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Re: [SCA-Archery] Why six arrows?

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  • Carolus Eulenhorst
    I don t have an answer to this but I do know that it dates from at least the early 19th century. The York and other rounds used it. Perhaps Lord Alan
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 1, 2002
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      I don't have an answer to this but I do know that it dates from at least
      the early 19th century. The York and other rounds used it. Perhaps Lord
      Alan Bluehood can shed some light on this from his researches.

      An while I'm bringing up his name, Alan Received his AoA at Caid's
      Queen's Champion Archery Championship after 25 years in the Society. He
      has served us well in many capacities and deserves hearty
      congratulations.

      In service to the dream
      Carolus von Eulenhorst
      eulenhorst@...

      On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 20:55:28 -0400 "Chad and Erin Wilson"
      <chaderin@...> writes:
      > In the Midrealm Royal Round, we shoot 6 arrows to and end. Many
      > things in
      > archery contests are done in 6's. Is there a historical precedence
      > for this or
      > just an SCA convention handed down from generation to generation?
      >
      > -Caedmon

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    • jameswolfden
      ... Many things in ... precedence for this or ... generation? ... The York Round is six arrows to an end according to the documentation I have seen from the
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 1, 2002
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        --- In SCA-Archery@y..., "Chad and Erin Wilson" <chaderin@e...>
        wrote:
        > In the Midrealm Royal Round, we shoot 6 arrows to and end.
        Many things in
        > archery contests are done in 6's. Is there a historical
        precedence for this or
        > just an SCA convention handed down from generation to
        generation?
        >
        > -Caedmon

        The York Round is six arrows to an end according to the
        documentation I have seen from the 1800s. The York goes back
        further than that of course so I think that the six arrows per end
        come from the formalization of archery as a sport in England.
        Somebody with a copy of toxophilus can comment whether that
        covered archery competions. I understand that the term end
        refers to have butts at each end of the target range.

        James Wolfden
      • Guy Taylor
        One of the highpoints of my day at the event yesterday was seeing Alan get called up the aisle. In the times that I ve dealt with Alan Bluehood he s always
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 1, 2002
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          One of the highpoints of my day at the event yesterday was seeing Alan get
          called up the aisle. In the times that I've dealt with Alan Bluehood he's
          always been friendly, helpful, and a pleasure to be around; a truly fine
          example for me to strive for.
          I congratulate him on both his devotion and the recognition of it thereof.

          Taillear


          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Carolus Eulenhorst [mailto:eulenhorst@...]
          > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:06 AM
          > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Why six arrows?
          >
          >
          > I don't have an answer to this but I do know that it dates from at least
          > the early 19th century. The York and other rounds used it. Perhaps Lord
          > Alan Bluehood can shed some light on this from his researches.
          >
          > An while I'm bringing up his name, Alan Received his AoA at Caid's
          > Queen's Champion Archery Championship after 25 years in the Society. He
          > has served us well in many capacities and deserves hearty
          > congratulations.
          >
          > In service to the dream
          > Carolus von Eulenhorst
          > eulenhorst@...
        • Jack Bradley
          I always thought it was one arrow for each toe on your foot Ragnar
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 1, 2002
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            I always thought it was one arrow for each toe on your foot
            Ragnar
          • Chad and Erin Wilson
            From: Jack Bradley ... I thought that at first, Ragnar, but then I realized that I have never met a 6-toed archer. -Caedmon
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 1, 2002
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              From: "Jack Bradley" <ragnar@...>
              > I always thought it was one arrow for each toe on your foot

              I thought that at first, Ragnar, but then I realized that I have never met a
              6-toed archer.

              -Caedmon
            • Bruce R. Gordon
              Greetings erm... He only now is getting an AoA after 25 years of service?!? This is one of those interkingdom anthropology moments, isn t it... Bemusedly;
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 1, 2002
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                Greetings
                erm... He only now is getting an AoA after 25 years of service?!? This is
                one of those interkingdom anthropology moments, isn't it...

                Bemusedly;
                Nigel (Midrealm)

                Carolus Eulenhorst wrote:

                > I don't have an answer to this but I do know that it dates from at least
                > the early 19th century. The York and other rounds used it. Perhaps Lord
                > Alan Bluehood can shed some light on this from his researches.
                >
                > An while I'm bringing up his name, Alan Received his AoA at Caid's
                > Queen's Champion Archery Championship after 25 years in the Society. He
                > has served us well in many capacities and deserves hearty
                > congratulations.
                >
                > In service to the dream
                > Carolus von Eulenhorst
                > eulenhorst@...
                >
                > On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 20:55:28 -0400 "Chad and Erin Wilson"
                > <chaderin@...> writes:
                >
                >> In the Midrealm Royal Round, we shoot 6 arrows to and end. Many
                >> things in
                >> archery contests are done in 6's. Is there a historical precedence
                >> for this or
                >> just an SCA convention handed down from generation to generation?
                >>
                >> -Caedmon
                >
                >
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              • abluehood
                The number six applied to arrows seems to be rooted in its association with a dozen. Just like eggs, arrows are traditionally sold in dozens, and IIRC they
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 1, 2002
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                  The number six applied to arrows seems to be rooted in its
                  association with a "dozen." Just like eggs, arrows are traditionally
                  sold in dozens, and IIRC they were ordered and inventoried in dozens
                  as far back as the hundred year's war. (I apologize to the Scottish
                  among us in advance for the next statement.) There's the old saying
                  of English archers that dates back to about the battle of
                  Bannockburn: (or was it another battle?) "every English archer
                  carries two dozen Scots under his belt." This would indicate to me
                  that archers counted their arrows by the dozen back then.

                  Target shooting with a half dozen arrows at a time would keep the
                  rest of an archer's dozen in reserve in case of loss or breakage. It
                  certainly dates from the time of Prince's Reckoning, about 1787.
                  It's my opinion that Prince's Reckoning is much older than that date
                  and the Prince of Wales simply gave his royal approval to a already
                  established system of rounds, ends and scoring.

                  The word "end" does come from having targets setup on both ends of
                  the field. It would save a lot of walking to be able to retrive
                  arrows and shoot almost immediately without going all the way back to
                  the original shooting line. It would be a little difficult on the
                  spectators and there might be some safety issues.

                  And BTW, I don't think Ascham ever mentioned any specific archery
                  rounds or scoring menthods. It would have made research so much
                  simpler if he did.

                  Also BTW, I see my AoA has become a subject on this list. I'd like
                  to thank everyone for their kind thoughts and congratulations. Now
                  let me make it known that I just couldn't hide from their Majesties
                  any longer, so now I have to get used to this "Lord" thing. But it
                  seems kind of highfalutin for a old forest outlaw...

                  In service...
                  -Allan Bluehood-

                  --- In SCA-Archery@y..., Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@j...> wrote:
                  > I don't have an answer to this but I do know that it dates from at
                  least
                  > the early 19th century. The York and other rounds used it.
                  Perhaps Lord
                  > Alan Bluehood can shed some light on this from his researches.
                  >
                  > An while I'm bringing up his name, Alan Received his AoA at Caid's
                  > Queen's Champion Archery Championship after 25 years in the
                  Society. He
                  > has served us well in many capacities and deserves hearty
                  > congratulations.
                  >
                  > In service to the dream
                  > Carolus von Eulenhorst
                  > eulenhorst@j...
                  >
                • Mike O'Toole
                  ... I don t mean to contradict you but the partial equipment list I have for the Mary Rose (from Margaret Rule s The Mary Rose) list arrows as in sheaves (I
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 2, 2002
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                    abluehood wrote:

                    > The number six applied to arrows seems to be rooted in its
                    > association with a "dozen." Just like eggs, arrows are traditionally
                    > sold in dozens, and IIRC they were ordered and inventoried in dozens
                    > as far back as the hundred year's war. (I apologize to the Scottish
                    > among us in advance for the next statement.) There's the old saying
                    > of English archers that dates back to about the battle of
                    > Bannockburn: (or was it another battle?) "every English archer
                    > carries two dozen Scots under his belt." This would indicate to me
                    > that archers counted their arrows by the dozen back then...


                    I don't mean to contradict you but the partial equipment list I have for
                    the Mary Rose (from Margaret Rule's The Mary Rose) list arrows as in
                    sheaves (I count 24 per sheaf from the holes in the leather spacers used
                    to protect the feathers)

                    As well from the English statutes on archery practice I believe only
                    require every freeman (or yeoman) to own 2 or three arrows with which to
                    practice.


                    of course it being about 2 minutes to five in the morning may have
                    fogged my brain a little! :-)

                    Michael O'Byrne


                    --
                    mike.otoole@...
                    ---
                    "An archer does not aim, he kills."
                    Bernard Cornwell, Harlequin
                  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                    Now ... Two Score and Five is a long time to wait for a pardon, even for a forest outlaw. Congratulations. James Cunningham
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 2, 2002
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                      Now
                      > let me make it known that I just couldn't hide from their Majesties
                      > any longer, so now I have to get used to this "Lord" thing. But it
                      > seems kind of highfalutin for a old forest outlaw...
                      >
                      > In service...
                      > -Allan Bluehood-

                      Two Score and Five is a long time to wait for a pardon, even for a forest
                      outlaw. Congratulations.

                      James Cunningham
                    • abluehood
                      Please, by all means contradict me when I get my facts wrong. I enjoy being able to expand my knowledge base. My opinion, however, is something different.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 2, 2002
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                        Please, by all means contradict me when I get my facts wrong. I
                        enjoy being able to expand my knowledge base. My opinion, however,
                        is something different. It just seems to me that a sheaf of 24 would
                        still indicate counting by the dozen, in this case two dozen. And
                        also remember that I said it was traditional. In medieval England
                        tradition did not have the weight of law.

                        I'd like to point out that practice arrows and issue grade war
                        arrows were likely very different. Practice arrows often had a point
                        more like a target point rather than the broadhead (for hunting) or
                        bodkin war points. IIRC (okay, correct me if I'm wrong again) it was
                        spelled out in law that anyone living in the King's forests were to
                        have blunt arrows for practice, so they couldn't hunt the King's deer.
                        Thus have I seen...
                        -Allan Bluehood-


                        --- In SCA-Archery@y..., Mike O'Toole <mike.otoole@s...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I don't mean to contradict you but the partial equipment list I
                        have for
                        > the Mary Rose (from Margaret Rule's The Mary Rose) list arrows as
                        in
                        > sheaves (I count 24 per sheaf from the holes in the leather spacers
                        used
                        > to protect the feathers)
                        >
                        > As well from the English statutes on archery practice I believe
                        only
                        > require every freeman (or yeoman) to own 2 or three arrows with
                        which to
                        > practice.
                        >
                        >
                        > of course it being about 2 minutes to five in the morning may have
                        > fogged my brain a little! :-)
                        >
                        > Michael O'Byrne
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > mike.otoole@s...
                        > ---
                        > "An archer does not aim, he kills."
                        > Bernard Cornwell, Harlequin
                      • conradvonzollern
                        ... Two Score and Five is a long time to wait for a pardon, even for a forest outlaw. Congratulations. James Cunningham
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 2, 2002
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                          --- In SCA-Archery@y..., "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@f...> wrote:

                          "Two Score and Five is a long time to wait for a pardon, even for a
                          forest outlaw. Congratulations.

                          James Cunningham"

                          **********************************************************************
                          James,

                          Two score and five is a bit longer than 25 years... Which is plenty
                          long enough to wait for anything, including true love.

                          Think about it... or have Ragnar count appendages... 6 toes times how
                          many feet?

                          ;0)

                          Conrad von Zollern
                        • Jack Bradley
                          Hummm Two Score and Five One Two Three More Much more aaaaa 6 no problem R
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 2, 2002
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                            Hummm Two Score and Five
                            One Two Three More Much more aaaaa 6 no problem
                            R

                            conradvonzollern wrote:

                            > --- In SCA-Archery@y..., "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@f...> wrote:
                            >
                            > "Two Score and Five is a long time to wait for a pardon, even for a
                            > forest outlaw. Congratulations.
                            >
                            > James Cunningham"
                            >
                            > **********************************************************************
                            > James,
                            >
                            > Two score and five is a bit longer than 25 years... Which is plenty
                            > long enough to wait for anything, including true love.
                            >
                            > Think about it... or have Ragnar count appendages... 6 toes times how
                            > many feet?
                            >
                            > ;0)
                            >
                            > Conrad von Zollern
                            >
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                          • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                            OK OK a score and five.. Two Score and five sounded much more poetic. James Cunningham
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 2, 2002
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                              OK>OK a score and five.."Two Score and five" sounded much more poetic.

                              James Cunningham
                              > Hummm Two Score and Five
                              > One Two Three More Much more aaaaa 6 no problem
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