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Why six arrows?

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  • Chad and Erin Wilson
    In the Midrealm Royal Round, we shoot 6 arrows to and end. Many things in archery contests are done in 6 s. Is there a historical precedence for this or just
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 30, 2002
      In the Midrealm Royal Round, we shoot 6 arrows to and end. Many things in
      archery contests are done in 6's. Is there a historical precedence for this or
      just an SCA convention handed down from generation to generation?

      -Caedmon
    • Carolus Eulenhorst
      I don t have an answer to this but I do know that it dates from at least the early 19th century. The York and other rounds used it. Perhaps Lord Alan
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 1 11:05 AM
        I don't have an answer to this but I do know that it dates from at least
        the early 19th century. The York and other rounds used it. Perhaps Lord
        Alan Bluehood can shed some light on this from his researches.

        An while I'm bringing up his name, Alan Received his AoA at Caid's
        Queen's Champion Archery Championship after 25 years in the Society. He
        has served us well in many capacities and deserves hearty
        congratulations.

        In service to the dream
        Carolus von Eulenhorst
        eulenhorst@...

        On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 20:55:28 -0400 "Chad and Erin Wilson"
        <chaderin@...> writes:
        > In the Midrealm Royal Round, we shoot 6 arrows to and end. Many
        > things in
        > archery contests are done in 6's. Is there a historical precedence
        > for this or
        > just an SCA convention handed down from generation to generation?
        >
        > -Caedmon

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      • jameswolfden
        ... Many things in ... precedence for this or ... generation? ... The York Round is six arrows to an end according to the documentation I have seen from the
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 1 11:08 AM
          --- In SCA-Archery@y..., "Chad and Erin Wilson" <chaderin@e...>
          wrote:
          > In the Midrealm Royal Round, we shoot 6 arrows to and end.
          Many things in
          > archery contests are done in 6's. Is there a historical
          precedence for this or
          > just an SCA convention handed down from generation to
          generation?
          >
          > -Caedmon

          The York Round is six arrows to an end according to the
          documentation I have seen from the 1800s. The York goes back
          further than that of course so I think that the six arrows per end
          come from the formalization of archery as a sport in England.
          Somebody with a copy of toxophilus can comment whether that
          covered archery competions. I understand that the term end
          refers to have butts at each end of the target range.

          James Wolfden
        • Guy Taylor
          One of the highpoints of my day at the event yesterday was seeing Alan get called up the aisle. In the times that I ve dealt with Alan Bluehood he s always
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 1 1:19 PM
            One of the highpoints of my day at the event yesterday was seeing Alan get
            called up the aisle. In the times that I've dealt with Alan Bluehood he's
            always been friendly, helpful, and a pleasure to be around; a truly fine
            example for me to strive for.
            I congratulate him on both his devotion and the recognition of it thereof.

            Taillear


            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Carolus Eulenhorst [mailto:eulenhorst@...]
            > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:06 AM
            > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Why six arrows?
            >
            >
            > I don't have an answer to this but I do know that it dates from at least
            > the early 19th century. The York and other rounds used it. Perhaps Lord
            > Alan Bluehood can shed some light on this from his researches.
            >
            > An while I'm bringing up his name, Alan Received his AoA at Caid's
            > Queen's Champion Archery Championship after 25 years in the Society. He
            > has served us well in many capacities and deserves hearty
            > congratulations.
            >
            > In service to the dream
            > Carolus von Eulenhorst
            > eulenhorst@...
          • Jack Bradley
            I always thought it was one arrow for each toe on your foot Ragnar
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 1 1:30 PM
              I always thought it was one arrow for each toe on your foot
              Ragnar
            • Chad and Erin Wilson
              From: Jack Bradley ... I thought that at first, Ragnar, but then I realized that I have never met a 6-toed archer. -Caedmon
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 1 2:15 PM
                From: "Jack Bradley" <ragnar@...>
                > I always thought it was one arrow for each toe on your foot

                I thought that at first, Ragnar, but then I realized that I have never met a
                6-toed archer.

                -Caedmon
              • Bruce R. Gordon
                Greetings erm... He only now is getting an AoA after 25 years of service?!? This is one of those interkingdom anthropology moments, isn t it... Bemusedly;
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 1 5:26 PM
                  Greetings
                  erm... He only now is getting an AoA after 25 years of service?!? This is
                  one of those interkingdom anthropology moments, isn't it...

                  Bemusedly;
                  Nigel (Midrealm)

                  Carolus Eulenhorst wrote:

                  > I don't have an answer to this but I do know that it dates from at least
                  > the early 19th century. The York and other rounds used it. Perhaps Lord
                  > Alan Bluehood can shed some light on this from his researches.
                  >
                  > An while I'm bringing up his name, Alan Received his AoA at Caid's
                  > Queen's Champion Archery Championship after 25 years in the Society. He
                  > has served us well in many capacities and deserves hearty
                  > congratulations.
                  >
                  > In service to the dream
                  > Carolus von Eulenhorst
                  > eulenhorst@...
                  >
                  > On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 20:55:28 -0400 "Chad and Erin Wilson"
                  > <chaderin@...> writes:
                  >
                  >> In the Midrealm Royal Round, we shoot 6 arrows to and end. Many
                  >> things in
                  >> archery contests are done in 6's. Is there a historical precedence
                  >> for this or
                  >> just an SCA convention handed down from generation to generation?
                  >>
                  >> -Caedmon
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________________________________________
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                • abluehood
                  The number six applied to arrows seems to be rooted in its association with a dozen. Just like eggs, arrows are traditionally sold in dozens, and IIRC they
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 1 7:32 PM
                    The number six applied to arrows seems to be rooted in its
                    association with a "dozen." Just like eggs, arrows are traditionally
                    sold in dozens, and IIRC they were ordered and inventoried in dozens
                    as far back as the hundred year's war. (I apologize to the Scottish
                    among us in advance for the next statement.) There's the old saying
                    of English archers that dates back to about the battle of
                    Bannockburn: (or was it another battle?) "every English archer
                    carries two dozen Scots under his belt." This would indicate to me
                    that archers counted their arrows by the dozen back then.

                    Target shooting with a half dozen arrows at a time would keep the
                    rest of an archer's dozen in reserve in case of loss or breakage. It
                    certainly dates from the time of Prince's Reckoning, about 1787.
                    It's my opinion that Prince's Reckoning is much older than that date
                    and the Prince of Wales simply gave his royal approval to a already
                    established system of rounds, ends and scoring.

                    The word "end" does come from having targets setup on both ends of
                    the field. It would save a lot of walking to be able to retrive
                    arrows and shoot almost immediately without going all the way back to
                    the original shooting line. It would be a little difficult on the
                    spectators and there might be some safety issues.

                    And BTW, I don't think Ascham ever mentioned any specific archery
                    rounds or scoring menthods. It would have made research so much
                    simpler if he did.

                    Also BTW, I see my AoA has become a subject on this list. I'd like
                    to thank everyone for their kind thoughts and congratulations. Now
                    let me make it known that I just couldn't hide from their Majesties
                    any longer, so now I have to get used to this "Lord" thing. But it
                    seems kind of highfalutin for a old forest outlaw...

                    In service...
                    -Allan Bluehood-

                    --- In SCA-Archery@y..., Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@j...> wrote:
                    > I don't have an answer to this but I do know that it dates from at
                    least
                    > the early 19th century. The York and other rounds used it.
                    Perhaps Lord
                    > Alan Bluehood can shed some light on this from his researches.
                    >
                    > An while I'm bringing up his name, Alan Received his AoA at Caid's
                    > Queen's Champion Archery Championship after 25 years in the
                    Society. He
                    > has served us well in many capacities and deserves hearty
                    > congratulations.
                    >
                    > In service to the dream
                    > Carolus von Eulenhorst
                    > eulenhorst@j...
                    >
                  • Mike O'Toole
                    ... I don t mean to contradict you but the partial equipment list I have for the Mary Rose (from Margaret Rule s The Mary Rose) list arrows as in sheaves (I
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 2 4:05 AM
                      abluehood wrote:

                      > The number six applied to arrows seems to be rooted in its
                      > association with a "dozen." Just like eggs, arrows are traditionally
                      > sold in dozens, and IIRC they were ordered and inventoried in dozens
                      > as far back as the hundred year's war. (I apologize to the Scottish
                      > among us in advance for the next statement.) There's the old saying
                      > of English archers that dates back to about the battle of
                      > Bannockburn: (or was it another battle?) "every English archer
                      > carries two dozen Scots under his belt." This would indicate to me
                      > that archers counted their arrows by the dozen back then...


                      I don't mean to contradict you but the partial equipment list I have for
                      the Mary Rose (from Margaret Rule's The Mary Rose) list arrows as in
                      sheaves (I count 24 per sheaf from the holes in the leather spacers used
                      to protect the feathers)

                      As well from the English statutes on archery practice I believe only
                      require every freeman (or yeoman) to own 2 or three arrows with which to
                      practice.


                      of course it being about 2 minutes to five in the morning may have
                      fogged my brain a little! :-)

                      Michael O'Byrne


                      --
                      mike.otoole@...
                      ---
                      "An archer does not aim, he kills."
                      Bernard Cornwell, Harlequin
                    • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                      Now ... Two Score and Five is a long time to wait for a pardon, even for a forest outlaw. Congratulations. James Cunningham
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 2 6:09 AM
                        Now
                        > let me make it known that I just couldn't hide from their Majesties
                        > any longer, so now I have to get used to this "Lord" thing. But it
                        > seems kind of highfalutin for a old forest outlaw...
                        >
                        > In service...
                        > -Allan Bluehood-

                        Two Score and Five is a long time to wait for a pardon, even for a forest
                        outlaw. Congratulations.

                        James Cunningham
                      • abluehood
                        Please, by all means contradict me when I get my facts wrong. I enjoy being able to expand my knowledge base. My opinion, however, is something different.
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 2 5:35 PM
                          Please, by all means contradict me when I get my facts wrong. I
                          enjoy being able to expand my knowledge base. My opinion, however,
                          is something different. It just seems to me that a sheaf of 24 would
                          still indicate counting by the dozen, in this case two dozen. And
                          also remember that I said it was traditional. In medieval England
                          tradition did not have the weight of law.

                          I'd like to point out that practice arrows and issue grade war
                          arrows were likely very different. Practice arrows often had a point
                          more like a target point rather than the broadhead (for hunting) or
                          bodkin war points. IIRC (okay, correct me if I'm wrong again) it was
                          spelled out in law that anyone living in the King's forests were to
                          have blunt arrows for practice, so they couldn't hunt the King's deer.
                          Thus have I seen...
                          -Allan Bluehood-


                          --- In SCA-Archery@y..., Mike O'Toole <mike.otoole@s...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't mean to contradict you but the partial equipment list I
                          have for
                          > the Mary Rose (from Margaret Rule's The Mary Rose) list arrows as
                          in
                          > sheaves (I count 24 per sheaf from the holes in the leather spacers
                          used
                          > to protect the feathers)
                          >
                          > As well from the English statutes on archery practice I believe
                          only
                          > require every freeman (or yeoman) to own 2 or three arrows with
                          which to
                          > practice.
                          >
                          >
                          > of course it being about 2 minutes to five in the morning may have
                          > fogged my brain a little! :-)
                          >
                          > Michael O'Byrne
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > mike.otoole@s...
                          > ---
                          > "An archer does not aim, he kills."
                          > Bernard Cornwell, Harlequin
                        • conradvonzollern
                          ... Two Score and Five is a long time to wait for a pardon, even for a forest outlaw. Congratulations. James Cunningham
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 2 6:49 PM
                            --- In SCA-Archery@y..., "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@f...> wrote:

                            "Two Score and Five is a long time to wait for a pardon, even for a
                            forest outlaw. Congratulations.

                            James Cunningham"

                            **********************************************************************
                            James,

                            Two score and five is a bit longer than 25 years... Which is plenty
                            long enough to wait for anything, including true love.

                            Think about it... or have Ragnar count appendages... 6 toes times how
                            many feet?

                            ;0)

                            Conrad von Zollern
                          • Jack Bradley
                            Hummm Two Score and Five One Two Three More Much more aaaaa 6 no problem R
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 2 7:40 PM
                              Hummm Two Score and Five
                              One Two Three More Much more aaaaa 6 no problem
                              R

                              conradvonzollern wrote:

                              > --- In SCA-Archery@y..., "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@f...> wrote:
                              >
                              > "Two Score and Five is a long time to wait for a pardon, even for a
                              > forest outlaw. Congratulations.
                              >
                              > James Cunningham"
                              >
                              > **********************************************************************
                              > James,
                              >
                              > Two score and five is a bit longer than 25 years... Which is plenty
                              > long enough to wait for anything, including true love.
                              >
                              > Think about it... or have Ragnar count appendages... 6 toes times how
                              > many feet?
                              >
                              > ;0)
                              >
                              > Conrad von Zollern
                              >
                              > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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                              > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                              >
                              >
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                            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                              OK OK a score and five.. Two Score and five sounded much more poetic. James Cunningham
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 2 8:27 PM
                                OK>OK a score and five.."Two Score and five" sounded much more poetic.

                                James Cunningham
                                > Hummm Two Score and Five
                                > One Two Three More Much more aaaaa 6 no problem
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