you can give 'em the Miss Manners Freeze, but that's not
                                        always possible.

                                        --
                                        Cynthia Virtue and/or
                                        Cynthia du Pré Argent

                                        Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
                                      • Ella Lynoure Rajamaki
                                        ... What I would change to make a similar but better site: - require registration before commenting or voting. The information given would be mostly held
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 28, 2003
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                                          On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Denise Nelson wrote:

                                          > The only way to do that is to have people willing to comment to give the
                                          > direction. The site is made by the commenters, and it's unfortunate that
                                          > some nasty people have scared off those with knowledge and talent.

                                          What I would change to make a similar but better site:

                                          - require registration before commenting or voting. The information given
                                          would be mostly held private, but it would include the person rating
                                          their own knowledge in different time period (including a picture of a
                                          costume they have made for each, if they want to be taken seriously).
                                          The registation information does not need to be linked with the
                                          comments.

                                          - allow commenting without voting

                                          - include search feature, so that people can look at photos of costumes of
                                          their favourite time period and do not have to vote on costumes that
                                          they do not know much about. They could also look at the photos of the
                                          self-claimed experts.

                                          - show vote results and comments in various different ways, e.g. only
                                          votes by users who claim to be experts in the period or only by those
                                          who say they don't know anything

                                          Of course, such site could still be abused and would require some
                                          moderators, but likelyhood of abuse could be limited by kick-starting the
                                          site with some real experts already in it to give good example to others.

                                          --
                                          Lynoure Rajamaki
                                          lynoure@...
                                          http://www.lynoure.com
                                          costume/computer girl
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