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Ghee

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  • Rosie
    Has anyone ever tried making ointments using ghee as the fat? Nawojka
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 7, 2009
      Has anyone ever tried making ointments using ghee as the fat?

      Nawojka
    • Chris Carpenter
      As is my habit... I get curious about things I know just a little about and look further, and I checked Ghee..... here is something from Wiki you might all
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 8, 2009
        As is my habit... I get curious about things I know just a little about and look further, and I checked Ghee..... here is something from Wiki you might all find interesting. I most certainly did.

        "Like any clarified butter, ghee is composed almost entirely of saturated fat. Ghee has been shown to reduce serum cholesterol in one rodent study.[4] Studies in Wistar rats have revealed one mechanism by which ghee reduces plasma LDL cholesterol. This action is mediated by an increased secretion of biliary lipids. The nutrition facts label found on bottled cow's ghee produced in the USA indicates 8 mg of cholesterol per teaspoon.

        Indian restaurants and some households may use hydrogenated vegetable oil (also known as vanaspati, Dalda, or "vegetable ghee") in place of ghee for economic reasons. This "vegetable ghee" is actually polyunsaturated or monounsaturated partially hydrogenated vegetable oil, a trans fat. Trans fats are increasingly linked to serious chronic health conditions. Not only is "vegetable ghee" implicated in causing high LDL (In a 2007 animal study, South African scientists found consumption of red palm oil significantly protected the heart from the adverse effects of a high-cholesterol diet.[5] - from Palm Oil). The term Shuddh Ghee, however, is not officially enforced in many regions, so partially hydrogenated oils are marketed as Pure Ghee in some areas. Where this is illegal in India, law-enforcement often cracks down on the sale of fake ghee.[6] Ghee is also sometimes called desi (country-made) ghee or asli (genuine) ghee to distinguish it from "vegetable ghee".

        When cooking, it can be unhealthy to heat polyunsaturated oils such as vegetable oils to high temperatures. Doing so creates peroxides and other free radicals. These substances lead to a variety of health problems and diseases. On the other hand, ghee has a very high smoke point and doesn't burn or smoke easily during cooking. Because ghee has the more stable saturated bonds (i.e., it lacks double bonds which are easily damaged by heat) it is not as likely to form dangerous free radicals or advanced glycation endproducts when cooking.[citation needed]

        Ghee's short chain fatty acids are also metabolized very readily by the body, which would seem to negate concerns of its health effects. However, there is significant controversy between traditional oils and modern industrially processed oils which tends to heavily cloud the facts and issues surrounding oil consumption."(Wiki Quote)



        What I find interesting about this, is saturated fats cause Insulin Resistance, or Syndrome X.. https://health.google.com/health/ref/Metabolic+syndrome , which in turn causes all of the following diseases....

        diabetes mellitus
        obesity
        insulin resistance
        high blood pressure
        type 2 diabetes
        atherosclerosis
        heart disease
        polycystic ovary syndrome (pcos)

        This is what causes people to become fat and to get Diabetes. (the article is kinda screwed about saying IR is caused by Syndrome X, but it is actually right on the dot on the rest). Yes, its the Margarines.. crisco.. deep fat fried foods... most mayo's... that cause these problems. If you were to use Ghee instead of those for these, you may save your child from a lifetime of heart disease obesity, and diabetes.
      • Warrior Chef
        Also review the Pot Belly Syndrome in relation to these diseases as well. On another note, I ve used Ghee for 20 years or so, finding it a flavorful addition
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 8, 2009
          Also review the Pot Belly Syndrome in relation to these diseases as well.
           
          On another note, I've used Ghee for 20 years or so, finding it a flavorful addition to cooking--along with a number of Indian spices.
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:37 AM
          Subject: [SCA-Herbalist] Re: Ghee

           

          As is my habit... I get curious about things I know just a little about and look further, and I checked Ghee..... here is something from Wiki you might all find interesting. I most certainly did.

          "Like any clarified butter, ghee is composed almost entirely of saturated fat. Ghee has been shown to reduce serum cholesterol in one rodent study.[4] Studies in Wistar rats have revealed one mechanism by which ghee reduces plasma LDL cholesterol. This action is mediated by an increased secretion of biliary lipids. The nutrition facts label found on bottled cow's ghee produced in the USA indicates 8 mg of cholesterol per teaspoon.

          Indian restaurants and some households may use hydrogenated vegetable oil (also known as vanaspati, Dalda, or "vegetable ghee") in place of ghee for economic reasons. This "vegetable ghee" is actually polyunsaturated or monounsaturated partially hydrogenated vegetable oil, a trans fat. Trans fats are increasingly linked to serious chronic health conditions. Not only is "vegetable ghee" implicated in causing high LDL (In a 2007 animal study, South African scientists found consumption of red palm oil significantly protected the heart from the adverse effects of a high-cholesterol diet.[5] - from Palm Oil). The term Shuddh Ghee, however, is not officially enforced in many regions, so partially hydrogenated oils are marketed as Pure Ghee in some areas. Where this is illegal in India, law-enforcement often cracks down on the sale of fake ghee.[6] Ghee is also sometimes called desi (country-made) ghee or asli (genuine) ghee to distinguish it from "vegetable ghee".

          When cooking, it can be unhealthy to heat polyunsaturated oils such as vegetable oils to high temperatures. Doing so creates peroxides and other free radicals. These substances lead to a variety of health problems and diseases. On the other hand, ghee has a very high smoke point and doesn't burn or smoke easily during cooking. Because ghee has the more stable saturated bonds (i.e., it lacks double bonds which are easily damaged by heat) it is not as likely to form dangerous free radicals or advanced glycation endproducts when cooking.[citation needed]

          Ghee's short chain fatty acids are also metabolized very readily by the body, which would seem to negate concerns of its health effects. However, there is significant controversy between traditional oils and modern industrially processed oils which tends to heavily cloud the facts and issues surrounding oil consumption. "(Wiki Quote)

          What I find interesting about this, is saturated fats cause Insulin Resistance, or Syndrome X.. https://health. google.com/ health/ref/ Metabolic+ syndrome , which in turn causes all of the following diseases....

          diabetes mellitus
          obesity
          insulin resistance
          high blood pressure
          type 2 diabetes
          atherosclerosis
          heart disease
          polycystic ovary syndrome (pcos)

          This is what causes people to become fat and to get Diabetes. (the article is kinda screwed about saying IR is caused by Syndrome X, but it is actually right on the dot on the rest). Yes, its the Margarines.. crisco.. deep fat fried foods... most mayo's... that cause these problems. If you were to use Ghee instead of those for these, you may save your child from a lifetime of heart disease obesity, and diabetes.

        • Jennifer Heise
          ... need to have a good sense of their family health background. Both Type I and Type II diabetes have been consistently shown to be genetic in origin, though
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 8, 2009

            This is what causes people to become fat and to get Diabetes. (the article is kinda screwed about saying IR is caused by Syndrome X, but it is actually right on the dot on the rest). Yes, its the Margarines.. crisco.. deep fat fried foods... most mayo's... that cause these problems. If you were to use Ghee instead of those for these, you may save your child from a lifetime of heart disease obesity, and diabetes.

            While we're discussing modern medicine, it's important to note that humans need to have a good sense of their family health background. Both Type I and Type II diabetes have been consistently shown to be genetic in origin, though the expression of Type II diabetes can be avoided or controlled by controlling diet. That means that it's especially important to talk to your relatives and KNOW if you have a first or second order relative (first would be parents, children, brothers & sisters) who have diabetes.

            Having just suffered through Gestational Diabetes (pancreatic insufficiency specific to pregnancy, a condition that can cause stillbirths and which was first clinically described in 1964), I've heard a lot about diabetes lately.

              However, the diabetic-overweight connection seems to be very strongly marked in terms of foods that have a high glycemic index, which fats don't have. Diabetes, after all, is a disease related to blood-sugar, not blood fat! As I understand it, the trans-fats are now fingered in cholesterol, where they were once recommended as a lower-impact alternative to animal fats.

            Dragging the topic back to historical antecedents, though, it's clear that our medieval predecessors did not consume trans-fats, but relied extensively on animal fats-- some of which are now considered to be very fattening, such as bacon-fat, lard, suet and the middle-eastern 'fat from a sheep's tail'! (I'm not sure what the modern take on chicken schmaltz is, though I have come across a few period recipes that call for it.)

            Clarified butter (along the lines of ghee) keeps longer and can be heated to higher temperatures than plain butter, which seems to be why you sometimes see recipes in the European body of recipes for clarifying butter. Olive oil, the panacea of modern 'healthy' cooking shows as a cooking fat in some recipes, but not as much as you would expect.

            From what I've been able to tell, olive oil, poppyseed or nut oils, can be used in making a vegetarian version of period vegetable dishes that call for animal fats in order to make a 'lenten' version that is relatively consistent with period practice. Butter or clarified butter could be used for the same purpose on meatless days during the medieval year, including Friday, when milk and eggs were allowed but not meat. (The rules for Lent were stricter than those for general meatless days.)

          • Lila Richards
            ... I don t know about Crisco, because I ve not seen it here in New Zealand, but as far as margarine is concerned, what you say is completely at variance with
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 8, 2009
              Chris Carpenter wrote:
               

              Yes, its the Margarines.. crisco.. deep fat fried foods... most mayo's... that cause these problems.



              I don't know about Crisco, because I've not seen it here in New Zealand, but as far as margarine is concerned, what you say is completely at variance with all the health advice I've ever seen or heard. Again, I don't know about the US, but margarine sold here is made from healthy oils such as olive, canola or sunflower, and is extremely low in transfats. Butter, on the other hand, is basically pure saturated fat, and I don't see how clarifying it to make ghee would change this.


              Sinech.
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            • Trey Capnerhurst
              It makes no difference what kind of healthy fat you make it from. Margarine has been called liquid plastic , due to the similarity of chemical structure and
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 8, 2009
                It makes no difference what kind of healthy fat you make it from.  Margarine has been called "liquid plastic", due to the similarity of chemical structure and the body's inability to digest it.  I would take a ton of butter or ghee over a cup of margarine any day. 
                 
                "Those in the know tell us that the process of hydrogenation converts fat into a type of cellulose that is not unlike plastic. If this is the case, then it is little wonder that hydrogenated fats do not turn rancid - for the same reason that plastic does not turn rancid. The problem being of course that plastic of any sort has no place in the human body - let alone in our diet...

                `With an enemy as dangerous and harmful to health as hydrogenation, I make no compromise. There can be no compromise. I maintain it has no place in any food used by humans or animals.

                `Once the oil has gone through the process of hydrogenation, it is no longer an oil but a plastic, a celluloid or perhaps I may stretch a point and call it a fat. I believe the end result is a useless, counterfeit, synthetic, plastic, celluloid-like, harmful chemical concoction that is an insult to human intelligence.

                `Some of the oils used in margarine might have been vegetable at the onset, but any one or all of the 18 or more devitalizing processes to which it was subjected, destroyed any vestige of naturalness and turned it into a synthetic chemical or plastic.

                `Yes, I maintain that hydrogenation is more dangerous than drugs, more dangerous than sprays and more dangerous than chemical fertilizers. I clearly emphasize that hydrogenation is a greater danger to our health and to our well-being than any other factor in our society. (J. H. Tobe, Margarine and Your Heart Attack, pp. 15, 8, 39, 1)"

                 
                "Although the trans fatty acids are chemically "monounsaturated" or "polyunsaturated" they are considered so different from the cis monounsaturated or polyunsaturated fatty acids that they can not be legally designated as unsaturated for purposes of labeling. Most of the trans fatty acids (although chemically still unsaturated) produced by the partial hydrogenation process are now classified in the same category as saturated fats.

                Trans fat has both the benefits and drawbacks of a saturated fat. On the plus side, it has a longer shelf life than regular vegetable fat and is solid at room temperature. The major negative is that trans fat tends to raise "bad" LDL- cholesterol and lower "good" HDL-cholesterol, although not as much as saturated fat. Trans fat is found in margarine, baked goods such as doughnuts and Danish pastry, deep-fried foods like fried chicken and French-fried potatoes, snack chips, imitation cheese, and confectionary fats. "  http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/558hydrogenation.html

                "After closely scrutinizing data from scientific studies and reviews, most European countries have either banned hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated oils altogether or have instituted future dates for elimination of their use in foods. These government actions concerning the trans fatty acids (hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated oils) is directly related to studies that link trans fatty acid (hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated oil) consumption from processed foods to the development of diabetes, cancer and cardiovascular disease.

                Hydrogenation of oils, with removal of essential fatty acids, is used in the food industry for the sole purpose of prolonging the shelf life of processed foods (to maximize profits). Read the following documents to inform yourself of the potential health consequences of trans fats used by the food industry. " http://www.purica.com/holistic_living/healthy_lifestyle/diet_and_nutrition/hydrogenated_oils.htm

                 

                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:54 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Herbalist] Re: Ghee

                 

                Chris Carpenter wrote:

                 

                Yes, its the Margarines.. crisco.. deep fat fried foods... most mayo's... that cause these problems.



                I don't know about Crisco, because I've not seen it here in New Zealand, but as far as margarine is concerned, what you say is completely at variance with all the health advice I've ever seen or heard. Again, I don't know about the US, but margarine sold here is made from healthy oils such as olive, canola or sunflower, and is extremely low in transfats. Butter, on the other hand, is basically pure saturated fat, and I don't see how clarifying it to make ghee would change this.


                Sinech.
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              • Lila Richards
                ... Well, my cholesterol went way up when I used butter for a year instead of margarine (and I have a virtually meat-free diet). Modern margarine is made using
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 8, 2009
                  Trey Capnerhurst wrote:
                  > It makes no difference what kind of healthy fat you make it from. Margarine has been called "liquid plastic", due to the similarity of chemical structure and the body's inability to digest it. I would take a ton of butter or ghee over a cup of margarine any day.
                  >

                  Well, my cholesterol went way up when I used butter for a year instead
                  of margarine (and I have a virtually meat-free diet). Modern margarine
                  is made using vegetable oils such as sunflower, canola or olive, rather
                  than the animal fats and coconut or palm oil used in the past, by
                  processes that produce almost no trans fatty acids. A lot of the
                  negative comments you read about margarine refer to margarine made by
                  processes that are no longer used (at least not where I live - I don't
                  know anything about American production methods). e.g. The margarine I
                  have at the moment is made from sunflower and canola oils, and contains,
                  per 100g, 12g saturated fat, 0.43g transfat, and 12g mono-unsaturated
                  fat, less than 3mg cholesterol, and has vitamins D and E. Butter, by
                  comparison contains, per 100g, 51g saturated fat, 21g mono-unsaturated
                  fat, 3g polyunsaturated fat, and may have added beta carotene to improve
                  its colour (as does margarine). You'd also want to know what
                  affiliations the people making the negative comments have. I've seen and
                  heard numerous comments by medical people with no axe to grind that
                  margarine, as currently produced, is way more healthy than butter, which
                  is pretty much pure fat, and cholesterol-producing fat at that.

                  Oh, and the 'plastic' reference is, I suspect, a misinterpretation of
                  the use of the word in its sense of 'malleable', rather than any
                  similarity to the plastics used for toys, containers, etc.

                  Sinech.

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                • Dianna Haught
                  Research is always ahead of doctors in nutritional information and the information that reaches the public. I moderate a list for people who have certain
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 8, 2009
                    Research is always ahead of doctors in nutritional information and the
                    information that reaches the public. I moderate a list for people who
                    have certain digestive issues and so tend read up on research. The most
                    recent research on heart disease and cholesterol seems to be indicating
                    that the previous research on heart disease and cholesterol was mostly
                    flawed. What the current studies seem to indicate is thatnatural fats
                    such as meat fats don't cause heart disease while manufactured,
                    hydrogenated fats do (meaning that butter is healthier than maragarine).
                    High LDL in the diet has been promoted for years as a leading factor
                    in heart disease, but the latest studies haven't borne that out. Rather
                    just the opposite seems to be true. One doctor has come out so far as
                    to say that the statin medicines given to people to control cholesterol
                    are more dangerous than then having high cholesterol levels.

                    Australian researchers found that people who eat a diet high in protein
                    while dieting lose weight faster than people who avoid eating meat.

                    All of us have grown up believing the facts we've been given, but as
                    research advances, the "facts" are redefined and changed. When I was
                    growing up I was told that a diet high in carbs and low in meat was the
                    best. Now I hear that meat is healthy, carbs are bad and processed
                    foods are poison. I've personally come to the conclusion that
                    everything I was ever told about good nutrition is bunk. LOL I think
                    maybe the advice that you not eat anything your great-grandmother
                    wouldn't recognize as food may the best advice ever.

                    On the medieval side: The Tarim mummies, for those who aren't familiar
                    with them, are a group of natural mummies found in the Tarim basin of
                    China. Despite being Bronze age and being buried long before anyone
                    from the west was supposed to (by our knowledge) traveling that far
                    eastward, they appear to be of Celtic origin and the adults were over 6
                    ft. tall. There is evidence that they actually introduced writing and
                    chariots to China. So the myth that our medieval ancestors were shorter
                    than us is once again debunked. The myth that our medieval ancestors
                    lived shorter lifespans is also debunked by these and other finds. The
                    question is do you think it was diet?
                    Avacyn

                    > I don't know about Crisco, because I've not seen it here in New Zealand,
                    > but as far as margarine is concerned, what you say is completely at
                    > variance with all the health advice I've ever seen or heard. Again, I
                    > don't know about the US, but margarine sold here is made from healthy
                    > oils such as olive, canola or sunflower, and is extremely low in
                    > transfats. Butter, on the other hand, is basically pure saturated fat,
                    > and I don't see how clarifying it to make ghee would change this.
                    >
                    >
                    > Sinech.
                  • Jennifer Heise
                    Ladies & gents, I know I participated in this discussion, but can I get you to at least TRY to bring this round to, if not medieval or renaissance
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 8, 2009
                      Ladies & gents,

                      I know I participated in this discussion, but can I get you to at least TRY to bring this round to, if not medieval or renaissance herbalism/medical practice, at least HERBALISM?

                      I'm sure there are lots of lists out there for discussing modern alternative medicine... this is about pre-modern medicine though!

                      p.s. I just read an article talking about the works of 14th c. master surgeon John of Arderne and how he gives directions for making oil of roses and oil of chamomile. Now I have to get ahold of his treatise. (Reprinted as Treatises of fistula in ano, hæmorrhoids, and clysters, )

                      On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Lila Richards <lilar@...> wrote:
                       

                      Trey Capnerhurst wrote:
                      > It makes no difference what kind of healthy fat you make it from. Margarine has been called "liquid plastic", due to the similarity of chemical structure and the body's inability to digest it. I would take a ton of butter or ghee over a cup of margarine any day.
                      >

                      Well, my cholesterol went way up when I used butter for a year instead
                      of margarine (and I have a virtually meat-free diet). Modern margarine
                      is made using vegetable oils such as sunflower, canola or olive, rather
                      than the animal fats and coconut or palm oil used in the past, by
                      processes that produce almost no trans fatty acids. A lot of the
                      negative comments you read about margarine refer to margarine made by
                      processes that are no longer used (at least not where I live - I don't
                      know anything about American production methods). e.g. The margarine I
                      have at the moment is made from sunflower and canola oils, and contains,
                      per 100g, 12g saturated fat, 0.43g transfat, and 12g mono-unsaturated
                      fat, less than 3mg cholesterol, and has vitamins D and E. Butter, by
                      comparison contains, per 100g, 51g saturated fat, 21g mono-unsaturated
                      fat, 3g polyunsaturated fat, and may have added beta carotene to improve
                      its colour (as does margarine). You'd also want to know what
                      affiliations the people making the negative comments have. I've seen and
                      heard numerous comments by medical people with no axe to grind that
                      margarine, as currently produced, is way more healthy than butter, which
                      is pretty much pure fat, and cholesterol-producing fat at that.

                      Oh, and the 'plastic' reference is, I suspect, a misinterpretation of
                      the use of the word in its sense of 'malleable', rather than any
                      similarity to the plastics used for toys, containers, etc.

                      Sinech.

                      ____________________________________________
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                    • Jennifer Heise
                      If I remember correctly, the whole average lifespan calculation for the middle ages was skewed not only by high infant mortality but by the many things that
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 8, 2009
                        If I remember correctly, the whole 'average lifespan' calculation for the middle ages was skewed not only by high infant mortality but by the many things that killed people in the middle ages that don't kill us now. Nowadays if they get you to the hospital in time, even if your brain dies the rest of you can probably be kept alive; in those days even simple things could kill you, and there were a lot more deadly accidents and diseases we don't get.

                        For instance, appendicitis would likely have been deadly-- it  was probably diagnosed as a 'surfeit of...' whatever! (I have in my possession a circa 1920 herbal medicine book that says the practice of operating for appendicitis is just a fad, brought on by the appendectomy of an English Royal at the turn of the century, and that appendectomies are always unnecessary.)

                        I was also thinking about how often the herbal treatments for lack of menstruation that we see in our medieval books may have actually been treatments for PMS or even pallatives for Pelvic Inflammatory Disease, ovarian cysts, or other things that we don't suffer from nowadays without treatment and therefore don't think of as amenorrhea.

                        -- Jadwiga


                        On the medieval side: The Tarim mummies, for those who aren't familiar
                        with them, are a group of natural mummies found in the Tarim basin of
                        China. Despite being Bronze age and being buried long before anyone
                        from the west was supposed to (by our knowledge) traveling that far
                        eastward, they appear to be of Celtic origin and the adults were over 6
                        ft. tall. There is evidence that they actually introduced writing and
                        chariots to China. So the myth that our medieval ancestors were shorter
                        than us is once again debunked. The myth that our medieval ancestors
                        lived shorter lifespans is also debunked by these and other finds. The
                        question is do you think it was diet?
                        Avacyn


                      • Alicia Carr Mitsch
                        I believe the original question was about recipes using ghee for ointments, not food.  So far no one has addressed that particular question, and I know I for
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 8, 2009

                          I believe the original question was about recipes using ghee for ointments, not food.  So far no one has addressed that particular question, and I know I for one am interested in the response.  I have seen modern Ayuverdic manuals calling for the use of ghee mixed with sesame oil as a daily moisturizer/tonic.  The manuals specifically call for the concoction to be used on the soles of the feet every night before bed, in theory to help draw out the toxins in the body and help restore a sense of equilibrium.  Has anyone seen any period recipes in Arabic or Hindu texts calling for the use of ghee in such a fashion?

                          Aldyth the Gentle

                        • Chris Carpenter
                          I know I participated in this discussion, but can I get you to at least TRY to bring this round to, if not medieval or renaissance herbalism/medical practice,
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 9, 2009
                            "I know I participated in this discussion, but can I get you to at least TRY to bring this round to, if not medieval or renaissance herbalism/medical practice, at least HERBALISM?" (Zadweiga's quote)

                            I am sorry if I annoyed you by going off on what seems like a tangent, Zadweiga, but I disagree. Herbalism is not about plants.. its supposed to be about pharmacy; how to treat illness's with natural remedies. In order for us to do this, we need to understand what those illness's are.. what caused them and how to address them. Yes, we must sometimes go to mundane knowledge and technology, but unless we do this, all we are doing is fishing in the dark about what the problem is and stabbing at solutions. I know this is period: to fish for solutions with no research; only period documented manuscripts, but some maladies are serious enough to use contemporary research to understand before we apply period herbalism. There are period solutions to Diabetes, and I will eventually venture them, but first we need to understand the causes of it or all we are doing is spouting references without actually practicing herbalism: period or not.

                            Donato

                            PS.. besides, this list is stagnant 90% of the time, whats wrong with having a little activity and discussing interesting off topic tangental matter? Its better than nothing. We have some of the most intelligent people I have ever encountered on this list, and I personally feel I have a lot to learn from all of you!
                          • Chris Carpenter
                            So much has been said, and although some may seem contradictory, its all very much interconeceted with lack of understanding being the weak point. I am going
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 9, 2009
                              So much has been said, and although some may seem contradictory, its all very much interconeceted with lack of understanding being the weak point. I am going to start with very non period matter first, but it does all lead back to health problems that have always existed to one level or another.

                              To start with, much of what I have brought up IS all about hydrogenated fats; not level of saturation or animal fat vs vegetable fat. To make any fat more "Storable", and transportable, humans figured out if they add a molecule of water to the fat lipid chain, it would congeal. They could also make it a lot cheaper if they dumped water in it. This is NOT part of the human diet and is very new, we are not able to easily digest this, but what does happen is.. let me approach this a little differently.

                              Insulin is a hormone that acts exactly like a "Lock and Key" to the cells. It unlocks the cell and allows it to convert carbohydrate into energy. Hydrogenated fats floating in your system plug up the key holes and makes it so the insulin no longer works. The key no longer fits and the carbohydrates build up, and so does the insulin. This is called insulin resistance and insulin resistant hypoinsulinemea.

                              When you become Insulin Resistant, instead of having easy energy reserves produced by the carbohydrates processed with the insulin through your cells, you instead convert the carbohydrates into fat; which is another process done with the insulin. I will repeat, insulin is building up to high levels in your system and converting carbohydrates (blood glucose) into fat. This fat is deposited around the body organs, someone mentioned "PotBelly syndrome" This is the way you can tell you are IR. AFTER yoru blood glucose is turned into fat, you convert it back into energy with the glycogen in your liver. There isn't much energy produced in this 3 step process and causes people to become overweight and sedentary. Insulin resistance and too many carbohydrates cause people to become obese... not too much fat.

                              When you become insulin resistant, your carbohydrates build up in your bloodstream to high levels, and your body goes... LOTS OF BLOOD SUGAR I must get rid of it!!! Your pancreas, the organ that produces the insulin goes into full production mode to create the insulin needed to process that blood glucose that won't go away. Eventually the pancreas burns out. By definition, Diabetes = your pancreas has burned out. Type II is still producing small amounts of insulin, Type I is totally burned out. Notice how obesity is not in this equation, thats an old wives tale and very slim people can get Type II diabetes too.

                              When your body is building up all this insulin, it makes the blood vessels brittle. I know this seems too simple, but its directly too much insulin in your system that causes aneurisms and pulmonary weakness.. yes. Heart disease.

                              Lets go in a different direction which will connect back; cholesterol. The dietary cholesterol you eat doesn't digest very well and most of it actually flushes through your system never leaving your intestines. When you have carbohydrates being converted to fats, the byproduct of this are triglycerides and yes, Cholesterol. Not properly processing your carbohydrates is what deposits the cholesterol in your system and causes Heart disease. The one thing they found out about the Aitkins diet (I am not endorsing it, just stating facts) is that people who cut WAY back on their carbohydrates had all their triglycerides and lipids levels balance out to VERY healthy levels.. even if they ate nothing but bacon and cheese.

                              I know this all is complicated, but it ties much together. There was mention that its carbohydrates that are the problem with diabetics; which is true, but what initially causes diabetes is caused by eating the wrong kinds of fats, hydrogenated. This causes, Insulin Resistance, also causes obesity and myriad cardio vascular problems.

                              Until we understand this, we cannot apply herbal solutions to the problem.

                              The basic solution though, and you have to start this with your child from birth, is no french fries, margerine or any other oils that have been converted into a solid fat by humans. It builds up and cannot be fixed once its done. Other than pancreatic stimulators and liver inhibitors what research is revealing to help IR are medications that are based upon...........

                              CHROMIUM! (hear that... thats where you will discover herbal solutions to IR)

                              The period herbal solutions to diabetes (I am diabetic, so I researched this), will seem DUH, and you can tell was applied in period intuitively.

                              Cassia Cinnimon, which is commonly applied to almost everything with sugar in it. Its also commonly added to rice, which is the WORST carbohydrate for a diabetic.

                              Green Tea, as I am sure I don't need to tell you, was commonly consumed with carbohydrates, be they with chineese food, or scones and crumpets in england. This too was a primary diabetic solution.

                              These 2 remedies may not have been directly applied for what was called "Sweet Urine", but entire societies used them as dietary staples intuitively combining them with those foods insulin resistant people should avoid the most.

                              See, I told you I would bring you back to topic....;O)
                            • Rosie
                              ... I guess not :) Nawojka
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 10, 2009
                                > I believe the original question was about recipes using ghee for ointments, not food.  So far no one has addressed that particular question, and I know I for one am interested in the response.  I have seen modern Ayuverdic manuals calling for the use of ghee mixed with sesame oil as a daily moisturizer/tonic.  The manuals specifically call for the concoction to be used on the soles of the feet every night before bed, in theory to help draw out the toxins in the body and help restore a sense of equilibrium.  Has anyone seen any period recipes in Arabic or Hindu texts calling for the use of ghee in such a fashion?
                                >
                                > Aldyth the Gentle

                                I guess not :)

                                Nawojka
                              • jack hollandbeck
                                Howdy all. I have to put my 1.73 cents (devalued) in. This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. The Tarim mummies were not Celts . They may have gotten that stigma
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 12, 2009

                                  Howdy all. I have to put my 1.73 cents (devalued) in. This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. The Tarim mummies were not Celts . They may have gotten that stigma from their reddish hair, and some of their textiles were herringbone weave or with plaid patterns. These are simply early textiles. As for their height, that could be due to diet. Europeans tended to be bigger the farther north they lived and that is assumed to be from the higher percentage of meat in their diets, much as the Japanese began to get taller after WWII, and their adoption of a more meaty American diet. On the whole, the ancients were shorter than the average European of today. The Roman male averaged 5'5''-5'7", the British male a bit less, Gallic males were up to 5'10" and Germans around 6'0". However the Mediterranean males were shorter. The Greeks averaged around 5'3" (the dreaded Spartans were peewees) and Palestinians around 5'0". Compare this with the 5'3"-5'6" Neandertal males. On the whole, they were shorter and slighter. People of the Mediterranean Basin ate more veggies and seafood because it was easier to garden there than farther north. Now to period, go check out the armor collections for the middle ages and Renaissance. The knightly class (aristocracy) had the best diets available in their times. However the armor on display are not for big, modern professional atheletes. Those men were still almost average in height compared to today, and much slighter. They also had chicken legs. I don't know how they could walk without calves. Anyway, there are always exceptions such as Charlemagne and Henry VIII. As for the Tarim mummies being Celts, I don't think so. (proper Celtic studies only began after WWII) They were broadly simultaneous to the Halstatt Culture, or the first true Celtic peoples. Even in this celtic is a linguistic group with shared art and technology, which was also shared by non-celtic groups (such as some of the plastic plants and animals used in decoration, and much of the plant imagery was from the Greeks.  The Tarim mummy people probably spoke and Indo-Iranian rather than Indo-European language.To speak of a Celtic Culture is inappropriate but oh so popular. Celtic culture is very modern phenomenon, and I suspect has some linkages back to the 18th-19th centuries notion of the noble savage. The first of this phenomenon may have been the Scottish plaid craze that took hold in Victorian England. Remember the clearances following the 1740 revolt of Bonnie Prince Charlie, and all the English aristocrats went north to take over the lands, ejecting the Scots and their cattle for sheep. It was also Victorian England which glorified the Highland regiments and their kilts. Tartans were invented, as well as regularizing clans. There were no clan tartans before Victoria. Nowadays, Celtic culture has spread from reference to the Irish out to the Scots (I am Clan Henderson). Today the last of these linguistically Celtic European peoples are the Irish, Scots, Welsh, Manx, Cornish and Bretons. There are other groups in Eastern Europe and the Middle East (Galatians in Turkey come to mind). No one used the term Celt as official until very recently. Up until very recently these groups were referred to by tribe (ancient) or region (medieval and Renaissance). Sorry for the essay, but I have made some study of this issue. The issue is not helped by all the Renaissance festivals which really muddy up the Celts. I love the fairs, but they are not history. The participants my be historically accurate, but the venue is not. I am sure there is a similar contradiction with the Robin Hood festivals in England. Unfortunately, the word "Celtic" has a popular meaning, as in Celtic Culture, but that is artificial and inaccurate. The Tarim were not Celts. They just had red hair, long legs, wore plaid sometimes and spoke an Iranian dialect. For the medieval and Renaissance periods just call them Irish, Scots, Manx, Welsh, Cornish and Bretons. That would be historically accurate.
                                  Jack
                                  ps There is archaeological evidence that the Tarim mummy people (long head European types) interacted peacefully and intermarried with round headed Asian types. This does not necessarily debunk the violence of the ancestors. It does set a nice precedent.



                                  On the medieval side: The Tarim mummies, for those who aren't familiar
                                  with them, are a group of natural mummies found in the Tarim basin of
                                  China. Despite being Bronze age and being buried long before anyone
                                  from the west was supposed to (by our knowledge) traveling that far
                                  eastward, they appear to be of Celtic origin and the adults were over 6
                                  ft. tall. There is evidence that they actually introduced writing and
                                  chariots to China. So the myth that our medieval ancestors were shorter
                                  than us is once again debunked. The myth that our medieval ancestors
                                  lived shorter lifespans is also debunked by these and other finds. The
                                  question is do you think it was diet?
                                  Avacyn







                                  Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
                                • jack hollandbeck
                                  mom just used it for cooking. I did use to get warm olive oil in my ears for an ear ache, though. Jack To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com From:
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 13, 2009
                                    mom just used it for cooking. I did use to get warm olive oil in my ears for an ear ache, though.
                                    Jack


                                    To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: a1979carr@...
                                    Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 18:30:25 -0800
                                    Subject: [SCA-Herbalist] Re: Ghee




                                    I believe the original question was about recipes using ghee for ointments, not food.  So far no one has addressed that particular question, and I know I for one am interested in the response.  I have seen modern Ayuverdic manuals calling for the use of ghee mixed with sesame oil as a daily moisturizer/tonic.  The manuals specifically call for the concoction to be used on the soles of the feet every night before bed, in theory to help draw out the toxins in the body and help restore a sense of equilibrium.  Has anyone seen any period recipes in Arabic or Hindu texts calling for the use of ghee in such a fashion?

                                    Aldyth the Gentle





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                                  • Amanda
                                    I have come across web pages that use ghee in ointments. http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/agnihotra/preparation.htm is one I came across just type ghee
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 14, 2009
                                      I have come across web pages that use ghee in ointments.
                                      http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/agnihotra/preparation.htm
                                      is one I came across just type "ghee ointment" on yahoo. I've never personally tried it.

                                      Delara al-Badawiyya

                                      --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie" <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Has anyone ever tried making ointments using ghee as the fat?
                                      >
                                      > Nawojka
                                      >
                                    • gianottadallafiora
                                      FYI; just saw a program about the Tarim mummies, in which genetic testing was done. The results were extremely interesting. Turns out the Tarim were more
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 23, 2009
                                        FYI; just saw a program about the Tarim mummies, in which genetic testing was done.

                                        The results were extremely interesting. Turns out the Tarim were more analagous to today's modern American culture; genetically, they were a melting pot of Asian, Eurasian, and European stock. They were trading and intermarrying with all the cultures that they encountered/passed through/etc., it seems.

                                        YIS,
                                        Adelisa di Salerno

                                        --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, jack hollandbeck <original_xman@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Howdy all. I have to put my 1.73 cents (devalued) in. This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. The Tarim mummies were not Celts . They may have gotten that stigma from their reddish hair, and some of their textiles were herringbone weave or with plaid patterns. These are simply early textiles. As for their height, that could be due to diet. Europeans tended to be bigger the farther north they lived and that is assumed to be from the higher percentage of meat in their diets, much as the Japanese began to get taller after WWII, and their adoption of a more meaty American diet. On the whole, the ancients were shorter than the average European of today. The Roman male averaged 5'5''-5'7", the British male a bit less, Gallic males were up to 5'10" and Germans around 6'0". However the Mediterranean males were shorter. The Greeks averaged around 5'3" (the dreaded Spartans were peewees) and Palestinians around 5'0". Compare this with the 5'3"-5'6" Neandertal males. On the whole, they were shorter and slighter. People of the Mediterranean Basin ate more veggies and seafood because it was easier to garden there than farther north. Now to period, go check out the armor collections for the middle ages and Renaissance. The knightly class (aristocracy) had the best diets available in their times. However the armor on display are not for big, modern professional atheletes. Those men were still almost average in height compared to today, and much slighter. They also had chicken legs. I don't know how they could walk without calves. Anyway, there are always exceptions such as Charlemagne and Henry VIII. As for the Tarim mummies being Celts, I don't think so. (proper Celtic studies only began after WWII) They were broadly simultaneous to the Halstatt Culture, or the first true Celtic peoples. Even in this celtic is a linguistic group with shared art and technology, which was also shared by non-celtic groups (such as some of the plastic plants and animals used in decoration, and much of the plant imagery was from the Greeks. The Tarim mummy people probably spoke and Indo-Iranian rather than Indo-European language.To speak of a Celtic Culture is inappropriate but oh so popular. Celtic culture is very modern phenomenon, and I suspect has some linkages back to the 18th-19th centuries notion of the noble savage. The first of this phenomenon may have been the Scottish plaid craze that took hold in Victorian England. Remember the clearances following the 1740 revolt of Bonnie Prince Charlie, and all the English aristocrats went north to take over the lands, ejecting the Scots and their cattle for sheep. It was also Victorian England which glorified the Highland regiments and their kilts. Tartans were invented, as well as regularizing clans. There were no clan tartans before Victoria. Nowadays, Celtic culture has spread from reference to the Irish out to the Scots (I am Clan Henderson). Today the last of these linguistically Celtic European peoples are the Irish, Scots, Welsh, Manx, Cornish and Bretons. There are other groups in Eastern Europe and the Middle East (Galatians in Turkey come to mind). No one used the term Celt as official until very recently. Up until very recently these groups were referred to by tribe (ancient) or region (medieval and Renaissance). Sorry for the essay, but I have made some study of this issue. The issue is not helped by all the Renaissance festivals which really muddy up the Celts. I love the fairs, but they are not history. The participants my be historically accurate, but the venue is not. I am sure there is a similar contradiction with the Robin Hood festivals in England. Unfortunately, the word "Celtic" has a popular meaning, as in Celtic Culture, but that is artificial and inaccurate. The Tarim were not Celts. They just had red hair, long legs, wore plaid sometimes and spoke an Iranian dialect. For the medieval and Renaissance periods just call them Irish, Scots, Manx, Welsh, Cornish and Bretons. That would be historically accurate.
                                        > Jack
                                        > ps There is archaeological evidence that the Tarim mummy people (long head European types) interacted peacefully and intermarried with round headed Asian types. This does not necessarily debunk the violence of the ancestors. It does set a nice precedent.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On the medieval side: The Tarim mummies, for those who aren't familiar
                                        >
                                        > with them, are a group of natural mummies found in the Tarim basin of
                                        >
                                        > China. Despite being Bronze age and being buried long before anyone
                                        >
                                        > from the west was supposed to (by our knowledge) traveling that far
                                        >
                                        > eastward, they appear to be of Celtic origin and the adults were over 6
                                        >
                                        > ft. tall. There is evidence that they actually introduced writing and
                                        >
                                        > chariots to China. So the myth that our medieval ancestors were shorter
                                        >
                                        > than us is once again debunked. The myth that our medieval ancestors
                                        >
                                        > lived shorter lifespans is also debunked by these and other finds. The
                                        >
                                        > question is do you think it was diet?
                                        >
                                        > Avacyn
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _________________________________________________________________
                                        > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
                                        > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
                                        >
                                      • jack hollandbeck
                                        yup, and if I recall don t seem to have a big war culture yet. They did have a woman shaman, though. Jack ...
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 23, 2009
                                          yup, and if I recall don't seem to have a big war culture yet. They did have a woman shaman, though.
                                          Jack

                                          > To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                                          > From: christianetrue@...
                                          > Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:34:27 +0000
                                          > Subject: [SCA-Herbalist] The Tarim (was Re: Ghee)
                                          >
                                          > FYI; just saw a program about the Tarim mummies, in which genetic testing was done.
                                          >
                                          > The results were extremely interesting. Turns out the Tarim were more analagous to today's modern American culture; genetically, they were a melting pot of Asian, Eurasian, and European stock. They were trading and intermarrying with all the cultures that they encountered/passed through/etc., it seems.
                                          >
                                          > YIS,
                                          > Adelisa di Salerno
                                          >
                                          > --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, jack hollandbeck <original_xman@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Howdy all. I have to put my 1.73 cents (devalued) in. This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. The Tarim mummies were not Celts . They may have gotten that stigma from their reddish hair, and some of their textiles were herringbone weave or with plaid patterns. These are simply early textiles. As for their height, that could be due to diet. Europeans tended to be bigger the farther north they lived and that is assumed to be from the higher percentage of meat in their diets, much as the Japanese began to get taller after WWII, and their adoption of a more meaty American diet. On the whole, the ancients were shorter than the average European of today. The Roman male averaged 5'5''-5'7", the British male a bit less, Gallic males were up to 5'10" and Germans around 6'0". However the Mediterranean males were shorter. The Greeks averaged around 5'3" (the dreaded Spartans were peewees) and Palestinians around 5'0". Compare this with the 5'3"-5'6" Neandertal males. On the whole, they were shorter and slighter. People of the Mediterranean Basin ate more veggies and seafood because it was easier to garden there than farther north. Now to period, go check out the armor collections for the middle ages and Renaissance. The knightly class (aristocracy) had the best diets available in their times. However the armor on display are not for big, modern professional atheletes. Those men were still almost average in height compared to today, and much slighter. They also had chicken legs. I don't know how they could walk without calves. Anyway, there are always exceptions such as Charlemagne and Henry VIII. As for the Tarim mummies being Celts, I don't think so. (proper Celtic studies only began after WWII) They were broadly simultaneous to the Halstatt Culture, or the first true Celtic peoples. Even in this celtic is a linguistic group with shared art and technology, which was also shared by non-celtic groups (such as some of the plastic plants and animals used in decoration, and much of the plant imagery was from the Greeks. The Tarim mummy people probably spoke and Indo-Iranian rather than Indo-European language.To speak of a Celtic Culture is inappropriate but oh so popular. Celtic culture is very modern phenomenon, and I suspect has some linkages back to the 18th-19th centuries notion of the noble savage. The first of this phenomenon may have been the Scottish plaid craze that took hold in Victorian England. Remember the clearances following the 1740 revolt of Bonnie Prince Charlie, and all the English aristocrats went north to take over the lands, ejecting the Scots and their cattle for sheep. It was also Victorian England which glorified the Highland regiments and their kilts. Tartans were invented, as well as regularizing clans. There were no clan tartans before Victoria. Nowadays, Celtic culture has spread from reference to the Irish out to the Scots (I am Clan Henderson). Today the last of these linguistically Celtic European peoples are the Irish, Scots, Welsh, Manx, Cornish and Bretons. There are other groups in Eastern Europe and the Middle East (Galatians in Turkey come to mind). No one used the term Celt as official until very recently. Up until very recently these groups were referred to by tribe (ancient) or region (medieval and Renaissance). Sorry for the essay, but I have made some study of this issue. The issue is not helped by all the Renaissance festivals which really muddy up the Celts. I love the fairs, but they are not history. The participants my be historically accurate, but the venue is not. I am sure there is a similar contradiction with the Robin Hood festivals in England. Unfortunately, the word "Celtic" has a popular meaning, as in Celtic Culture, but that is artificial and inaccurate. The Tarim were not Celts. They just had red hair, long legs, wore plaid sometimes and spoke an Iranian dialect. For the medieval and Renaissance periods just call them Irish, Scots, Manx, Welsh, Cornish and Bretons. That would be historically accurate.
                                          > > Jack
                                          > > ps There is archaeological evidence that the Tarim mummy people (long head European types) interacted peacefully and intermarried with round headed Asian types. This does not necessarily debunk the violence of the ancestors. It does set a nice precedent.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > On the medieval side: The Tarim mummies, for those who aren't familiar
                                          > >
                                          > > with them, are a group of natural mummies found in the Tarim basin of
                                          > >
                                          > > China. Despite being Bronze age and being buried long before anyone
                                          > >
                                          > > from the west was supposed to (by our knowledge) traveling that far
                                          > >
                                          > > eastward, they appear to be of Celtic origin and the adults were over 6
                                          > >
                                          > > ft. tall. There is evidence that they actually introduced writing and
                                          > >
                                          > > chariots to China. So the myth that our medieval ancestors were shorter
                                          > >
                                          > > than us is once again debunked. The myth that our medieval ancestors
                                          > >
                                          > > lived shorter lifespans is also debunked by these and other finds. The
                                          > >
                                          > > question is do you think it was diet?
                                          > >
                                          > > Avacyn
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                                          > > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
                                          > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                          > SCA-Herbalist disclaimer: This list is primarily for discussion of medieval
                                          > and renaissance herbalism and herbalism in the SCA. Please verify any health
                                          > information in other sources and/or with a qualified health professional.
                                          >
                                          > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.MedievalMart.com/
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                                        • gianottadallafiora
                                          And bringing it back to the herbal topic, another shaman who was found with marijuana! Also a hat decorated with cowrie shells from the Indian ocean. Drop this
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 25, 2009
                                            And bringing it back to the herbal topic, another shaman who was found with marijuana!

                                            Also a hat decorated with cowrie shells from the Indian ocean. Drop this tribal-hippie dude into a cafe on Valencia Street in the Mission in San Francisco, and no one would probably give him a second glance. <grin>

                                            Here's an article I found that talks about him and his "stash":

                                            http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Researchers_find_oldest-ever_stash_of_marijuana.html

                                            Adelisa

                                            --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, jack hollandbeck <original_xman@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > yup, and if I recall don't seem to have a big war culture yet. They did have a woman shaman, though.
                                            > Jack
                                          • perriscott
                                            Nothing Period per se, but as an arm-chair mythologist (ie. Comparative Religion studies), with a bent towards herbalism, I seem to recall that this
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 26, 2009
                                              Nothing "Period" per se, but as an 'arm-chair' mythologist (ie. Comparative Religion studies), with a bent towards herbalism, I seem to recall that this concoction (or something similar) was used by Tibetan monks to anoint the ground as a blessing for the souls of those that might be crushed under foot by accident (insects/worms), or just as a blessing to honor the earth.

                                              The exact reference escapes me at the moment--90% of my [text] books and belongings are in storage at the moment after my Big Move (now sleeping in a friends spare bedroom). Will try to locate it if anyone is interested.

                                              Trying to stay marginally on topic,
                                              Elspeth



                                              --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie" <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > I believe the original question was about recipes using ghee for ointments, not food.  So far no one has addressed that particular question, and I know I for one am interested in the response.  I have seen modern Ayuverdic manuals calling for the use of ghee mixed with sesame oil as a daily moisturizer/tonic.  The manuals specifically call for the concoction to be used on the soles of the feet every night before bed, in theory to help draw out the toxins in the body and help restore a sense of equilibrium.  Has anyone seen any period recipes in Arabic or Hindu texts calling for the use of ghee in such a fashion?
                                              > >
                                              > > Aldyth the Gentle
                                              >
                                              > I guess not :)
                                              >
                                              > Nawojka
                                              >
                                            • jack hollandbeck
                                              Cool. Throwing a little grass on the sweat lodge fire would sure help with bilocation, a specialist trick of shamans. This also begs the question.......Since
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 26, 2009
                                                Cool. Throwing a little grass on the sweat lodge fire would sure help with bilocation, a specialist trick of shamans. This also begs the question.......Since the article did NOT mention any shamanic materials, was the cannabis used medicinally, and so part of a high status warrior's kit (archery equipment and harp were in the burial). There is a good chance that he was a paleo surfer dude who got stranded after the flood. lol
                                                Jack

                                                > To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                                                > From: christianetrue@...
                                                > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:59:35 +0000
                                                > Subject: [SCA-Herbalist] The Tarim (was Re: Ghee)
                                                >
                                                > And bringing it back to the herbal topic, another shaman who was found with marijuana!
                                                >
                                                > Also a hat decorated with cowrie shells from the Indian ocean. Drop this tribal-hippie dude into a cafe on Valencia Street in the Mission in San Francisco, and no one would probably give him a second glance. <grin>
                                                >
                                                > Here's an article I found that talks about him and his "stash":
                                                >
                                                > http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Researchers_find_oldest-ever_stash_of_marijuana.html
                                                >
                                                > Adelisa
                                                >
                                                > --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, jack hollandbeck <original_xman@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > yup, and if I recall don't seem to have a big war culture yet. They did have a woman shaman, though.
                                                > > Jack
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                                > SCA-Herbalist disclaimer: This list is primarily for discussion of medieval
                                                > and renaissance herbalism and herbalism in the SCA. Please verify any health
                                                > information in other sources and/or with a qualified health professional.
                                                >
                                                > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                                                > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                                                > [Email to SCA-Herbalist-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Herbalist/
                                                >
                                                > <*> Your email settings:
                                                > Individual Email | Traditional
                                                >
                                                > <*> To change settings online go to:
                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Herbalist/join
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                                              • jack hollandbeck
                                                Spirituality and religious practices associated with herbalism is not discussed often. I would be interested. Don t hurt yourself trying to get at your
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Nov 26, 2009
                                                  Spirituality and religious practices associated with herbalism is not discussed often. I would be interested. Don't hurt yourself trying to get at your library. Take care of business first, this can wait.
                                                  Jack

                                                  > To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > From: DamePosintella@...
                                                  > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:37:07 +0000
                                                  > Subject: [SCA-Herbalist] Re: Ghee
                                                  >
                                                  > Nothing "Period" per se, but as an 'arm-chair' mythologist (ie. Comparative Religion studies), with a bent towards herbalism, I seem to recall that this concoction (or something similar) was used by Tibetan monks to anoint the ground as a blessing for the souls of those that might be crushed under foot by accident (insects/worms), or just as a blessing to honor the earth.
                                                  >
                                                  > The exact reference escapes me at the moment--90% of my [text] books and belongings are in storage at the moment after my Big Move (now sleeping in a friends spare bedroom). Will try to locate it if anyone is interested.
                                                  >
                                                  > Trying to stay marginally on topic,
                                                  > Elspeth
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie" <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > I believe the original question was about recipes using ghee for ointments, not food.  So far no one has addressed that particular question, and I know I for one am interested in the response.  I have seen modern Ayuverdic manuals calling for the use of ghee mixed with sesame oil as a daily moisturizer/tonic.  The manuals specifically call for the concoction to be used on the soles of the feet every night before bed, in theory to help draw out the toxins in the body and help restore a sense of equilibrium.  Has anyone seen any period recipes in Arabic or Hindu texts calling for the use of ghee in such a fashion?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Aldyth the Gentle
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I guess not :)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Nawojka
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  > SCA-Herbalist disclaimer: This list is primarily for discussion of medieval
                                                  > and renaissance herbalism and herbalism in the SCA. Please verify any health
                                                  > information in other sources and/or with a qualified health professional.
                                                  >
                                                  > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.MedievalMart.com/
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                                                • jack hollandbeck
                                                  Spirituality and religious practices associated with herbalism is not discussed often. I would be interested. Don t hurt yourself trying to get at your
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Nov 26, 2009
                                                    Spirituality and religious practices associated with herbalism is not discussed often. I would be interested. Don't hurt yourself trying to get at your library. Take care of business first, this can wait.
                                                    Jack

                                                    > To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > From: DamePosintella@...
                                                    > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:37:07 +0000
                                                    > Subject: [SCA-Herbalist] Re: Ghee
                                                    >
                                                    > Nothing "Period" per se, but as an 'arm-chair' mythologist (ie. Comparative Religion studies), with a bent towards herbalism, I seem to recall that this concoction (or something similar) was used by Tibetan monks to anoint the ground as a blessing for the souls of those that might be crushed under foot by accident (insects/worms), or just as a blessing to honor the earth.
                                                    >
                                                    > The exact reference escapes me at the moment--90% of my [text] books and belongings are in storage at the moment after my Big Move (now sleeping in a friends spare bedroom). Will try to locate it if anyone is interested.
                                                    >
                                                    > Trying to stay marginally on topic,
                                                    > Elspeth
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie" <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > I believe the original question was about recipes using ghee for ointments, not food.  So far no one has addressed that particular question, and I know I for one am interested in the response.  I have seen modern Ayuverdic manuals calling for the use of ghee mixed with sesame oil as a daily moisturizer/tonic.  The manuals specifically call for the concoction to be used on the soles of the feet every night before bed, in theory to help draw out the toxins in the body and help restore a sense of equilibrium.  Has anyone seen any period recipes in Arabic or Hindu texts calling for the use of ghee in such a fashion?
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Aldyth the Gentle
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I guess not :)
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Nawojka
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                                    > SCA-Herbalist disclaimer: This list is primarily for discussion of medieval
                                                    > and renaissance herbalism and herbalism in the SCA. Please verify any health
                                                    > information in other sources and/or with a qualified health professional.
                                                    >
                                                    > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                                                    > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                                                    > [Email to SCA-Herbalist-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                    >
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                                                  • perriscott
                                                    I don t generally post religious type posts unless it is an anthropological quote -- too many toes get offended and it tends to get one booted from a List--
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Nov 27, 2009
                                                      I don't generally post "religious" type posts unless it is an "anthropological quote"-- too many toes get offended and it tends to get one booted from a List-- unless it is a List forum set up for such discussions.

                                                      Just an "interesting" and "this-reminds-me-of" kind of observation.
                                                      Ointments and such are pretty universal from 10,000BC to 2009AD and whether they were used for "shamanic" medicine or prescription acne meds is pretty much a matter of time and place context. Unfortunately, since _we_ didn't live back then, [almost] all of what-we-think-we-know is based on theoretical conjecture-- heck, we might even be dead on accurate, but without actual records, we will never know.

                                                      Health,
                                                      Elspeth McArran



                                                      --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, jack hollandbeck <original_xman@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Spirituality and religious practices associated with herbalism is not discussed often. I would be interested. Don't hurt yourself trying to get at your library. Take care of business first, this can wait.
                                                      > Jack
                                                      >
                                                      > > To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > From: DamePosintella@...
                                                      > > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:37:07 +0000
                                                      > > Subject: [SCA-Herbalist] Re: Ghee
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Nothing "Period" per se, but as an 'arm-chair' mythologist (ie. Comparative Religion studies), with a bent towards herbalism, I seem to recall that this concoction (or something similar) was used by Tibetan monks to anoint the ground as a blessing for the souls of those that might be crushed under foot by accident (insects/worms), or just as a blessing to honor the earth.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > The exact reference escapes me at the moment--90% of my [text] books and belongings are in storage at the moment after my Big Move (now sleeping in a friends spare bedroom). Will try to locate it if anyone is interested.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Trying to stay marginally on topic,
                                                      > > Elspeth
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie" <Rosie_0801@> wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > > I believe the original question was about recipes using ghee for ointments, not food. So far no one has addressed that particular question, and I know I for one am interested in the response. I have seen modern Ayuverdic manuals calling for the use of ghee mixed with sesame oil as a daily moisturizer/tonic. The manuals specifically call for the concoction to be used on the soles of the feet every night before bed, in theory to help draw out the toxins in the body and help restore a sense of equilibrium. Has anyone seen any period recipes in Arabic or Hindu texts calling for the use of ghee in such a fashion?
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > Aldyth the Gentle
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > I guess not :)
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Nawojka
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                                      > >
                                                      > > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                                      > > SCA-Herbalist disclaimer: This list is primarily for discussion of medieval
                                                      > > and renaissance herbalism and herbalism in the SCA. Please verify any health
                                                      > > information in other sources and/or with a qualified health professional.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                                                      > > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                                                      > > [Email to SCA-Herbalist-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
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