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IKAC period division clarification

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  • Evian Blackthorn
    ... and ... and ... No where in the period division rules for IKAC do the words shelf or shelves appear, and the second provision specifically states that
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 28, 2002
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      Siegfried wrote:
      >Makes it period, yes.

      >Makes it legal for the period IKAC, no - As it
      >specially disallows the use of shelves.

      Actually, the period division of IKAC rules state:
      >Modern style recurves or longbows with full or partial
      >center cut risers are not allowed.

      and

      >Period style bows are defined as: Any style of bow that
      >can be documented as used in pre 1600 archery, from
      >Stone age bows to English longbows.

      and

      >Fiberglass may be used as a substitute for horn and or
      >sinew in the construction of period style recurve bows
      >such as Arab, Turkish, Mongol, etc., but no modern
      >features such as full or partial center cut handles are
      >allowed.

      No where in the period division rules for IKAC do the
      words 'shelf' or 'shelves' appear, and the second provision
      specifically states that if it can be documented as used in
      pre 1600 archery, it can be used. A cork piece under the
      handle wrapping is not a 'full or partial center cut riser'
      nor a 'full or partial center cut handle', which is what is
      specifically prohibited.

      If you can find that cork rest reference in Ascham, could
      you quote it for me, and the list, in a properly done
      citation, Sir Jon?

      YIS
      HL Evian Blackthorn of THE WEB
      http://www.spider-strands.com
    • godwinthearcher
      ... This is why I ask, because the wording is not clear in it s delineation of cut-out riser and rest/shelf. The word shelf is not in the ruling s wording.
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 28, 2002
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        --- In SCA-Archery@y..., John Edgerton <sirjon1@p...> wrote:
        >
        > Siegfried Sebastian Faust wrote:
        >
        > > At 04:02 PM 6/28/2002 -0700, John Edgerton wrote:
        >>>I do not have my copy of Aschem'sToxiphilus at hand. But, I
        >>>think he may have made mention of the use a piece of cork under the
        >>>wrapping for the hand grip as a rest for the arrow. I do not think
        >>>he approved of its use. But, if so, that would make such in period.
        >>
        >> Makes it period, yes.
        >>
        >> Makes it legal for the period IKAC, no - As it specially disallows
        >> the use of shelves.
        >>

        This is why I ask, because the wording is not clear in it's
        delineation of cut-out riser and rest/shelf. The word "shelf" is not
        in the ruling's wording. However I do know that a "shelf" and a "rest"
        are the same thing: a place for the arrow to sit.

        The rules state:
        "....Modern style recurves or longbows with full or partial center cut
        risers are not allowed."

        Is this referring to a full center-shot recurve, and/or a longbow with
        a 3/8" shelf built in?

        Next statement:
        "....but no modern features such as full or partial center cut handles
        are allowed..."

        Is this stating that there may be no notch cut into the bow handle, to
        function as an arrow rest?

        Okay, next:
        "...Non period arrow rests are not allowed. Built in full or partial
        windows are not allowed...."

        So to me, all of this says "no notch of any kind in the bow handle". I
        greatly suspect that "period" arrow rest for me (~1250 to 1300) is my
        hand.

        Godwin
      • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
        Greetings, My question has nothing to do with what is actual real world period but rather my question is: Are my bows that have an arrow indicator rest of
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 28, 2002
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          Greetings,
          My question has nothing to do with what is actual "real world"
          period but rather my question is: Are my bows that have an arrow
          indicator rest of about 1/8 inch thich added under the leather grip
          acceptable as SCA period for the purposes of shooting IKAC?
          I have not been able to get a clear answer from the posted rules,
          and I really do want to play by the rules, so this is not a loaded
          question. I really don't know because I was led to believe that the
          rules have changed since I last shot in the Period IKAC (about 5-6 years
          ago).
          I guess the best thing to do is contact Lorenzo. I just thought
          some one here might know off of the top of their heads.

          Please don't argue about it. I'll go and find out.

          Respectfully,
          -Geoffrei


          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
        • archer3@webtv.net
          It has always been my understanding that cut in shelves are not allowed, but that built out rests (semantics) are. With a built out rest one is still shooting
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 28, 2002
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            It has always been my understanding that cut in shelves are not
            allowed, but that built out rests (semantics) are. With a built out rest
            one is still shooting around the bow instead of "through" it.

            Damian >>~~~>
          • latorrej@aol.com
            In a message dated 6/28/2002 7:49:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... I have always taken this statement as a clear reference to flipper rests and other modern
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 28, 2002
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              In a message dated 6/28/2002 7:49:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
              Godwin@... writes:


              > Okay, next:
              > "...Non period arrow rests are not allowed. Built in full or partial
              > windows are not allowed...."
              >
              >

              I have always taken this statement as a clear reference to flipper rests and
              other modern types, not wood, leather etc. wedges added to a symmetrical
              handle section (D section longbow or narrowed handle of a flatbow). But
              clearly Lorenzo's view is what counts here.

              Joseph de la Tour, West Kingdom


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Carolus Eulenhorst
              This makes it pretty clear that your bow is legal as it has a ledge built out from the bow rather than cut in. As was quoted from Ascham, a cork wedge under
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 29, 2002
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                This makes it pretty clear that your bow is legal as it has a ledge built
                out from the bow rather than cut in. As was quoted from Ascham, a cork
                wedge under the grip wrapping is period. And a shelf is not the same
                thing as a rest. The shelf is the bottom of the window cut into the bow
                to enable a straighter shot by the arrow (partial or full center shot).
                Usually a rest is mounted above the shelf and the arrow does not sit on
                the shelf itself.

                In service to the dream
                Carolus von Eulenhorst
                eulenhorst@...

                On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 02:48:16 -0000 "godwinthearcher" <Godwin@...>
                writes:
                > --- In SCA-Archery@y..., John Edgerton <sirjon1@p...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Siegfried Sebastian Faust wrote:
                > >
                > > > At 04:02 PM 6/28/2002 -0700, John Edgerton wrote:
                > >>>I do not have my copy of Aschem'sToxiphilus at hand. But, I
                > >>>think he may have made mention of the use a piece of cork under
                > the
                > >>>wrapping for the hand grip as a rest for the arrow. I do not
                > think
                > >>>he approved of its use. But, if so, that would make such in
                > period.
                > >>
                > >> Makes it period, yes.
                > >>
                > >> Makes it legal for the period IKAC, no - As it specially
                > disallows
                > >> the use of shelves.
                > >>
                >
                > This is why I ask, because the wording is not clear in it's
                > delineation of cut-out riser and rest/shelf. The word "shelf" is not
                >
                > in the ruling's wording. However I do know that a "shelf" and a
                > "rest"
                > are the same thing: a place for the arrow to sit.
                >
                > The rules state:
                > "....Modern style recurves or longbows with full or partial center
                > cut
                > risers are not allowed."
                >
                > Is this referring to a full center-shot recurve, and/or a longbow
                > with
                > a 3/8" shelf built in?
                >
                > Next statement:
                > "....but no modern features such as full or partial center cut
                > handles
                > are allowed..."
                >
                > Is this stating that there may be no notch cut into the bow handle,
                > to
                > function as an arrow rest?
                >
                > Okay, next:
                > "...Non period arrow rests are not allowed. Built in full or partial
                >
                > windows are not allowed...."
                >
                > So to me, all of this says "no notch of any kind in the bow handle".
                > I
                > greatly suspect that "period" arrow rest for me (~1250 to 1300) is
                > my
                > hand.
                >
                > Godwin

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              • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                ... I stand corrected ... I went back and re-read the rules, and it does clearly state a difference. No cut out shelves are allowed, but that doesn t stop a
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 29, 2002
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                  >I do not think the Period IKAC rules disallow the use of such a item. It is
                  >really a rest rather than a shelf. And the rules do not disallow the use of a
                  >shelf, let alone a rest that was used in period. . If I remember correctly
                  >they
                  >do not allow the use full or partial cut raisers. When I wrote the rules,
                  >I knew
                  >of Aschams reference to the cork rest and therefore did not write them to
                  >disallow such use.

                  I stand corrected ... I went back and re-read the rules, and it does
                  clearly state a difference. No 'cut out' shelves are allowed, but that
                  doesn't stop a 'built up' one.

                  Although, on an interesting note ... one could argue that a $40 fiberglass
                  longbow qualify for the period IKAC, because they are of a 'basically'
                  period design, and they don't have a cutout riser, the shelf is 'built on'
                  with the handle.

                  Siegfried

                  ______________________________________________________________________
                  Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust Barony of Highland Foorde
                  Baronial Web Minister http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org
                • godwinthearcher
                  ... You could argue that, but I think the statements of: ...Construction materials should be mainly those that were used in period for the making of that
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 29, 2002
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                    --- In SCA-Archery@y..., Siegfried Sebastian Faust <crossbow@f...>
                    wrote:
                    > I stand corrected ... I went back and re-read the rules, and it does
                    > clearly state a difference. No 'cut out' shelves are allowed, but
                    > that doesn't stop a 'built up' one.
                    >
                    > Although, on an interesting note ... one could argue that a $40
                    > fiberglass longbow qualify for the period IKAC, because they are of
                    > a 'basically' period design, and they don't have a cutout riser, the
                    > shelf is 'built on' with the handle.
                    >
                    > Siegfried
                    >

                    You could argue that, but I think the statements of:

                    "...Construction materials should be mainly those that were used in
                    period for the making of that style of bow..."

                    and

                    "...Fiberglass may be used as a substitute for horn and or sinew in
                    the construction of period style recurve bows such as Arab, Turkish,
                    Mongol, etc., but no modern features such as full or partial center
                    cut handles are allowed. ..."

                    Basically rules that out.
                    My thanks to the list for helping me clarify the shelf/rest thing. I
                    think I'll construct my bow so that the handle wrapping gives me my
                    hand position, and just shoot off my hand, or maybe just a couple of
                    extra wraps of leather would do the trick.

                    Godwin
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