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Re: Cotton Bubble Gauze - Period??

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  • Betti
    The cotton bubble fabric you are talking about is also called seersucker and is more common to the late 1800 s early 1900 s. You would be better off making a
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 2 9:19 PM
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      The cotton bubble fabric you are talking about is also called seersucker and is more common to the late 1800's early 1900's. You would be better off making a bog dress from crinkle cotton or linen for day wear. Peronally I have some old Egyptian Linen mismatched top sheets who's bottom sheets long since disapeared. I'm making a couple of bog dresses/Pennisc mumu's out of those.

      Hermina De Pagan

      --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy Fletcher" <kathyfletcher99@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi all! I'm looking toward summer and Pennsic and trying to find something VERY comfortable and breathable. Can Cotton Bubble Gauze fabric (found at Fabric.com) be considered period? 12th century Irish.
      > What do ya think??
      > Caissene
      >
    • Antoinette Mangan
      Cotton, though not nearly as popular in Europe as it is today, is a bit more period that most believe: http://www.elizabethancostume.net/cibas/ciba64.html
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 3 6:17 AM
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        Cotton, though not nearly as popular in Europe as it is today, is a bit
        more period that most believe:

        http://www.elizabethancostume.net/cibas/ciba64.html

        Anthoinette

        On 4/1/2011 1:52 PM, Sharon Palmer wrote:
        >
        > >100% Linen fabric will do what you want, and be a period option.
        >
        > Good fine linen is cooler, more comfortable, looks better, and wears
        > better than cotton. Real linen, stay away from synthetics. Or from
        > coarse, heavy "homespun" looking linen (which actually isn't all that
        > period, the homespinners were better than that).
        >
        > If cotton is what you can find and afford, then use it. Just don't
        > claim that it's period. But I'd look for plain gauze rather than
        > bubble gauze, that texture is just too different than any period
        > material I've seen.
        >
        > Ranvaig
        >
        > _



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      • Bonnie Booker
        Cotton was grown and used for clothes in Egypt and used throughout the Mideast. More common than the more expensive linen. Also popular in other Med countries
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 3 7:29 AM
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          Cotton was grown and used for clothes in Egypt and used throughout the
          Mideast. More common than the more expensive linen. Also popular in other
          Med countries such as Spain and Italy. There is much evidence of cotton from
          the crusades. Solid colors were most common, black for white or embroidered
          dresses. Also stripes popular in Spain.
          I can give you the book, as soon as I get my books, I'm in process of
          moving.
          --
          *Maitresse Aspasia *


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bonnie Booker
          YES! That s the book I was waiting for. Another SCA myth exposed. (and yes, pink is period too.) Thanks. ... -- *Maitresse Aspasia * [Non-text portions of this
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 4 7:25 AM
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            YES! That's the book I was waiting for. Another SCA myth exposed. (and yes,
            pink is period too.) Thanks.


            >
            > Cotton, though not nearly as popular in Europe as it is today, is a bit
            > more period that most believe:
            >
            > http://www.elizabethancostume.net/cibas/ciba64.html
            >
            > Anthoinette
            >
            --
            *Maitresse Aspasia *


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
            Maitresse Aspasia, I look forward to that info from the European perspective. Thank you for offering! Here is what I have about Egypt in the Middle Ages from
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 4 12:02 PM
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              Maitresse Aspasia, I look forward to that info from the European
              perspective. Thank you for offering!

              Here is what I have about Egypt in the Middle Ages from the Middle
              Eastern perspective. According to S.D. Goitein in _A Mediterranean
              Society, Vol 1_, examinations of trade records reveal that cotton was
              available but it was quite rare. In Egypt in the 11th century, flax
              trade and linen production out paced *every* other commodity in trade.
              Wool production came in second among the textiles, and sericulture
              products (silk) were still made in measurably higher quantities than cotton.

              Marianne Erickson notes "It was not until the 13th century that the
              cotton culture in Egypt actually reached a great level of importance,
              and it is only in the last century that the long-fibred type of cotton
              has been known, " in her book _Textiles in Egypt 300-1500 AD_.
              (Personally, I don't know that I could identify a short-staple cotton).
              This is supported by Golombek and Gervers in their article "Tiraz
              Fabrics in the Royal Ontario Museum" where they note that until the
              about 12th century, the western Islamic world only used cotton as
              decorative threads (this would include Islamic Spain during this period,
              but I don't know about Christian Spain).

              Cotton seems to be frequently mixed with other fibers in extant tiraz
              pieces (for example, held in the Royal Ontario Museum, The Museum of
              Islamic Art in Cairo; and found in the Quseir al-Qadim excavations) and
              those pieces are relatively small.

              Yedida Stillman, in her dissertation indicated that many times the
              ma'raqa, a sweat cap worn by men and women, was made of cotton according
              to trousseau lists. I have not transcribed everything, but I have no
              other mention of cotton *in period* from this work (her study of Lane's
              travels during the 19th century mention cotton several times).

              Perhaps a hint of the European connection comes from S.D. Goitein (also
              from Vol 1), cotton goods are recorded as being imported from Tunisia
              and India, but there is "next to nothing" recorded of the fibers being
              manufactured into something. Perhaps it was re-exported?


              I hope that helps,
              Sayyeda al-Kaslaania

              On 4/3/2011 9:29 AM, Bonnie Booker wrote:
              > Cotton was grown and used for clothes in Egypt and used throughout the
              > Mideast. More common than the more expensive linen. Also popular in other
              > Med countries such as Spain and Italy. There is much evidence of cotton from
              > the crusades. Solid colors were most common, black for white or embroidered
              > dresses. Also stripes popular in Spain.
              > I can give you the book, as soon as I get my books, I'm in process of
              > moving.
            • Sharon Palmer
              ... None of that makes bubble gauze period for Ireland, which is one the least likely places in Europe to find cotton. Like I said, use it everyone else does,
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 4 2:19 PM
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                >YES! That's the book I was waiting for. Another SCA myth exposed. (and yes,
                >pink is period too.) Thanks.
                >
                > > Cotton, though not nearly as popular in Europe as it is today, is a bit
                > > more period that most believe:

                None of that makes bubble gauze period for Ireland, which is one the
                least likely places in Europe to find cotton. Like I said, use it
                everyone else does, but don't say it's period.

                Ranvaig
              • Betti
                Who in the world said that pink isn t period?! If you dye white fabric red and the color doesn t take right or fades you get pink. It might not have been
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 4 8:20 PM
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                  Who in the world said that pink isn't period?! If you dye white fabric red and the color doesn't take right or fades you get pink. It might not have been called "pink" but it was there.

                  --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Bonnie Booker <Aspasia1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > YES! That's the book I was waiting for. Another SCA myth exposed. (and yes,
                  > pink is period too.) Thanks.
                  >
                • Bonnie Booker
                  That was just the reigning myth back when I joined, until someone found a manuscript with someone wearing pink next to someone wearing red. It has become a
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 5 7:10 AM
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                    That was just the reigning myth back when I joined, until someone found a
                    manuscript with someone wearing pink next to someone wearing red. It has
                    become a running joke since among us old timers. Now we know it wasn't just
                    a faded red, they actually dyed for shades of pink. ;-)


                    >
                    > Who in the world said that pink isn't period?! If you dye white fabric red
                    > and the color doesn't take right or fades you get pink. It might not have
                    > been called "pink" but it was there.
                    >

                    --
                    *Maitresse Aspasia *


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Catherine M Wagner
                    In regards to the Cotton as Period debate, I would like to respectfully aim your attention to the following essay: http://des.kyhm.com/cotton Technically, at
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 5 11:05 AM
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                      In regards to the "Cotton as Period" debate, I would like to
                      respectfully aim your attention to the following essay:
                      http://des.kyhm.com/cotton

                      Technically, at least according to this essay (and those who are far
                      more experienced in the SCA, and in the clothing arts, than I can be the
                      judge of the thoroughness or lack thereof of the author's research),
                      cotton - even cheap cotton - can be period....but ONLY dependent upon
                      the period of your particular persona.

                      For example, my persona is of the early 1500s, is a fairly
                      comfortably-well off widow of a Guildmaster with blood ties to minor
                      nobility. According to this essay, as someone of the upper middle class
                      she might well have had access to both the cheaper cotton of southern
                      Germany, and the more expensive cotton of Italy through her fellow
                      merchanting contacts.

                      However, I see no place in this essay that means it was easy to get in
                      places like England, the Scandinavian countries, or Russia (although I
                      would think with the Mongols so close that there might be some merchant
                      interaction there, but that is speculation) - which may explain why you
                      only hear of cotton being rare in such places. Therefore for someone of
                      a different area than I, or an earlier period persona would not have
                      cotton as an option.

                      As I do not have the skill nor the experience to verify this Lady
                      Desamona Villani's research, I would respectfully request that someone
                      with that experience and skill can verify this for me.

                      Frankly, I find linen to be uncomfortable at best, and frankly
                      unbreathable and disappointing at worst. I seem to have great luck
                      finding pure 100% cotton fabric that is both breathable and comfortable
                      (as well as more affordable than most linens). But that may be my own
                      personal luck - YMMV. I know that there are others that feel that linen
                      "flows" better and "molds to your body" better - but I seem to have the
                      opposite experience.

                      Lady Adelheide von Campe
                      (Cat Wagner)
                    • Charles
                      ThHere was and SCA myth you couldn t use the color pink. I believe it is due to the fact that the word pink , meaning the color, was either very late period
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 5 4:23 PM
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                        ThHere was and SCA myth you couldn't use the color pink. I believe it is due to the fact that the word "pink", meaning the color, was either very late period or just post period. Prior to that, they used the word "flesh" (in the sense of meat, not skintone) and "carnation". Though these words probably include colors we would think were darker than pink.

                        Rashid
                        --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Betti" <ladyoftheoldways@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Who in the world said that pink isn't period?! If you dye white fabric red and the color doesn't take right or fades you get pink. It might not have been called "pink" but it was there.
                        >
                      • Vicky Eisenstadt
                        About a million years ago, in an old TI, there was a great article from an artisan (I think from the Middle), who researched this and even went to Italy to get
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 6 4:41 AM
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                          About a million years ago, in an old TI, there was a great article from an
                          artisan (I think from the Middle), who researched this and even went to
                          Italy to get seeds/cuttings of a plant that she could grow, to use for dye,
                          that would result in a VERY pink color....

                          Does anyone else remember this?

                          Alysoun

                          On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 7:23 PM, Charles <unclrashid@...> wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > ThHere was and SCA myth you couldn't use the color pink. I believe it is
                          > due to the fact that the word "pink", meaning the color, was either very
                          > late period or just post period. Prior to that, they used the word "flesh"
                          > (in the sense of meat, not skintone) and "carnation". Though these words
                          > probably include colors we would think were darker than pink.
                          >
                          > Rashid
                          > --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Betti" <ladyoftheoldways@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Who in the world said that pink isn't period?! If you dye white fabric
                          > red and the color doesn't take right or fades you get pink. It might not
                          > have been called "pink" but it was there.
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          "Courage is the virtue of deeds... courtesy is the virtue of language."
                          Baron Giovanni di Fiamma


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                        • SleepyUnicorn@roadrunner.com
                          I do! If we are thinking of the same article, 20 years ago or so. I remember being very impressed that it only grew in swampy conditions, AND you had to get
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 6 2:26 PM
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                            I do! If we are thinking of the same article, 20 years ago or so. I remember being very impressed that it only grew in swampy conditions, AND you had to get it at just the right moment of the season, to get the exact pink they used in some paintings.

                            ---- Vicky Eisenstadt <alysounJ@...> wrote:
                            > About a million years ago, in an old TI, there was a great article from an
                            > artisan (I think from the Middle), who researched this and even went to
                            > Italy to get seeds/cuttings of a plant that she could grow, to use for dye,
                            > that would result in a VERY pink color....
                            >
                            > Does anyone else remember this?
                            >
                            > Alysoun

                            >
                          • Wanda Pease
                            ... The statement was made when the SCA still had the new car smell, the person doing so has taken it back so many times she doesn t bother to any longer. We
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 17 3:10 PM
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                              On 4/5/2011 7:10 AM, Bonnie Booker wrote:
                              > That was just the reigning myth back when I joined, until someone found a
                              > manuscript with someone wearing pink next to someone wearing red. It has
                              > become a running joke since among us old timers. Now we know it wasn't just
                              > a faded red, they actually dyed for shades of pink. ;-)
                              >
                              >
                              >> Who in the world said that pink isn't period?! If you dye white fabric red
                              >> and the color doesn't take right or fades you get pink. It might not have
                              >> been called "pink" but it was there.
                              >>
                              The statement was made when the SCA still had the new car smell, the
                              person doing so has taken it back so many times she doesn't bother to
                              any longer. We LEARN in this organization and one of the things we
                              learn is that a mis-statement lasts forever and a correction dies at
                              birth! It all happened probably before you were born and comes around
                              as often as "medieval people used tons of spices to cover the taste of
                              rotten meat" regardless of the fact that the cost of the spices would
                              have been hundreds of times the cost of the lousy meat in the first place!

                              Colorfast pink (or reds) can be hard to dye which is why they were
                              precious and expensive. Not impossible, but expensive. Try leaving
                              your favorite red period dyed outfit on the lawn to dry as they might
                              have done and see what happens (been there, done that. Thanked the
                              powers of dye work it was a piece of experimental swatch).

                              Regina
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