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Re: [SCA-Garb] babbling (was: just stumbled upon this - illuminated manuscripts)

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  • Rosine
    ... Both ears are better now and I m back to digging the house out from under the mounds of laundry, dishes, and take-out boxes that have accumulated while I
    Message 1 of 11 , May 1, 2002
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      > Hey, babble away! I hope the ear is better now.
      >
      > So what is your class focussing on? Embroidery? Beading?
      > Kylie

      Both ears are better now and I'm back to digging the house out from under
      the mounds of laundry, dishes, and take-out boxes that have accumulated
      while I was ill (two healthy menfolk in the house, one sick woman. You do
      the math!)

      Because I'm crazy, my class is focusing on - embellishment. Yes, the
      whole thing. I've got an overhead projector and transparency copies of works
      of art (or when I can get them, extant clothing) from the fall of the Roman
      Empire clear through to 1600. I'm taking a swipe at fabric patterns, woven
      or braided embellishment, embroidery, smocking, lacework, metal trimmings,
      beading, painted fabric, the use of cloth edgings and applique (with special
      attention paid to necklines), and a little discussion of such "minor"
      matters as hats, belts, shoes, and pouches which are used to liven up the
      look of the mid-period garb. I am not attempting to discuss cut or drape
      however! A girl's got to have her limits...
      It is a fast-paced overview, I admit. What I'm trying to do is show the
      trends and the repeating (or continuous) motifs throughout our study period.
      For example - the simple geometric "crosshatch" pattern is found on clothing
      (usually on the edges of clothing, especially at the neck) throughout our
      period of study - and I've got examples from pre-1000 through mid-1500... so
      if you were out of ideas on how to add that tiny finishing touch to your
      most recent project, hopefully after my class you could feel comfortable
      falling back on that motif.
      My goal is to give a fast overview and a good healthy handout (and
      reference list of art/articles on the web) that the student can use as a
      springboard for more focused investigation.

      Rosine
    • ivinian
      ... clothing ... throughout our ... 1500... Aah! Rosine! Please do feel free to elaborate. I have been thinking of doing that sort of embroidery at the edges
      Message 2 of 11 , May 1, 2002
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        --- In SCA-Garb@y..., "Rosine" <Rosine@s...> wrote:
        > For example - the simple geometric "crosshatch" pattern is found on
        clothing
        > (usually on the edges of clothing, especially at the neck)
        throughout our
        > period of study - and I've got examples from pre-1000 through mid-
        1500...

        Aah! Rosine! Please do feel free to elaborate. I have been thinking
        of doing that sort of embroidery at the edges of my court garb, when
        I make it. I want to embellish the cross-hatching with pearls or
        small gemstones (peridot is the first choice). I'm 15th-century
        Florence. My garb buddy's seen my designs and thinks I'm insane, but
        I think it'd look SO neat.

        Thanks much,
        Aoda
      • Rosine
        ... I m online now because my server is about to go down for maintenance in a few minutes. When I can get back online, I ll go searching and see if I have any
        Message 3 of 11 , May 1, 2002
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          I wrote:
          >> For example - the simple geometric "crosshatch" pattern is found
          >> on clothing (usually on the edges of clothing, especially at the neck)
          >> throughout our period of study - and I've got examples from
          >> pre-1000 through mid-1500...

          Aoda responded:
          > Aah! Rosine! Please do feel free to elaborate. I have been
          > thinking of doing that sort of embroidery at the edges of my
          > court garb, when I make it. I want to embellish the cross-hatching
          > with pearls or small gemstones (peridot is the first choice).
          > I'm 15th-century Florence. My garb buddy's seen my designs
          > and thinks I'm insane, but I think it'd look SO neat.

          I'm online now because my server is about to go down for maintenance in a
          few minutes. When I can get back online, I'll go searching and see if I have
          any online examples of art showing crosshatching from your particular locale
          and time. It'd help me if you had a link or two to a picture waiting for me
          (only because it is after midnight here, and I'm a little brainweary. It
          will be after 1am before I can get back online). I promise to post something
          by morning.

          Rosine
          (I think you idea sounds beautiful. Crazy, but beautiful. And Isay that as
          someone who embroiders full skirt designs completely around hems... in full,
          not just outline.)
        • ivinian
          ... neck) ... maintenance in a ... if I have ... particular locale ... waiting for me ... brainweary. It ... something ... that as ... in full, ... You re an
          Message 4 of 11 , May 1, 2002
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            --- In SCA-Garb@y..., "Rosine" <Rosine@s...> wrote:
            > I wrote:
            > >> For example - the simple geometric "crosshatch" pattern is found
            > >> on clothing (usually on the edges of clothing, especially at the
            neck)
            > >> throughout our period of study - and I've got examples from
            > >> pre-1000 through mid-1500...
            >
            > Aoda responded:
            > > Aah! Rosine! Please do feel free to elaborate. I have been
            > > thinking of doing that sort of embroidery at the edges of my
            > > court garb, when I make it. I want to embellish the cross-hatching
            > > with pearls or small gemstones (peridot is the first choice).
            > > I'm 15th-century Florence. My garb buddy's seen my designs
            > > and thinks I'm insane, but I think it'd look SO neat.
            >
            > I'm online now because my server is about to go down for
            maintenance in a
            > few minutes. When I can get back online, I'll go searching and see
            if I have
            > any online examples of art showing crosshatching from your
            particular locale
            > and time. It'd help me if you had a link or two to a picture
            waiting for me
            > (only because it is after midnight here, and I'm a little
            brainweary. It
            > will be after 1am before I can get back online). I promise to post
            something
            > by morning.
            >
            > Rosine
            > (I think you idea sounds beautiful. Crazy, but beautiful. And Isay
            that as
            > someone who embroiders full skirt designs completely around hems...
            in full,
            > not just outline.)

            You're an angel. Thank you. The closest thing to what I want is the
            Ghirlandaio portraits here, each featuring a tabard-gown (giornea)
            open at the sides over a dress:

            http://sunsite.dk/cgfa/ghirlandaio/p-ghirlandaio2.htm

            http://www.museothyssen.org/museovirtual/fichas/obraampliada.asp?
            codigo=514

            Except my idea would be to have a solid colored or jacquard silk
            outer tabard-gown with cross-hatch embroidery all along its edges,
            with a cluster of pearls/gems at regular intersections. I also want
            to do the flowers/leaves going down the sides of the second pink
            gown, but I'll have to decide when I get fabric if that's going to
            look right.

            Thanks enormously!

            Aoda
          • Rosine
            ... Hokay - you want something Italian c 1488... I m looking... http://sunsite.dk/cgfa/ghirlandaio/p-ghirlandaio2.htm as a quick aside - take a look at the
            Message 5 of 11 , May 2, 2002
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              > You're an angel. Thank you. The closest thing to what I want is the
              > Ghirlandaio portraits here, each featuring a tabard-gown (giornea)
              > open at the sides over a dress:
              >
              > http://sunsite.dk/cgfa/ghirlandaio/p-ghirlandaio2.htm
              >
              > http://www.museothyssen.org/museovirtual/fichas/obraampliada.asp?
              > codigo=514
              >
              > Except my idea would be to have a solid colored or jacquard silk
              > outer tabard-gown with cross-hatch embroidery all along its edges,
              > with a cluster of pearls/gems at regular intersections. I also want
              > to do the flowers/leaves going down the sides of the second pink
              > gown, but I'll have to decide when I get fabric if that's going to
              > look right.

              Hokay - you want something Italian c 1488... I'm looking...
              http://sunsite.dk/cgfa/ghirlandaio/p-ghirlandaio2.htm
              as a quick aside - take a look at the edging on the blue gown at the far
              left. See? Simple geometric design.

              http://www.museothyssen.org/museovirtual/fichas/obraampliada.asp?codigo=514
              Note - crosshatching on sleeves, with flower-pendants (perhaps) hanging from
              each cross point. (Your example is a little darker than the copy I have from
              the Smithsonian. Museum postcards. Gotta love 'em!)

              However, I'm not seeing, with the two examples, any edging being done at
              all down the front openings of the gowns. That might be a stylistic thing,
              or simply a problem due to lack of examples. But even the lady in waiting
              behind the "young princess" has only the richness of the fabric and her
              buttons to embellish the overgown.

              Now, about crosshatching...
              see our little Saxon prince, notice his neckline?
              http://www.marquise.de/1500/pics/1517_4.shtml

              Well, anyway, I'm not being much help to your particular quest. What I can
              deduct, from the two pictures (I've been looking for more from the
              period/area, but am coming up empty) is that a beautifully patterned
              material is highlighted by it's use in smooth draping... so, were I to want
              to embellish that piece with crosshatching, I'd do a large overall design
              specifically intended to draw the eye to the smooth flow of fabric over
              chest and shoulder and down to floor.

              Rosine
              (not very helpful, was I?)
            • Jenn Ridley
              ... Did you look at the picture referenced (http://www.museothyssen.org/museovirtual/fichas/obraampliada.asp?codigo=514)? It s really a lot easier to see than
              Message 6 of 11 , May 2, 2002
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                On Thu, 02 May 2002 14:05:55 -0700, Báine <baine@...> wrote:

                >
                >Probably a dumb question, but I've been embroidering for <mumble mumble>
                >years and I've never heard of "cross-hatch" embroidery. Is this maybe
                >something I know of with a different name?

                Did you look at the picture referenced
                (http://www.museothyssen.org/museovirtual/fichas/obraampliada.asp?codigo=514)?
                It's really a lot easier to see than it is to describe, but I'll give
                it a shot. In this case, it's referring to the gold ribbons on the
                brocaded sleeves.

                Cross-hatch is a pattern, rather than a type of embroidery. It's
                criss-crossed lines. One set of parallel lines intersects another.
                It can be obvious (as in this case), or more subdued (no pics, sorry).
                It can be done on a large scale (lines 2-3 inches apart) or a much
                smaller scale (I did some at 1/2 inch apart for a doublet for DH).
                It's often done with ribbons, tacked down at the crossings, sometimes
                with a bead or pearl at the intersection.

                jenn
                --
                Jenn Ridley
                jridley@...
              • Rosine
                ... No, just inpercise verbage on my part. The crosshatching that I ve been referring to is simply the design itself, executed in any number of ways (woven,
                Message 7 of 11 , May 2, 2002
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                  > Probably a dumb question, but I've been
                  > embroidering for <mumble mumble>
                  > years and I've never heard of "cross-hatch"
                  > embroidery. Is this maybe
                  > something I know of with a different name?
                  >
                  > Báine

                  No, just inpercise verbage on my part. The crosshatching that I've been
                  referring to is simply the design itself, executed in any number of ways
                  (woven, couched, stemstitch, whatever) as an embellishment motif.
                  Sorry about the confusion!

                  Rosine
                • Carolle M Cox
                  Rows of outline stitch (or backstitching, or stem stitch) which cross each other, creating a square sitting on its point. You can do these by the gazillions,
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 2, 2002
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                    Rows of outline stitch (or backstitching, or stem stitch) which cross each
                    other, creating a square sitting on its point. You can do these by the
                    gazillions, and they end up looking like a rather large cross-hatching.
                    Make sense?

                    Gerita

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Báine" <baine@...>
                    To: <SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 4:05 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Garb] Cross-hatch embroidery (was Re: babbling)



                    Probably a dumb question, but I've been embroidering for <mumble mumble>
                    years and I've never heard of "cross-hatch" embroidery. Is this maybe
                    something I know of with a different name?

                    Báine


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                  • Báine
                    Probably a dumb question, but I ve been embroidering for years and I ve never heard of cross-hatch embroidery. Is this maybe something I
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 2, 2002
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                      Probably a dumb question, but I've been embroidering for <mumble mumble>
                      years and I've never heard of "cross-hatch" embroidery. Is this maybe
                      something I know of with a different name?

                      Báine
                    • ivinian
                      Oh, thank you! I sure do appreciate your looking. I ve found an additional example of a cross-hatched bodice, but no overgowns.
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 2, 2002
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                        Oh, thank you! I sure do appreciate your looking. I've found an
                        additional example of a cross-hatched bodice, but no overgowns.

                        http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/d/durer/painting/portrait/venetian.jpg

                        Problem is, it's a) Venetian and b) 1510, about 20 years after my
                        period. But it's an interesting effect. (I actually found it while
                        researching that necklace, but it caught my attention for the bodice
                        decoration too.)

                        Your keen eye has given me some new inspirations though ;) I don't
                        know if I'm crazy enough to allover embroider anything (though that
                        *was* the original idea, and one which my garb buddy did well to talk
                        me out of, with the sound reasoning that I'd finish it somewhere
                        along 2012), but there are lots of other ideas.. I just want to strew
                        peridots and pearls all over the place, is my problem.

                        Thanks again!
                        Aoda



                        --- In SCA-Garb@y..., "Rosine" <Rosine@s...> wrote:
                        > > You're an angel. Thank you. The closest thing to what I want is
                        the
                        > > Ghirlandaio portraits here, each featuring a tabard-gown (giornea)
                        > > open at the sides over a dress:
                        > >
                        > > http://sunsite.dk/cgfa/ghirlandaio/p-ghirlandaio2.htm
                        > >
                        > > http://www.museothyssen.org/museovirtual/fichas/obraampliada.asp?
                        > > codigo=514
                        > >
                        > > Except my idea would be to have a solid colored or jacquard silk
                        > > outer tabard-gown with cross-hatch embroidery all along its edges,
                        > > with a cluster of pearls/gems at regular intersections. I also
                        want
                        > > to do the flowers/leaves going down the sides of the second pink
                        > > gown, but I'll have to decide when I get fabric if that's going to
                        > > look right.
                        >
                        > Hokay - you want something Italian c 1488... I'm looking...
                        > http://sunsite.dk/cgfa/ghirlandaio/p-ghirlandaio2.htm
                        > as a quick aside - take a look at the edging on the blue gown at
                        the far
                        > left. See? Simple geometric design.
                        >
                        > http://www.museothyssen.org/museovirtual/fichas/obraampliada.asp?
                        codigo=514
                        > Note - crosshatching on sleeves, with flower-pendants (perhaps)
                        hanging from
                        > each cross point. (Your example is a little darker than the copy I
                        have from
                        > the Smithsonian. Museum postcards. Gotta love 'em!)
                        >
                        > However, I'm not seeing, with the two examples, any edging being
                        done at
                        > all down the front openings of the gowns. That might be a stylistic
                        thing,
                        > or simply a problem due to lack of examples. But even the lady in
                        waiting
                        > behind the "young princess" has only the richness of the fabric and
                        her
                        > buttons to embellish the overgown.
                        >
                        > Now, about crosshatching...
                        > see our little Saxon prince, notice his neckline?
                        > http://www.marquise.de/1500/pics/1517_4.shtml
                        >
                        > Well, anyway, I'm not being much help to your particular quest.
                        What I can
                        > deduct, from the two pictures (I've been looking for more from the
                        > period/area, but am coming up empty) is that a beautifully patterned
                        > material is highlighted by it's use in smooth draping... so, were I
                        to want
                        > to embellish that piece with crosshatching, I'd do a large overall
                        design
                        > specifically intended to draw the eye to the smooth flow of fabric
                        over
                        > chest and shoulder and down to floor.
                        >
                        > Rosine
                        > (not very helpful, was I?)
                      • kjgarb
                        ... Because I m crazy, my class is focusing on - embellishment. Yes, the whole thing. SNIP ... reference list of art/articles on the web) that the student can
                        Message 11 of 11 , May 14, 2002
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                          >
                          Because I'm crazy, my class is focusing on - embellishment. Yes, the
                          whole thing.
                          SNIP
                          >My goal is to give a fast overview and a good healthy handout (and
                          reference list of art/articles on the web) that the student can use
                          as a springboard for more focused investigation.
                          >
                          > Rosine

                          I'm a bit too far away to attend in person, but would you be willing
                          to let me have a look at your handout, if it can be sent by email?
                          Kylie
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