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Earliest German herbals?

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  • Raven Kaldera
    Dear folks, I have a question for the research-inclined. I m looking for the earliest possible surviving written herbals in Germany ... sort of the German
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 11, 2009
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      Dear folks,

      I have a question for the research-inclined. I'm looking for the
      earliest possible surviving written herbals in Germany ... sort of the
      German equivalent of the Anglo-Saxon herbals. Does anyone know what
      those would have been, and if it is possible to get translations of
      them? I fear that books on the subject would only be in German, but at
      worst such things are translatable.

      Thank you,

      -Raven K
    • Shield of Peace
      Good place to ask: http://www.deutsches-apotheken-museum.de/englisch/contact.php Aquilina
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 13, 2009
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      • Shield of Peace
        ... Also, poking around on their web page I found this: http://home.swipnet.se/PharmHist/Lankar/lankar_en.html Aquilina
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 13, 2009
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          2009/1/13 Shield of Peace <randgrithr@...>:
          > Good place to ask:
          >
          > http://www.deutsches-apotheken-museum.de/englisch/contact.php

          Also, poking around on their web page I found this:

          http://home.swipnet.se/PharmHist/Lankar/lankar_en.html

          Aquilina
        • carmenetta@Att.net
          Buch der Natur by Conrad von Megenberg from 1349 and 1351. Earliest manuscript unknown, a copy dated 1377 existed in 1861 1st edition; 1475 at Augsburg by
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 13, 2009
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            "Buch der Natur" by Conrad von Megenberg from 1349 and 1351. Earliest manuscript unknown, a copy dated 1377 existed in 1861
            1st edition; 1475 at Augsburg by Hans Bamler, this is the first illustrated edition
             
            "Herbarius Latinus" by Peter Schoeffer first printed at Mainz in 1484, an associate of Gutenberg. Copies were in german.
            "Der Gart der Gesundheit1485" is another of his publications
             
            "Das distilier buch" or "Das Buch zu Distillieren" by Hieronymus Brunschwig ?1519
             
            I hope this is helpful in your search.
            Condessa Carmenetta
             
             
             
             
            -------------- Original message from "Raven Kaldera" <cauldronfarm@...>: --------------

            Dear folks,

            I have a question for the research-inclined. I'm looking for the
            earliest possible surviving written herbals in Germany ... sort of the
            German equivalent of the Anglo-Saxon herbals. Does anyone know what
            those would have been, and if it is possible to get translations of
            them? I fear that books on the subject would only be in German, but at
            worst such things are translatable.

            Thank you,

            -Raven K

          • carmenetta@Att.net
            I just e-mailed you a reply....you may forward to the list as I forgot to include them in the reply Thanks Carmenetta ... Dear folks, I have a question for the
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 13, 2009
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              I just e-mailed you a reply....you may forward to the list as I forgot to include them in the reply
               
              Thanks
              Carmenetta
              -------------- Original message from "Raven Kaldera" <cauldronfarm@...>: --------------

              Dear folks,

              I have a question for the research-inclined. I'm looking for the
              earliest possible surviving written herbals in Germany ... sort of the
              German equivalent of the Anglo-Saxon herbals. Does anyone know what
              those would have been, and if it is possible to get translations of
              them? I fear that books on the subject would only be in German, but at
              worst such things are translatable.

              Thank you,

              -Raven K

            • Raven Kaldera
              ... Sigh. I emailed them and got back an email saying that they were too busy to help me. Ah well. Pity I can t fly to Germany. -Raven K
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 14, 2009
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                --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, Shield of Peace <randgrithr@...>
                wrote:
                > Good place to ask:
                > http://www.deutsches-apotheken-museum.de/englisch/contact.php

                Sigh. I emailed them and got back an email saying that they were too
                busy to help me. Ah well.

                Pity I can't fly to Germany.

                -Raven K
              • Jo Anne Fatherly
                I don t remember ever seeing a response to this. The only place I ve seen any amount of information was in Anna Pavord s book, The Naming of Names. The book
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 17 7:51 PM
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                  I don't remember ever seeing a response to this. The only place I've
                  seen any amount of information was in Anna Pavord's book, "The Naming
                  of Names." The book is about the history of plant nomenclature, and
                  more interesting than you might think. But she spends a fair amount
                  of time on the German publications.

                  Johanna
                  At 06:59 PM 1/11/2009, you wrote:
                  >Dear folks,
                  >
                  >I have a question for the research-inclined. I'm looking for the
                  >earliest possible surviving written herbals in Germany ... sort of the
                  >German equivalent of the Anglo-Saxon herbals. Does anyone know what
                  >those would have been, and if it is possible to get translations of
                  >them? I fear that books on the subject would only be in German, but at
                  >worst such things are translatable.
                  >
                  >Thank you,
                  >
                  >-Raven K
                  >
                  >
                  >------------------------------------
                  >
                  >-------------------------------------------------------------
                  >SCA-Herbalist disclaimer: This list is primarily for discussion of medieval
                  >and renaissance herbalism and herbalism in the SCA. Please verify any health
                  >information in other sources and/or with a qualified health professional.
                  >
                  >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                  >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                  >[Email to SCA-Herbalist-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this
                  >list]Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Foster, Laurie E. USNCIV NAVAIR 2185, ST
                  There s always Hildegard... Laurie Foster P-3C CNS/ATM Project Engineer _|_ --@-@-(_)-@-@-- ... From: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 18 4:39 AM
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                    There's always Hildegard...


                    Laurie Foster
                    P-3C CNS/ATM Project Engineer
                    _|_

                    --@-@-(_)-@-@--



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Jo Anne Fatherly
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 22:51
                    To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Herbalist] Earliest German herbals?

                    I don't remember ever seeing a response to this. The only place I've seen
                    any amount of information was in Anna Pavord's book, "The Naming of Names."
                    The book is about the history of plant nomenclature, and more interesting
                    than you might think. But she spends a fair amount of time on the German
                    publications.

                    Johanna
                    At 06:59 PM 1/11/2009, you wrote:
                    >Dear folks,
                    >
                    >I have a question for the research-inclined. I'm looking for the
                    >earliest possible surviving written herbals in Germany ... sort of the
                    >German equivalent of the Anglo-Saxon herbals. Does anyone know what
                    >those would have been, and if it is possible to get translations of
                    >them? I fear that books on the subject would only be in German, but at
                    >worst such things are translatable.
                    >
                    >Thank you,
                    >
                    >-Raven K
                    >
                    >
                    >------------------------------------
                    >
                    >----------------------------------------------------------
                    >SCA-Herbalist disclaimer: This list is primarily for discussion of
                    >medieval and renaissance herbalism and herbalism in the SCA. Please
                    >verify any health information in other sources and/or with a qualified
                    health professional.
                    >
                    >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                    ><http://www.MedievalMart.com/> Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM,
                    >East Kingdom, SCA [Email to SCA-Herbalist-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    ><mailto:SCA-Herbalist-unsubscribe%40egroups.com> to leave this
                    >list]Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • ERIC A WARD
                    Most of the herbals I ve seen are from the 16th century.  Leonhard Fuchs wrote one in Germany.  I ve been told it s in German, but the first thing I noticed
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 18 4:41 AM
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                      Most of the herbals I've seen are from the 16th century.  Leonhard Fuchs wrote one in Germany.  I've been told it's in German, but the first thing I noticed after my hubby bought me the two volume set (some of which is translated) is that it looked a little more like Latin to me.  Unfortunately, I haven't spent a lot of time reading it yet.
                       
                      However, when double checking the author's name, I found this:
                       
                       
                      Hope it helps!
                       
                      Oriel of Clan Dunncan

                      --- On Tue, 2/17/09, Jo Anne Fatherly <joanne@...> wrote:
                      From: Jo Anne Fatherly <joanne@...>
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Herbalist] Earliest German herbals?
                      To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 10:51 PM

                      I don't remember ever seeing a response to this. The only place I've
                      seen any amount of information was in Anna Pavord's book, "The Naming
                      of Names." The book is about the history of plant nomenclature, and
                      more interesting than you might think. But she spends a fair amount
                      of time on the German publications.

                      Johanna
                      At 06:59 PM 1/11/2009, you wrote:
                      >Dear folks,
                      >
                      >I have a question for the research-inclined. I'm looking for the
                      >earliest possible surviving written herbals in Germany ... sort of the
                      >German equivalent of the Anglo-Saxon herbals. Does anyone know what
                      >those would have been, and if it is possible to get translations of
                      >them? I fear that books on the subject would only be in German, but at
                      >worst such things are translatable.
                      >
                      >Thank you,
                      >
                      >-Raven K
                      >
                      >
                      >----------- --------- --------- -------
                      >
                      >----------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --
                      >SCA-Herbalist disclaimer: This list is primarily for discussion of medieval
                      >and renaissance herbalism and herbalism in the SCA. Please verify any health
                      >information in other sources and/or with a qualified health professional.
                      >
                      >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.Medieval Mart.com/
                      >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                      >[Email to SCA-Herbalist- unsubscribe@ egroups.com to leave this
                      >list]Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • donat0
                      I realize you are talking of German herbalists, but to omit Pliny the Elder and his Historia naturalis as an important reference would be a true negligence, I
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 18 7:44 AM
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                        I realize you are talking of German herbalists, but to omit Pliny the
                        Elder and his Historia naturalis as an important reference would be a
                        true negligence, I am sure this tome made it into the regions of Saxony
                        also as well as the rest of the world.

                        Donat0
                      • Alyson
                        Pliny did make it into the Saxon herbals and evidence of his work can be seen in Gerald s, Bald s, and Hildegard of Bingen and others. Also, his work is
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 18 7:54 AM
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                          Pliny did make it into the Saxon herbals and evidence of his work can be seen in Gerald's, Bald's, and Hildegard of Bingen and others. Also, his work is referenced in Chaucer's CTales and other medieval works. One basically has to work backwards from Culpepper and into the monastic realm to trace the history. Linda Voight has written a paper on the influence of physicians in Saxon herbals.
                          Kemper
                           
                          Life is meant to be an adventure; change is a gift that we have to learn to use aright. A Celtic curse is to be stuck in a field and unable to leave. To be stuck in one place forever.
                          To be unable to venture or change.
                          An open gate is the opposite of this. It is the invitation to venture, to grow, the call to be among the living vital elements of the world.
                          The open gate is the call to explore new areas of yourself
                          and the world around you
                          ~David Adam,The Open Gate~




                          From: donat0 <donat0@...>
                          To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:44:25 AM
                          Subject: [SCA-Herbalist] Re: Earliest German herbals?


                          I realize you are talking of German herbalists, but to omit Pliny the
                          Elder and his Historia naturalis as an important reference would be a
                          true negligence, I am sure this tome made it into the regions of Saxony
                          also as well as the rest of the world.

                          Donat0

                        • Robin Kennedy
                          Indeed, much of the common herbal knowledge, scholarly or otherwise, was based on Pliny, Diascorides, etc. If you can read old English, French, Latin and/or
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 19 8:26 AM
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                            Indeed, much of the "common" herbal knowledge, scholarly or otherwise,
                            was based on Pliny, Diascorides, etc. If you can read old English,
                            French, Latin and/or German, the following is a fantastic resource: http://www.botanicus.org/browse/titles

                            These are original publications that have been scanned and made
                            available for free. I've found works going back to the 1400's that I
                            can use. Just wish I could read French!

                            Maereta

                            On Feb 19, 2009, at 8:47 AM, SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                            > ________________________
                            > 1a. Re: Earliest German herbals?
                            > Posted by: "donat0" donat0@... donat0
                            > Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:44 am ((PST))
                            >
                            >
                            > I realize you are talking of German herbalists, but to omit Pliny the
                            > Elder and his Historia naturalis as an important reference would be a
                            > true negligence, I am sure this tome made it into the regions of
                            > Saxony
                            > also as well as the rest of the world.
                            >
                            > Donat0
                            >
                            >
                            > Messages in this topic (8)
                            > ________________________________________________________________________
                            > 1b. Re: Earliest German herbals?
                            > Posted by: "Alyson" tolkienscholar@... kemperoctavia
                            > Date: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:54 am ((PST))
                            >
                            > Pliny did make it into the Saxon herbals and evidence of his work
                            > can be seen in Gerald's, Bald's, and Hildegard of Bingen and others.
                            > Also, his work is referenced in Chaucer's CTales and other medieval
                            > works. One basically has to work backwards from Culpepper and into
                            > the monastic realm to trace the history. Linda Voight has written a
                            > paper on the influence of physicians in Saxon herbals.
                            > Kemper
                            >
                            >
                            > Life is meant to be an adventure; change is a gift that we have to
                            > learn to use aright. A Celtic curse is to be stuck in a field and
                            > unable to leave. To be stuck in one place forever.
                            > To be unable to venture or change.
                            > An open gate is the opposite of this. It is the invitation to
                            > venture, to grow, the call to be among the living vital elements of
                            > the world.
                            > The open gate is the call to explore new areas of yourself
                            > and the world around you
                            > ~David Adam,The Open Gate~
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: donat0 <donat0@...>
                            > To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:44:25 AM
                            > Subject: [SCA-Herbalist] Re: Earliest German herbals?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I realize you are talking of German herbalists, but to omit Pliny the
                            > Elder and his Historia naturalis as an important reference would be a
                            > true negligence, I am sure this tome made it into the regions of
                            > Saxony
                            > also as well as the rest of the world.
                            >
                            > Donat0
                          • donat0
                            I believe at times, in the SCA, people loose track of the context of information while searching for the minutae of period specific knowledge. They want to
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 19 9:22 AM
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                              I believe at times, in the SCA, people loose track of the context of
                              information while searching for the minutae of period specific
                              knowledge. They want to pinpoint documentation to rationalize their
                              personae having known the information while ignoring where it came
                              from.

                              What drove the Renaissance was the re-exploration of the classical
                              arts and sciences. DaVinci, Michelangelo... I could go on and on
                              with names.. all had extensive education derived from the foundations
                              the Greeks and Romans built 1200 years before. They took this
                              information, and either further discovered truths based upon this
                              expertise, or discredited the myths provided in the past to help
                              discover the truth. Pliny was a very important part of this along
                              with Aristotle, Aristophanes, Pythagoreas (goes on naming).... All
                              these people were studied to bring about the Renaissance.

                              I guess what I am saying, is if we really want to learn what the
                              educated people in period were thinking, where they were coming from,
                              we need to also learn what they learned too; not just show that they
                              said it. Its easy to say "(insert name) wrote this and I have
                              documentation to prove it" ... but to show you understand WHY that
                              person wrote it, and how they found that information in the first
                              place... this shows a true understanding of the subject.
                            • charmed3x3@yahoo.com
                              Huzzah to that Emeline Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: donat0 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:22:34 To:
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 19 9:51 AM
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                                Huzzah to that
                                Emeline

                                Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


                                From: "donat0"
                                Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:22:34 -0000
                                To: <SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: [SCA-Herbalist] Re: Earliest German herbals?

                                I believe at times, in the SCA, people loose track of the context of
                                information while searching for the minutae of period specific
                                knowledge. They want to pinpoint documentation to rationalize their
                                personae having known the information while ignoring where it came
                                from.

                                What drove the Renaissance was the re-exploration of the classical
                                arts and sciences. DaVinci, Michelangelo. .. I could go on and on
                                with names.. all had extensive education derived from the foundations
                                the Greeks and Romans built 1200 years before. They took this
                                information, and either further discovered truths based upon this
                                expertise, or discredited the myths provided in the past to help
                                discover the truth. Pliny was a very important part of this along
                                with Aristotle, Aristophanes, Pythagoreas (goes on naming).... All
                                these people were studied to bring about the Renaissance.

                                I guess what I am saying, is if we really want to learn what the
                                educated people in period were thinking, where they were coming from,
                                we need to also learn what they learned too; not just show that they
                                said it. Its easy to say "(insert name) wrote this and I have
                                documentation to prove it" ... but to show you understand WHY that
                                person wrote it, and how they found that information in the first
                                place... this shows a true understanding of the subject.

                              • carmenetta1585
                                I respond to this person off list and gave her a long list of period herbals in German and asked her to forward them to the list If I don t see her forward
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 19 12:23 PM
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                                  I respond to this person off list and gave her a long list of period
                                  herbals in German and asked her to forward them to the list
                                  If I don't see her forward I'll resend the information to the list for
                                  everyone.

                                  Condessa Carmenetta

                                  --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, "Raven Kaldera"
                                  <cauldronfarm@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear folks,
                                  >
                                  > I have a question for the research-inclined. I'm looking for the
                                  > earliest possible surviving written herbals in Germany ... sort of the
                                  > German equivalent of the Anglo-Saxon herbals. Does anyone know what
                                  > those would have been, and if it is possible to get translations of
                                  > them? I fear that books on the subject would only be in German, but at
                                  > worst such things are translatable.
                                  >
                                  > Thank you,
                                  >
                                  > -Raven K
                                  >
                                • Raven Kaldera
                                  ... My apologies for taking so long - I ve been away. Thank you to all who replied to this - I m looking into the resources, and oh I only wish that I could
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 28 2:05 PM
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                                    --- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, Jo Anne Fatherly <joanne@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I don't remember ever seeing a response to this. The only place I've
                                    > seen any amount of information was in Anna Pavord's book, "The Naming
                                    > of Names." The book is about the history of plant nomenclature, and
                                    > more interesting than you might think. But she spends a fair amount
                                    > of time on the German publications.

                                    My apologies for taking so long - I've been away.

                                    Thank you to all who replied to this - I'm looking into the resources,
                                    and oh I only wish that I could read foreign languages, sigh. I will
                                    check out the above book, and the listed website.

                                    (What book-translation of Hildegard of Bingen do folks suggest?)

                                    I suppose the base contextual question, underneath, is about timeline.
                                    Yes, you have all the Greek and Roman classical texts, and then the
                                    big gap of the early Dark Ages, and then ... are the Anglo-Saxon
                                    herbals really the next thing we have, chronologically, and the only
                                    thing in northern Europe until the early Renaissance? Is that why
                                    they're so special - they're all that there is out there for hundreds
                                    of years, both before and after?

                                    I realize that the classical herbals influenced the AS herbals to a
                                    good degree, but there do seem to be a great deal of "local" remedies,
                                    and it's those that I'm fascinated by. It would stand to reason that
                                    books printed geographically closer to Greece/Rome (Italy, perhaps
                                    France) would be more likely to be outright copies of classical texts
                                    ... so that's why I'm looking at Germany. Might they have something as
                                    old as the AS herbals? I have read Charlemagne's plant decrees, surely
                                    there might be something else from that era?

                                    (The very nice and articulate gentleman from the Norwegian based
                                    Museum of Pharmacology sent me a long and wonderful email explaining
                                    the history of herbals in Scandinavia, which apparently started with
                                    the printing press importation in the mid-1500s.)

                                    Forgive my ignorance, I am honestly trying to research this.

                                    -RK
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