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Punchneed le work

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  • Nadine
    HELP, since everyone in my village uses a Viking apron dress. I wonder if I could add punch needle around the edges? Thanks in advance Nadine Columbia Gorge
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 10, 2008
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      HELP, since everyone in my village uses a Viking apron dress. I wonder
      if I could add punch needle around the edges?

      Thanks in advance
      Nadine
      Columbia Gorge
    • quokkaqueen
      Hi Nadine, If I m understanding what punch-needle embroidery is, then it s like the diagram in these instructions:
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 10, 2008
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        Hi Nadine,

        If I'm understanding what punch-needle embroidery is, then it's like
        the diagram in these instructions:
        http://reviews.ebay.com.au/Basic-Instructions-for-Punch-Needle-Embroidery_W0QQugidZ10000000001355678
        Where you have one side with flat, solid stitches, and the other is
        loopy, correct?

        Firstly, I'm pretty sure punch-needle embroidery wasn't done by
        Viking-age women. ("Needlework Through History" by Catherine Amoroso
        Leslie mentions medieval use, but gives no real examples or firm dates
        that I would trust. See: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=GezzyLFNSgMC)

        With that said, there are certainly extant embroideries that would
        look like the back of a punchneedle piece. A filling stitch used on
        embroideries like the Bayeux tapestry, called 'laid and couched' work
        looks (to me at least) similar.
        See:
        http://www.sca.org.au/broiderers/newsletters/maycoronet99.htm#couching

        As for the loopy look on the front of a punchneedle embroidery, if you
        like that sort of loopy appearance, the closest thing I can think of
        is chain stitch, like from the Mammen textiles, or a silk pouch from
        York. (see: http://www.jomsb.org/Sunnifa/embroidery/embroidery.htm)

        Another 'loopy' embroidery stitch is blanket stitch, like that found
        on the Thorsbjerg tunic, but that's really a bit too early to be
        considered a Viking-age embroidery stitch. But, thankfully there is
        also some blanket-stitched textiles found from London.
        http://www.macdas.org/DAtunicpattern.pdf

        So, in short, punchneedle work is unlikely to be a type of embroidery
        or decoration used in the Viking age, but there are alternatives that
        look sort of similar.

        As for if, what and where you would be embroidering an apron dress, is
        another issue entirely, since off the top of my head the only
        embroidered decoration I can think of on an apron dress layer is
        appliqued braid covering a dart, and the hem was finished with
        herringbone stitch.
        (See:
        http://homepage.ntlworld.com/shelagh.lewins/shelagh/viking_textiles/hedeby_apron/hedeby_apron.htm)

        I hope tis information helps, if you have any more questions may I
        recommend the Norsefolk_2 Yahoo Group. At the very least their
        archives would have plenty of information about decorating apron dresses.

        Kind regards,
        ~Asfridhr
        --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Nadine" <bdmaja@...> wrote:
        >
        > HELP, since everyone in my village uses a Viking apron dress. I wonder
        > if I could add punch needle around the edges?
        >
        > Thanks in advance
        > Nadine
        > Columbia Gorge
        >
      • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        ... Not if your goal is to produce a historically plausible garment. The punch needle was invented by a man named Ebenezer Ross in the 1880s. . .almost a
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 11, 2008
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          Nadine wrote:
          > . . .everyone in my village uses a Viking apron dress. I wonder if I
          > could add punch needle around the edges?

          Not if your goal is to produce a historically plausible garment. The
          punch needle was invented by a man named Ebenezer Ross in the 1880s. .
          .almost a thousand years after the Viking Age.

          If you'd like to embroider your apron-dress in a manner consistent with
          the period it represents, I recommend reading Mistress Þóra
          Sharptooth's "Viking Embroidery Stitches and Motifs"
          <http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/vikembroid.html> and "Anglo-Saxon
          and Viking Works of the Needle: Some Artistic Currents in
          Cross-Cultural Exchange"
          <http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/asvembroid.html>. They've got
          bibliographies that will aid in further research, should you need it.

          The Historic Needlework Resources website
          <http://medieval.webcon.net.au/> also offers some information on
          embroidery from your period that you might find helpful.


          Coblaith Mhuimhneach
          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          Kingdom of Ansteorra
          <mailto:Coblaith@...>
        • Nadine
          Thank you MyLady, The embroidery information is just what is needed. My daughter has some sweaters from Dale of Norway. And I just love the work around the
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 11, 2008
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            Thank you MyLady,

            The embroidery information is just what is needed. My daughter has some
            sweaters from Dale of Norway. And I just love the work around the
            collars, that were the punch needle work came into thought.

            Maja
            Villager of Vindrbek
            Columbia Gorge
          • Nadine
            Thank you so very much Asfridhr for all the information. Yes, this is the punch needle I was talking about. Now that I know I will not use it. I am joining the
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 11, 2008
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              Thank you so very much Asfridhr for all the information. Yes, this is
              the punch needle I was talking about. Now that I know I will not use
              it. I am joining the Norse group. the "chain stitch" you are talking
              about is called "tambour work" I know that work and you can see it on
              you tube.
              Again thank you so very much,
              Nadine
            • borderlands15213
              ... That doesn t seem likely. The chain stitch you d see in period would have been done with needles making a chain stitch. Both tambour and
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 12, 2008
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                --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Nadine" <bdmaja@...> wrote:
                <<<snip>>> the "chain stitch" you are talking
                > about is called "tambour work" I know that work and you can see it on
                > you tube.
                <<<snip>>>

                That doesn't seem likely. The chain stitch you'd see in period would
                have been done with needles making a chain stitch.
                Both tambour and needle-made chain stitch appear identical at a
                glance, but in fact are not.
                Tambour work employs a drum head-looking frame (hence "tambor" or
                "tambour," meaning drum) secured to a table or other stand (to leave
                both of the needleworker's hands free) and a metal hook embedded in a
                wooden handle, which is what I have long understood tambour work to
                be. Tambour work *does* make a chain stitch on the surface of the
                fabric, but achieves that end with a different technique:
                In executing tambour work, the needleworker has both hands free; the
                hand on the upper surface of the work manages the hook; the hand below
                the work loops the thread or yard onto the hook so the loop made below
                the surface can be pulled to the surface.
                In needle-worked chain stitch, which may also employ a frame which
                leaves both of the needleworker's hands free, the loop is created on
                the surface as the needle goes downward, and is caught when the point
                of the needle re-emerges on the surface.
                The back of tambour work shows continuous stitches, much like the
                wrong side of a lock-stitched machine sewn seam does, or, a better
                example, those chain-stitched closures on big bags of pet food or
                produce such as onions, potatoes, or oranges.
                Needle-made chain stitch has separate stitches making a 'broken' line
                on the back.

                All of this having been said, I'm not an expert in matters
                Norse/Viking. Does anyone have actual documentation for Vikings
                having learned and having employed *tambour* technique, specifically?

                Yseult the Gentle
              • Heather/Margaret
                All of this having been said, I m not an expert in matters Norse/Viking. Does anyone have actual documentation for Vikings having learned and having employed
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 12, 2008
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                  "All of this having been said, I'm not an expert in matters
                  Norse/Viking. Does anyone have actual documentation for Vikings
                  having learned and having employed *tambour* technique, specifically?

                  "Yseult the Gentle"

                  No. Grave finds do not include the tools for other embroidery work using
                  such tools. So far as grave finds and other records indicate, it was
                  needle and thread. I'm no expert, but I don't know that frames were used
                  then. I can't remember off the top of my head.

                  I'm afraid the only nifty thing that the Norse came up with that even
                  comes close to embroidery, being a fiber art, is the warp-weighted loom
                  and naalbinding.

                  Nadine I would suggest using a simple needle and thread for authenticity
                  and also for efficiency of thread use. A handsewn chain stitch takes a
                  bit less thread than either tambour or punch needle. If your hands won't
                  tolerate the work, may I suggest an idea that predates the Norse: trade
                  and barter?

                  Margaret Northwode
                • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                  Nadine asked about using punch needle embroidery on a Norse apron dress. Asfridhr recommended several alternatives that would be more authentic to the period,
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 12, 2008
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                    Nadine asked about using punch needle embroidery on a Norse apron
                    dress. Asfridhr recommended several alternatives that would be more
                    authentic to the period, among them chain stitching.

                    Nadine commented,
                    > the "chain stitch" you are talking about is called "tambour work"

                    No, the "chain stitch" Asfridhr is talking about is chain stitch. It
                    has been in use at least since the 7th century
                    <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6948/bathilde.html>, and
                    requires no equipment but a needle and thread. It's just about the
                    simplest embroidery stitch there is; I've taught it to 5-year-olds at
                    events.

                    There are two ways to do the stitch--the rocking method and the
                    stabbing method. The STITCH with the Embroiderers' Guild site has
                    instructions for the former
                    <http://embroiderersguild.com/stitch/stitches/chain.html> and the Coats
                    Crafts site for the latter
                    <http://www.coatscrafts.co.uk/Crafts/Needlecrafts/Howtos/
                    chain+stitch.htm>. I find rocking works better with work in the hand
                    (which is probably how a Norsewoman of the Viking Age would've done it)
                    and stabbing works better if the fabric is stretched on a frame.


                    Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                    Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                    Kingdom of Ansteorra
                    <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                  • Ciorstan
                    I will concur with Margaret-- from what I ve read over the last, um, thirty years, tambour work (as defined by its distinctive wrong side) didn t appear in
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 12, 2008
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                      I will concur with Margaret-- from what I've read over the last, um,
                      thirty years, tambour work (as defined by its distinctive wrong side)
                      didn't appear in Western Europe until the very late 16th century and
                      didn't hit its heyday until the 19th.

                      ciorstan

                      On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Heather/Margaret
                      <margaret.northwode@...> wrote:

                      > No. Grave finds do not include the tools for other embroidery work using
                      > such tools. So far as grave finds and other records indicate, it was
                      > needle and thread. I'm no expert, but I don't know that frames were used
                      > then. I can't remember off the top of my head.
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