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Florentine gown questions

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  • frostymama@earthlink.net
    I after the replies that I recieved from my Re-doing garb after weightloss post I think that Florentine is probably the best (easiest and cheapest) way to
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 13, 2001
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      I after the replies that I recieved from my "Re-doing garb after
      weightloss post" I think that Florentine is probably the best
      (easiest and cheapest) way to go. The skirt on my gown is already cut
      in the same manner. All I have to do is change the size/style of the
      pleats and make a bodice and sleeves. I have a ton of questions. :)

      The only site that I found on Florentine gown constrution is
      http://polaris.umuc.edu/~jthies/mcitalrennotes.html. Are there any
      other sites? Are the bodice pieces on that site shaped correctly? It
      seems like the logical way to construct it without darts or princess
      seams, but I want to make sure that it is correct before I draft a
      pattern and make a muslin.

      I found a better copy of the painting on that page and blew it up so
      I could see the details better. I uploaded the blown-up copy to
      http://home.earthlink.net/~frostymama/march2.jpg (It may take a
      moment to load, but there is a lot more detail)

      1. It appears that the waistline on this style gown is at the bottom
      of the breast bone. Is this correct? It doesn't seem to end
      directly under the bust like the one I did before, but the waist
      still seems higher than the later-period styles.

      2. Are there any foundation garments required, or is the bodice
      meant to be self supporting (I'm assuming self-supporting from the
      painting). If I will not be fitting it over a period foundation
      garment, would it be appropriate to fit the bodice over a sports
      bra? It looks like that is the basic style of support/shape that the
      finished bodice is supposed to give. I seriously doubt that I will
      be able to get the fit tight enough if I have to support my bustline
      in the right position/shape with my other hand. ;)

      3. There appears to be approx 5-6 sets of lacing holes on the front
      of the bodice that the lady with the shears is wearing, but that the
      front opening of the gown extends past the crotch line. Does that
      sound about right? Where is the neckline supposed to fall? It looks
      to me like it is not high enough to cover the entire chest area, but
      not showin a ton of clevage. Would it be appropriate to put the
      neckline right where clevage would start to show? Does it need to be
      lower or higher?

      4. The belt is confusing me. Is it anchored to the gown in the
      back, or is it free to slide around as some have sugested? On the
      gowns that the woman with the shears and the woman in green and black
      at the bottom right hand corner that there is some sort of clasp on
      the front of the belt. What kind of clasp is appropriate?

      5.Are the sleeves sewn into the arm opening, or are they tied in?
      I'm assuming that the seem on the sleeve goes along the back of the
      arm and that the elbow and forearm are open, but the wrist is laced
      shut. Are tipets not appropriate for this gown, or are all of the
      ends or the laces tucked in?

      6. The woman in white with dark sleeves on the left side appears to
      be wearing some sort of an apron, but it doesn't tie in the back or
      have any visible closure. Would it have been pinned on or sewn to
      the belt? Any other ideas? She also appears to have something in
      her right hand which looks like it has been stuffed up her sleeve....
      is this just some sort of a rag, or does it have some significance?

      7. Next to the woman in white is a very pregnant looking woman in a
      sort of red and gold print gown. It looks to me like she is wearing
      some sort of overdress over a basic florentine gown. It has a v-
      neckline and is belted. The sleves are very large and drap at the
      elbows. Does anyone know if this garment has a special name? Does
      anyone know of a painting where I can get a better look at one?
    • frostymama@earthlink.net
      That first link should be http://polaris.umuc.edu/~jthies/mcitalrennotes.html for some reason there is a period after the link in my first post.
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 13, 2001
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        That first link should be


        http://polaris.umuc.edu/~jthies/mcitalrennotes.html

        for some reason there is a period after the link in my first post.
      • unclrashid@aol.com
        ... It ... princess ... People could argue about whether the shaping of the bodice should be in the center seam or the side seams, but either will give
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 13, 2001
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          --- In SCA-Garb@y..., frostymama@e... wrote:


          >
          > The only site that I found on Florentine gown constrution is
          > http://polaris.umuc.edu/~jthies/mcitalrennotes.html. Are there any
          > other sites? Are the bodice pieces on that site shaped correctly?
          It
          > seems like the logical way to construct it without darts or
          princess
          > seams, but I want to make sure that it is correct before I draft a
          > pattern and make a muslin.

          People could argue about whether the shaping of the bodice should be
          in the center seam or the side seams, but either will give something
          that looks like the picture. If you are busty. shaping the center
          seam would prbably give you a better fit.

          >
          > I found a better copy of the painting on that page and blew it up
          so
          > I could see the details better. I uploaded the blown-up copy to
          > http://home.earthlink.net/~frostymama/march2.jpg (It may take a
          > moment to load, but there is a lot more detail)

          Excellent picture, I'm bookmarking this!

          >
          > 1. It appears that the waistline on this style gown is at the
          bottom
          > of the breast bone. Is this correct? It doesn't seem to end
          > directly under the bust like the one I did before, but the waist
          > still seems higher than the later-period styles.

          Definitely a little high waisted. Depending on your figure, breast-
          bone would look right. If you are short-waisted and plump, that
          might come out to be close to your "actual" wasitline.
          >
          > 2. Are there any foundation garments required, or is the bodice
          > meant to be self supporting (I'm assuming self-supporting from the
          > painting). If I will not be fitting it over a period foundation
          > garment, would it be appropriate to fit the bodice over a sports
          > bra? It looks like that is the basic style of support/shape that
          the
          > finished bodice is supposed to give. I seriously doubt that I will
          > be able to get the fit tight enough if I have to support my
          bustline
          > in the right position/shape with my other hand. ;)


          I think the sportsbra is the way to go. THey probably used a tight-
          fitting cotte undreneath, but you will notice these girls in the
          picture are mostly slender-ish with almosrt virginal bustlines.

          >
          > 3. There appears to be approx 5-6 sets of lacing holes on the
          front
          > of the bodice that the lady with the shears is wearing, but that
          the
          > front opening of the gown extends past the crotch line. Does that
          > sound about right? Where is the neckline supposed to fall? It
          looks
          > to me like it is not high enough to cover the entire chest area,
          but
          > not showin a ton of clevage. Would it be appropriate to put the
          > neckline right where clevage would start to show? Does it need to
          be
          > lower or higher?
          > 4. The belt is confusing me. Is it anchored to the gown in the
          > back, or is it free to slide around as some have sugested? On the
          > gowns that the woman with the shears and the woman in green and
          black
          > at the bottom right hand corner that there is some sort of clasp on
          > the front of the belt. What kind of clasp is appropriate?

          I think the neckline should come to about the cleavage.

          I think what you are interpreting as the opening in the skirt is the
          end of a tan belt, hanging down. Look at the girl on the bottom
          right. Her belt has a long end hanging down and you can see the
          holes in it. I would thing that a plain simple buckle would do for
          this. You can find people selling belts like this (but decorated
          with little metal flowers. etc) at Pennsic. I dont think the belts
          were attached, but you could make thread-loop keepers if it doesn't
          stay up as you like.

          >
          > 5.Are the sleeves sewn into the arm opening, or are they tied in?
          > I'm assuming that the seem on the sleeve goes along the back of the
          > arm and that the elbow and forearm are open, but the wrist is laced
          > shut. Are tipets not appropriate for this gown, or are all of the
          > ends or the laces tucked in?

          THey look sewn in to me. Some of them seem to be on the undergown,
          rather than the over gown, but I may be wrong there, maybe they are
          just intended to simulate an undergown.

          >
          > 6. The woman in white with dark sleeves on the left side appears to
          > be wearing some sort of an apron, but it doesn't tie in the back or
          > have any visible closure. Would it have been pinned on or sewn to
          > the belt? Any other ideas? She also appears to have something in
          > her right hand which looks like it has been stuffed up her
          sleeve....
          > is this just some sort of a rag, or does it have some significance?

          The apron is definetely just a rectangle of fabric. can't really
          tell how it is attached. I would just put a piece of twill tape on
          it and close it with hook & eye. A pin in the right place for that
          could rip people up if you back into them by mistake.

          I am not sure I see the rag. Maybe you are referring to what I
          interpret as a slit in the sleeve with her chemise showing through.

          >
          > 7. Next to the woman in white is a very pregnant looking woman in
          a
          > sort of red and gold print gown. It looks to me like she is
          wearing
          > some sort of overdress over a basic florentine gown. It has a v-
          > neckline and is belted. The sleves are very large and drap at the
          > elbows. Does anyone know if this garment has a special name? Does
          > anyone know of a painting where I can get a better look at one?

          The maybe-pregnant women is wearing a sort of proto-houppelande
          gown. I think the name for this is ropa. THe regular dress is
          called a giornea (which means "daily") I think the overdress can
          also be called cioppa, but I may be wrong there.

          THere is a great book that I think is out of print that covers this
          period. I only saw it once, twenty years ago and don't remember the
          name, but I think it had this picture (At least this period) on the
          dustjacket. Maybe somebody else knows the name?

          Rashid
        • michaela de bruce
          ... the ... I think I know what book you mean. I recently got a book out of the library that looked at Italian Dress of the late 15thC. I m just checking the
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 13, 2001
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            > There is a great book that I think is out of print that covers this
            > period. I only saw it once, twenty years ago and don't remember
            the
            > name, but I think it had this picture (At least this period) on the
            > dustjacket. Maybe somebody else knows the name?


            I think I know what book you mean. I recently got a book out of the
            library that looked at Italian Dress of the late 15thC. I'm just
            checking the full title, it's where I got the images for my site (now
            with links to the images that are off site, took forever I might add):
            http://frazzledfrau.tripod.com , under "other countries". All black
            and white, the piccies I chose show lacings on the sides of dresses
            (in portraits as well as allegorical/religious paintings)

            Title : Dress in Italian painting, 1460-1500 / Elizabeth Birbari.
            Author : Birbari, Elizabeth.
            Call Number : 759.5 BIR
            Publisher : London : J. Murray, [1975]
            That's the book I had.It's borrowed at the moment. It is full of b/w
            imageswith some pattern experimentsby the author. And the artist of
            the paintings in this thread are represented in the book.
            It deatils the type of pleats seen, fastenings etc. The author does
            state that her aim of the book is not to say "this is what they wore"
            but what is represented in the paintings.

            I might request the book again.

            michela
          • frostymama@earthlink.net
            ... Yep.. I am sort busty :) ... Won t be problem, but I will keep it in mind. I am 6 foot tall and pretty long waisted. ... So should I be wearing a
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 14, 2001
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              --- In SCA-Garb@y..., unclrashid@a... wrote:

              >People could argue about whether the shaping of the bodice should be
              >in the center seam or the side seams, but either will give something
              >that looks like the picture. If you are busty. shaping the center
              >seam would prbably give you a better fit.

              Yep.. I am sort busty :)

              > Definitely a little high waisted. Depending on your figure, breast-
              > bone would look right. If you are short-waisted and plump, that
              > might come out to be close to your "actual" wasitline.

              Won't be problem, but I will keep it in mind. I am 6 foot tall and
              pretty long waisted.


              > I think the sportsbra is the way to go. They probably used a tight-
              > fitting cotte undreneath, but you will notice these girls in the
              > picture are mostly slender-ish with almosrt virginal bustlines.
              >

              So should I be wearing a tight-fitting cote under the gown when I
              wear it to events or should the bodice be self-supporting if I fit it
              sug enough?


              > I think the neckline should come to about the cleavage.
              >
              > I think what you are interpreting as the opening in the skirt is
              the
              > end of a tan belt, hanging down. Look at the girl on the bottom
              > right. Her belt has a long end hanging down and you can see the
              > holes in it. I would thing that a plain simple buckle would do for
              > this. You can find people selling belts like this (but decorated
              > with little metal flowers. etc) at Pennsic. I dont think the belts
              > were attached, but you could make thread-loop keepers if it doesn't
              > stay up as you like.

              I think you are right. That does took like the tal of a belt.

              > The maybe-pregnant women is wearing a sort of proto-houppelande
              > gown. I think the name for this is ropa. THe regular dress is
              > called a giornea (which means "daily") I think the overdress can
              > also be called cioppa, but I may be wrong there.


              Thank you so much for telling me what it was called. I thought it
              looked sort of like a houppelande, but not exactly. I knew it had to
              have a nae.
            • unclrashid@aol.com
              ... tight- ... it ... Depending on the fabric you choose, the bodice may be self-supporting (with the help of a sports bra), but if you can t get that to work,
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 14, 2001
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                --- In SCA-Garb@y..., frostymama@e... wrote:

                > > I think the sportsbra is the way to go. They probably used a
                tight-
                > > fitting cotte undreneath, but you will notice these girls in the
                > > picture are mostly slender-ish with almosrt virginal bustlines.
                > >
                >
                > So should I be wearing a tight-fitting cote under the gown when I
                > wear it to events or should the bodice be self-supporting if I fit
                it
                > sug enough?

                Depending on the fabric you choose, the bodice may be self-supporting
                (with the help of a sports bra), but if you can't get that to work,
                use a tight cotte and then the bodice will only have to do 1/2 as
                much work.


                > > The maybe-pregnant women is wearing a sort of proto-houppelande
                > > gown. I think the name for this is ropa. THe regular dress is
                > > called a giornea (which means "daily") I think the overdress can
                > > also be called cioppa, but I may be wrong there.
                >
                >
                > Thank you so much for telling me what it was called. I thought it
                > looked sort of like a houppelande, but not exactly. I knew it had
                to
                > have a nae.

                That's not really a very precise name, its sort of like when you know
                what your context is, you can call a garment a "suit" and everyone
                knows what you are talking about, but a VIctorian suit is not the
                same as the suit you would wear to work today. In this context
                giornea means something like "everyday dress" or "regualar dress" and
                ropa means something like "robe" "gown" or "overgown" (in that gown
                sort of includes the idea of the outermost robe). Some garments did
                have names that were distinctive and characteristic of their period,
                but other garments and periods just sort of used names equivalent
                to "clothes", "shirt" etc.


                Rashid
              • Luscious Garb
                Salutations! I m working on a Florentine gown similar to this portrait. http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/florentine/flor22.html There is also this red
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 28, 2009
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                  Salutations!
                  I'm working on a Florentine gown similar to this portrait.

                  http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/florentine/flor22.html

                  There is also this red gown, but I don't remember the year it was done.
                  http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qJAeIAGx229trAOEFGlFlg?feat=directlink

                  The waist is straight across the front along the natural waist(My natural
                  waist is very high.) The sleeves are huge and probably spanish.

                  But due to losing weight after I started the bodice, I may not have enough
                  of the plum brocade to do those sleeves. Since I'm redoing the bodice,
                  cutting it out again, I wanted to know if I could use a matching plum cotton
                  velvet for the sleeves, bottom guard on the skirt, and possibly guards on
                  the bodice. Or perhaps a strip along the waist? I was also thinking of
                  making it front lacing with a flap to cover the lacing. I can't see the
                  bodice very well, nor can I see the back. And I already tried side-back
                  lacing. It didn't work so well to get in and out of. As I am very blessed up
                  top. ;)

                  I LOVE those sleeves. Is the white guazy looking fabric a lining for the
                  sleeves or part of the chemise? What are the orange tight sleeves at the
                  wrists? I mean, is there a chemise under those 3 layers?

                  The fabric I am using is this:

                  http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/aRlvKLaCaAO1APtYN1gDvQ?feat=directlink

                  The skirt is started. Meaning that it is sewn together and pleated (pinned)
                  ready to be attached to the bodice. The bodice 'was' almost done, but it
                  doesn't fit now. So I was just going to start over with it as some of the
                  lines (edges) I wish to change the shape/angle of. Plus, I want to change
                  the shoulder straps to make them fit better. I am trying to be more
                  authentic, but am running out of the 6 yds of brocade fabric.

                  Just wondering what you all thought.

                  Thanks,
                  Caterina Fortuna
                  AnTir


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bonnie Booker
                  Velveteen may be a little heavy for the sleeves. I made the gown from purple satin. The gauzy white is like a lining for the sleeve. This way the open part is
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 27, 2009
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                    Velveteen may be a little heavy for the sleeves. I made the gown from purple
                    satin. The gauzy white is like a lining for the sleeve. This way the open
                    part is covered. I cut it from the same pattern as the sleeve, but without
                    the opening. I then sewed them into the armhole as if they were one piece.
                    The orange sleeve beneath I made in a dark pink. I did it as a tie-on closed
                    sleeve. It is just a regular sleeve, but with ties instead of sewn in. I put
                    loops on the shoulders of the gown to tie it to. I wear a sleeveless chemise
                    under it...but then I'm in Trimaris (Florida).

                    If you lost weight, you can just take it up the side. If you gained, add a 2
                    strips on each side of the back opening. You can then do the lacing holes on
                    theses.




                    >
                    >
                    > http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/florentine/flor22.html
                    >
                    > There is also this red gown, but I don't remember the year it was done.
                    > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qJAeIAGx229trAOEFGlFlg?feat=directlink
                    >
                    > The waist is straight across the front along the natural waist(My natural
                    > waist is very high.) The sleeves are huge and probably spanish.
                    >
                    > But due to losing weight after I started the bodice, I may not have enough
                    > of the plum brocade to do those sleeves. Since I'm redoing the bodice,
                    > cutting it out again, I wanted to know if I could use a matching plum
                    > cotton
                    > velvet for the sleeves, bottom guard on the skirt, and possibly guards on
                    > the bodice. Or perhaps a strip along the waist? I was also thinking of
                    > making it front lacing with a flap to cover the lacing. I can't see the
                    > bodice very well, nor can I see the back. And I already tried side-back
                    > lacing. It didn't work so well to get in and out of. As I am very blessed
                    > up
                    > top. ;)
                    >
                    > I LOVE those sleeves. Is the white guazy looking fabric a lining for the
                    > sleeves or part of the chemise? What are the orange tight sleeves at the
                    > wrists? I mean, is there a chemise under those 3 layers?
                    >
                    > The fabric I am using is this:
                    >
                    > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/aRlvKLaCaAO1APtYN1gDvQ?feat=directlink
                    >
                    > The skirt is started. Meaning that it is sewn together and pleated (pinned)
                    > ready to be attached to the bodice. The bodice 'was' almost done, but it
                    > doesn't fit now. So I was just going to start over with it as some of the
                    > lines (edges) I wish to change the shape/angle of. Plus, I want to change
                    > the shoulder straps to make them fit better. I am trying to be more
                    > authentic, but am running out of the 6 yds of brocade fabric.
                    >
                    >



                    --
                    Aspasia Moonwind


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • neimhaille
                    ... Do not cut new fabric for the bodice yet! Refit the bodice from lining and interlining fabric first and see what you can salvage from the bodice you have
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 2, 2010
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                      > I'm working on a Florentine gown similar to this portrait.
                      >
                      > http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/florentine/flor22.html
                      >
                      > There is also this red gown, but I don't remember the year it was done.
                      > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qJAeIAGx229trAOEFGlFlg?feat=directlink
                      >
                      > The waist is straight across the front along the natural waist(My natural
                      > waist is very high.) The sleeves are huge and probably spanish.
                      >
                      > But due to losing weight after I started the bodice, I may not have enough
                      > of the plum brocade to do those sleeves. Since I'm redoing the bodice,
                      > cutting it out again,

                      Do not cut new fabric for the bodice yet! Refit the bodice from lining and interlining fabric first and see what you can salvage from the bodice you have already cut. You will almost certainly be able to reuse more than you think. Also think about piecing the sleeves and bodice it's a great fabric saver and the period practice ;)
                      http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/florentine/flor6.html
                      http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/florentine/flor11.html
                      With this bodice style you can probably cut the shoulders separately thus saving more fabric (cutting shoulders in one with the body wastes a lot of fabric). I do this all the time as it helps support a wide neckline (the shoulders and front and back all wind up with the grain of fabric and don't stretch) and for fitting close into the nook between bust and shoulder. With the guarding the seams at the corners of the neckline will be disguised. I'm not sure but there may be a portrait or two from around this time with wider guarding than in these two examples in conjunction with wide hanging sleeves.
                      Also remember you can piece the brocade while making the lining and interlining all one piece.

                      I do not recommend making the sleeves from a totally different fabric. There are very styles that works for (and are usually separate sleeves pinned/tied in or from an undergarment).
                      http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/florentine/flor11.html
                      And in this region they seem to be ballon shaped rather than hanging when they are clearly different.

                      However if you were okay with moving your inspiration a little you will be able to use the vevet as guarding and thus save more fabric. You do not have to have the brocade go all the way under the guarding after all.

                      I'd try and stick with the side back lacing but you an probably make the opening come closer to under the arms than towards the back which makes it easier to get to the lacing yourself.

                      > I LOVE those sleeves. Is the white guazy looking fabric a lining for the
                      > sleeves or part of the chemise? What are the orange tight sleeves at the
                      > wrists? I mean, is there a chemise under those 3 layers?

                      This is possibly that great artistic convention of Making Thing Up Because They Look Pretty or it could be a fake chemise layer or it may be a full chemise worn over a more practical chemise (possible support layer) and these sleeves.
                      For practicallity and for the ability to make things as multifuntional as possible I'd make it as a full chemise and wear a less ostentatious chemise under it all.

                      Meesteres Willemyne van Nymegen,
                      http://glittersweet.com
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