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Simplicity 5294 - Italian Ren?

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  • aliceshockley
    I recently bought this pattern on sale for 99 cents! http://www.simplicity.com/s2b.htm I know it isn t period as is - still a pretty dress though. I was
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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      I recently bought this pattern on sale for 99 cents!

      http://www.simplicity.com/s2b.htm

      I know it isn't period as is - still a pretty dress though. I was
      thinking of making the black one, only with a solid skirt, rather
      than split. I do know that it needs to have the zip changed to
      lacing and the attached "fake undersleeves" and "underskirt" should
      be a separate underdress. I also know darts aren't period. Does
      anything else need to be changed? How about the neckline and waist?
      Does that appear right?

      I'd appreciate your thoughts.

      Lilion
    • Chiara
      You meant http://www.simplicity.com/navFrame.cfm?designId=8308&design=5294 right? Chiara
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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        You meant http://www.simplicity.com/navFrame.cfm?designId=8308&design=5294
        right?

        Chiara

        > I recently bought this pattern on sale for 99 cents!
        >
        > http://www.simplicity.com/s2b.htm
        >
        > I know it isn't period as is - still a pretty dress though. I was
        > thinking of making the black one, only with a solid skirt, rather than
        > split. I do know that it needs to have the zip changed to
        > lacing and the attached "fake undersleeves" and "underskirt" should be
        > a separate underdress. I also know darts aren't period. Does anything
        > else need to be changed? How about the neckline and waist? Does that
        > appear right?
        >
        > I'd appreciate your thoughts.
        >
        > Lilion
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Helpful email addresses:
        > Subscribe: SCA-Garb-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Unsubscribe: SCA-Garb-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Main group web page:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Garb
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • aliceshockley
        Yep, that s the one. Hopefully, this link works better. for some reason it s the one that shows over the
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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          Yep, that's the one. Hopefully, this link works better.

          <http://www.simplicity.com/design.cfm?designId=8308>

          for some reason it's the one that shows over the design when you
          click the link on the site you posted.

          Lilion

          --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Chiara" <chiara@i...> wrote:
          > You meant http://www.simplicity.com/navFrame.cfm?
          designId=8308&design=5294
          > right?
          >
          > Chiara
          >
          > > I recently bought this pattern on sale for 99 cents!
          > >
          > > http://www.simplicity.com/s2b.htm
          > >
          > > I know it isn't period as is - still a pretty dress though. I was
          > > thinking of making the black one, only with a solid skirt,
          rather than
          > > split. I do know that it needs to have the zip changed to
          > > lacing and the attached "fake undersleeves" and "underskirt"
          should be
          > > a separate underdress. I also know darts aren't period. Does
          anything
          > > else need to be changed? How about the neckline and waist?
          Does that
          > > appear right?
          > >
          > > I'd appreciate your thoughts.
          > >
          > > Lilion
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Helpful email addresses:
          > > Subscribe: SCA-Garb-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > Unsubscribe: SCA-Garb-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > Main group web page:
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Garb
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • aliceshockley
          Darn, one more time! http://www.simplicity.com/design.cfm?designId=8308 If this doesn t work I give up.
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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            Darn, one more time!

            http://www.simplicity.com/design.cfm?designId=8308

            If this doesn't work I give up.

            :-)
          • Franchesca Havas
            Here, this is the image url, just make sure you keep it all on one line :) http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5294/5294.jpg If you click the other there will be
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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              Here, this is the image url, just make sure you keep it all on one line :)

              http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5294/5294.jpg

              If you click the other there will be two links on the left, click on the
              one that is 5294.

              Chiara

              > You meant
              > http://www.simplicity.com/navFrame.cfm?designId=8308&design=5294 right?
              >
              > Chiara
              >
              >> I recently bought this pattern on sale for 99 cents!
              >>
              >> http://www.simplicity.com/s2b.htm
              >>
              >> I know it isn't period as is - still a pretty dress though. I was
              >> thinking of making the black one, only with a solid skirt, rather
              >> than split. I do know that it needs to have the zip changed to
              >> lacing and the attached "fake undersleeves" and "underskirt" should
              >> be a separate underdress. I also know darts aren't period. Does
              >> anything else need to be changed? How about the neckline and waist?
              >> Does that appear right?
              >>
              >> I'd appreciate your thoughts.
              >>
              >> Lilion
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Helpful email addresses:
              >> Subscribe: SCA-Garb-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >> Unsubscribe: SCA-Garb-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >>
              >> Main group web page:
              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Garb
              >>
              >>
              >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Helpful email addresses:
              > Subscribe: SCA-Garb-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Unsubscribe: SCA-Garb-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Main group web page:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Garb
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Susan Farmer
              ... the Simplicity site uses frames. You either need to provide the pattern number or right click in the pattern window and select Open in new window/tab
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                >
                > I recently bought this pattern on sale for 99 cents!
                >
                > http://www.simplicity.com/s2b.htm

                the Simplicity site uses frames. You either need to provide the
                pattern number or right click in the pattern window and select
                "Open in new window/tab" and then send *that* URL.

                Jerusha, the weeb geek
              • aliceshockley
                This one gets you there fine! http://www.simplicity.com/design.cfm?designId=8308 Now, any ideas for me folks? Like I said, I know about the darts, zipper and
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                  This one gets you there fine!

                  http://www.simplicity.com/design.cfm?designId=8308

                  Now, any ideas for me folks? Like I said, I know about the darts,
                  zipper and underdress. Having fixed those, is this at all period?
                  I'm talking mainly about view 2, the black one, with the skirt
                  closed, not open. My first concern is the way the bodice "dips up"
                  under the bust...Does that look right to anyone?

                  Lilion
                • Dianne & Greg Stucki
                  ... From: aliceshockley To: Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 3:59 PM Subject: [SCA-Garb] Re: Simplicity
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "aliceshockley" <aliceshockley@...>
                    To: <SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 3:59 PM
                    Subject: [SCA-Garb] Re: Simplicity 5294 - Italian Ren?


                    > This one gets you there fine!
                    >
                    > http://www.simplicity.com/design.cfm?designId=8308
                    >
                    > Now, any ideas for me folks? Like I said, I know about the darts,
                    > zipper and underdress. Having fixed those, is this at all period?
                    > I'm talking mainly about view 2, the black one, with the skirt
                    > closed, not open. My first concern is the way the bodice "dips up"
                    > under the bust...Does that look right to anyone?

                    Nope, you need to straighten that out. Very easy change to make, though.

                    Laurensa
                    >
                    > Lilion
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Helpful email addresses:
                    > Subscribe: SCA-Garb-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > Unsubscribe: SCA-Garb-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Main group web page:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Garb
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • IceGirlNIN@aol.com
                    In a message dated 10/2/2003 4:12:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, dakea@kc.rr.com writes: My first concern is the way the bodice dips up under the bust...Does
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                      In a message dated 10/2/2003 4:12:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      dakea@... writes:
                      My first concern is the way the bodice "dips up"
                      under the bust...Does that look right to anyone?
                      I know very little about Italian Ren dress. However. If the costumes
                      constructed for those photos were done with very little inner support (I'll save the
                      Italian-corset debate for later), part of the "dip" might be caused by the
                      weight of the breasts of the models, perhaps? That's the large version of the
                      pattern. While I'm not a large woman, I know from my mother and my aunt that
                      things need to be held in pretty well to avoid a dip.
                      Reading other posts, you probably need to fix it anyway. But it could
                      partially be caused by not enough support.

                      Christine


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Amanda
                      My first concern is the way the bodice dips up under the bust...Does that look right to anyone? Lilion Not to me... the bodice in the Italian Dress of that
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                        My first concern is the way the bodice "dips up"
                        under the bust...Does that look right to anyone?

                        Lilion


                        Not to me... the bodice in the Italian Dress of that period goes across on a straight line.
                        What they have done in that one picture is mocked up the gonna and the cotta together so the cotta front opening shows what should be a gonna underneath.
                        If you close the front you will be making a Gonna, which in some regions is called a Gamurra. If you want you can make another dress to go on top of the Gonna, open in the front and hooked in the front too... that would be your cotta.
                        and if you want you can make an Italian overcoat, or a Giornea to go on top of that.

                        Amanda.
                        filia Luci


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • dlminyar
                        ... Yes and no It should end up looking straight across. However if I follow a friends directions for the fitting and make the bodice supportive I end up with
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                          --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" <dakea@k...> wrote:
                          > My first concern is the way the bodice "dips up"
                          > under the bust...Does that look right to anyone?
                          >
                          > Lilion
                          >
                          Yes and no It should end up looking straight across. However if I
                          follow a friends directions for the fitting and make the bodice
                          supportive I end up with a slight dip in the bottom when it's not
                          being worn this straightens out when worn. It is a slight dip maybe
                          a 1/2 inch in the middle. Watch the neckline and make sure it fits
                          you. If your bust isn't quite where it's assumed to be the neckline
                          can be a bit low. If you want me to post the fitting instructions I
                          can. Also I suggest pleating the skirt. There are several sleeve
                          options check out a few before you decide. My favorite chemise for
                          under thi is the one on the reconstructinghistory site.
                          Maddalena
                        • unclrashid
                          ... darts, ... period? ... up ... though. ... Definitely sraighten out the waist seam. Should also be higher waisted with bustline hoisted quite high. Here
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "aliceshockley" <aliceshockley@y...>
                            > To: <SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 3:59 PM
                            > Subject: [SCA-Garb] Re: Simplicity 5294 - Italian Ren?
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > http://www.simplicity.com/design.cfm?designId=8308
                            > >
                            > > Now, any ideas for me folks? Like I said, I know about the
                            darts,
                            > > zipper and underdress. Having fixed those, is this at all
                            period?
                            > > I'm talking mainly about view 2, the black one, with the skirt
                            > > closed, not open. My first concern is the way the bodice "dips
                            up"
                            > > under the bust...Does that look right to anyone?
                            >
                            > Nope, you need to straighten that out. Very easy change to make,
                            though.
                            >


                            Definitely sraighten out the waist seam. Should also be higher
                            waisted with bustline hoisted quite high.

                            Here is a link to a period pic by Durer that is what they seem to be
                            copying:

                            http://www.gallery.euroweb.hu/html/d/durer/2/11/1/index.html

                            scroll down and click on the pic of "Nuremberg and Venetian Women"
                            1496-97

                            Rashid
                          • aliceshockley
                            Thanks, I d very much like the instructions. I love Italian, but have never tried making one yet. I find it easier to work from a pattern, so jumped on this
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                              Thanks, I'd very much like the instructions. I love Italian, but
                              have never tried making one yet. I find it easier to work from a
                              pattern, so jumped on this one. May still try working without though.

                              Lilion

                              --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "dlminyar" <dminmin@h...> wrote:
                              > --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" <dakea@k...> wrote:
                              > > My first concern is the way the bodice "dips up"
                              > > under the bust...Does that look right to anyone?
                              > >
                              > > Lilion
                              > >
                              > Yes and no It should end up looking straight across. However if I
                              > follow a friends directions for the fitting and make the bodice
                              > supportive I end up with a slight dip in the bottom when it's not
                              > being worn this straightens out when worn. It is a slight dip
                              maybe
                              > a 1/2 inch in the middle. Watch the neckline and make sure it fits
                              > you. If your bust isn't quite where it's assumed to be the
                              neckline
                              > can be a bit low. If you want me to post the fitting instructions
                              I
                              > can. Also I suggest pleating the skirt. There are several sleeve
                              > options check out a few before you decide. My favorite chemise for
                              > under thi is the one on the reconstructinghistory site.
                              > Maddalena
                            • dlminyar
                              ... though. ... Here s what I have. It s specifically for fuller figures bur the basic theory works for all. As for larger figures, high Italian Renn (or its
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                                --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "aliceshockley"
                                <aliceshockley@y...> wrote:
                                > Thanks, I'd very much like the instructions. I love Italian, but
                                > have never tried making one yet. I find it easier to work from a
                                > pattern, so jumped on this one. May still try working without
                                though.
                                >
                                > Lilion
                                Here's what I have. It's specifically for fuller figures bur the
                                basic theory works for all.

                                As for larger figures, high Italian Renn (or its Spanish
                                counterpart!) looks
                                good on any figure, provided that you follow a few rules:

                                1. The bodice must SUPPORT the bust. It must be tight and hold you
                                up! If
                                you jump up and down and don't move just a whole lot, you've got it
                                right.
                                Look at http://sca-garb.freeservers.com (SCA-Costume) and there is
                                an
                                article by Mistress Corisander about cotehardies that gives the
                                basics...just shorten the bodice... In a nutshell: when you cut the
                                muslin, instead of cutting the neckline in a u-shape, take the tops
                                of the
                                "U" and stretch them out to the side for the shoulders. LAY DOWN
                                and pin
                                the sides (don't fight gravity) and then pull the shoulders up until
                                you
                                pull the breasts up and in a much as you can. (There will be a gap
                                in the
                                fabric between the breasts, so just take this in.) This also keeps
                                these
                                pieces from falling off your shoulders.

                                2. Don't skimp on the skirt! All of those nice pleats/gathers, and
                                the
                                WEIGHT of the fabric, (you might even want to line it, or add drapery
                                weights on the hem) pull the fabric over a prominent stomach
                                beautifully.
                                Amazing, but it works.
                                Maddalena
                              • Bella
                                ... Rashid is absolutely correct on this one. The simplicity pattern is a copy of a very late 15thC/early16thC style, seen on the lady by Durer. Forgetting the
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                                  --- unclrashid <unclrashid@...> wrote:

                                  > Definitely sraighten out the waist seam. Should also be higher
                                  > waisted with bustline hoisted quite high.
                                  >
                                  > Here is a link to a period pic by Durer that is what they seem to be
                                  > copying:
                                  >
                                  > http://www.gallery.euroweb.hu/html/d/durer/2/11/1/index.html
                                  >
                                  > scroll down and click on the pic of "Nuremberg and Venetian Women"
                                  > 1496-97


                                  Rashid is absolutely correct on this one. The simplicity pattern is a copy of a very late
                                  15thC/early16thC style, seen on the lady by Durer.

                                  Forgetting the sleeves for now, if you take the black dress and make it with a closed skirt and
                                  much higher (as Rashid said) and scooped and supportive (as Maddelena said in another post)
                                  neckline, you will have a Venetian underdress. Straighten out the underbust seam line, remove any
                                  darts, keep the V-neckline but make the dress able to be opened at the front (a button should do
                                  it) and you have the overdress to go with it.

                                  My focus in costuming is Venetian, so I have a bit written on this style here:

                                  <http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/seamstress/analysing1.htm> I hope you find it useful.
                                  You'll need a suitable camicia (shift) which you can find at either the reconstructinghistory.com
                                  site, or with the instructions re-worked by me here:

                                  <http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/seamstress/camiciahowto.htm>

                                  Please let me know if I can be of any more help. :)




                                  =====
                                  ****************************************
                                  Lady Bella http://au.geocities.com/bella_lucia_da_verona/

                                  *The Realm of Venus - Ladies Clothing in 16th Century Venice
                                  http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net
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                                • Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albiz
                                  I disagree. They would have had enough bust support not to cause a dip. The waist on this pattern just needs to be a little higher, and straightened out.
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                    I disagree. They would have had enough bust support not to cause a dip.
                                    The waist on this pattern just needs to be a little higher, and straightened
                                    out.

                                    Apollonia

                                    Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi

                                    Seneschal of the Incipient Canton of Salesberie Glen
                                    Kingdom of Atlantia
                                    www.livejournal.com/users/apollonia

                                    **La vita senz'onore e un viver morto.**

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: IceGirlNIN@... [mailto:IceGirlNIN@...]
                                    Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 4:20 PM
                                    To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Garb] Re: Simplicity 5294 - Italian Ren?


                                    I know very little about Italian Ren dress. However. If the costumes
                                    constructed for those photos were done with very little inner support
                                    (I'll save the
                                    Italian-corset debate for later), part of the "dip" might be caused by the
                                    weight of the breasts of the models, perhaps? That's the large version of
                                    the
                                    pattern. While I'm not a large woman, I know from my mother and my aunt
                                    that
                                    things need to be held in pretty well to avoid a dip.
                                    Reading other posts, you probably need to fix it anyway. But it could
                                    partially be caused by not enough support.

                                    Christine


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Susan Farmer
                                    ... there s also another painting of a similar dress by Bellini you can see a cropped color copy here
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                      > > Here is a link to a period pic by Durer that is what they seem to be
                                      > > copying:
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.gallery.euroweb.hu/html/d/durer/2/11/1/index.html
                                      > >
                                      > > scroll down and click on the pic of "Nuremberg and Venetian Women"
                                      > > 1496-97
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Rashid is absolutely correct on this one. The simplicity pattern is a copy of a very late
                                      > 15thC/early16thC style, seen on the lady by Durer.

                                      there's also another painting of a similar dress by Bellini
                                      you can see a cropped color copy here

                                      <http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/belinni_Procession.jpg>

                                      with a much more cropped BW copy here ...

                                      <http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/bellini_ProcessionDetail.jpg>

                                      and if you're dieing to see the whole painting, you can see The Procession
                                      in the Piazza of Saint Marco here

                                      <http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/b/bellini/gentile/miracl1.jpg>

                                      Jerusha
                                    • Bella
                                      ... Yep. Great shot of the train. And one day I may even get around to putting that one on the website. I ve had it saved on my comp for what seems like
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                        --- Susan Farmer <sfarmer@...> wrote: >
                                        > there's also another painting of a similar dress by Bellini
                                        > you can see a cropped color copy here
                                        >
                                        > <http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/belinni_Procession.jpg>
                                        >


                                        Yep. Great shot of the train. And one day I may even get around to putting that one on the
                                        website. I've had it saved on my comp for what seems like ages.....



                                        Bella

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