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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Crossbows

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  • Michael Scherrer
    In Missouri, the cross bow is place as a fire arm during the deer hunting season here. Seeing the modern Cross bows, I can understand that. Thomas ...
    Message 1 of 20 , May 1, 2002
      In Missouri, the cross bow is place as a fire arm during the deer hunting
      season here. Seeing the modern Cross bows, I can understand that.
      Thomas

      >From: "Daniel Stratton" <agincort@...>
      >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      >To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Crossbows
      >Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 14:09:37 -0400
      >
      > > Also, has anyone had trouble using a crossbow at a local range or
      >archery
      >club?
      >
      >Here in NE Ohio, our most convienient -membership- range, Wingfoot
      >Bowhunters, bans them for insurance reasons as their corporate sponsor
      >(Goodyear) wrote up their charter that way long ago. We've discussed it
      >with
      >them for event purposes, but they're stuck with it, though they seem as
      >though they would be willing to make the allowance otherwise. The public
      >ranges we use all allow them. Ohio doesn't seem to have a problem with them
      >for hunting season.
      >I have been warned that West Virginia bans them completely, and I think the
      >SCA has a problem, though we may ignore it, at WV events, because of that.
      >Anyone from Aethelmearc?
      >Pennsic (Pennsylvania) hasn't had any problem with crossbows, though I
      >don't
      >know what the rule is that affects hunting there.
      >Ian Gourdon
      >
      >
      >
      >---8<---------------------------------------------
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      >Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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    • John Edgerton
      I will be looking for a period style target crossbow to purchase. Can anyone provide a list of points of things to look for and ask about before buying one?
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 19, 2004
        I will be looking for a period style target crossbow to purchase. Can
        anyone provide a list of points of things to look for and ask about
        before buying one?

        Thanks for any help you can give

        Jon
      • John Edgerton
        In addition to my previous question ..... which period style crossbows and makers would you recommend and why? Jon
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 19, 2004
          In addition to my previous question ..... which period style crossbows
          and makers would you recommend and why?

          Jon
        • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
          ... It depends on what you are wanting out of it: * Period look * Truly Period Design * Accuracy * Speed etc I could go into more details in private if you
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 19, 2004
            At 02:01 PM 1/19/2004, John Edgerton wrote:
            >I will be looking for a period style target crossbow to purchase. Can
            >anyone provide a list of points of things to look for and ask about
            >before buying one?

            It depends on what you are wanting out of it:

            * Period 'look'
            * Truly Period Design
            * Accuracy
            * Speed
            etc

            I could go into more details in private if you wish, but I feel a little
            odd about it, since I do make them for sale :)

            Siegfried



            ___________________________________________________________________________
            THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust http://crossbows.biz/
            Barony of Highland Foorde Baronial Web Minister & Archery Marshal
            Kingdom of Atlantia Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
            http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/ http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
          • Chad and Erin Wilson
            Have in mind what poundage of bow you want. Do you want a light 90# xbow? They can allow you a faster speed round and less stress on the arms over a day of
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 19, 2004
              Have in mind what poundage of bow you want. Do you want a light 90# xbow? They
              can allow you a faster speed round and less stress on the arms over a day of
              shooting. Do you want a 150# xbow? They have excellent accuracy at 40 yards
              and beyond, but can put a strain in elbows and muscles.

              -Caedmon
            • John Edgerton
              There have been questions from other people as well, as to what I am looking for in a crossbow. So ... Roller nut of Delrin, etc with steel insert Roller
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 19, 2004
                There have been questions from other people as well, as to what I am
                looking for in a crossbow. So ...
                Roller nut of Delrin, etc with steel insert
                Roller nut with side plates, not laced in.
                Bow irons and trigger of iron or brass
                Maybe a rear sight
                I am open as to the style and period of the stock
                Steel prod
                125 to 175 pound draw, accuracy at longer range. Giving speed up for
                accuracy. I have no problem cocking 150 lb.
                I want at least a period "look" and as much "true period design" as my
                budget would allow. Budget is about 300. Not looking for carved stock,
                engraved brass, or fancy inlay. Just a plain, well made, accurate
                crossbow.

                Jon


                Siegfried Sebastian Faust wrote:

                >At 02:01 PM 1/19/2004, John Edgerton wrote:
                >
                >>I will be looking for a period style target crossbow to purchase. Can
                >>anyone provide a list of points of things to look for and ask about
                >>before buying one?
                >>
                >
                >It depends on what you are wanting out of it:
                >
                >* Period 'look'
                >* Truly Period Design
                >* Accuracy
                >* Speed
                >etc
                >
                >I could go into more details in private if you wish, but I feel a little
                >odd about it, since I do make them for sale :)
                >
                >Siegfried
                >
                >
                >
                >___________________________________________________________________________
                >THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust http://crossbows.biz/
                >Barony of Highland Foorde Baronial Web Minister & Archery Marshal
                >Kingdom of Atlantia Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                >http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/ http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                >
                >
                >---8<---------------------------------------------
                >Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                >Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                >
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                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
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                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/
                >
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                >
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                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                Some Comments ... ... Ok, question of: Why? Some people think that they can t service a crossbow without removable sideplates. This isn t true (at least, as
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 19, 2004
                  Some Comments ...

                  >Roller nut with side plates, not laced in.

                  Ok, question of: Why?

                  Some people think that they can't service a crossbow without removable
                  sideplates. This isn't true (at least, as long as the crossbow is made
                  correctly).

                  The nut should be able to be rotated back and at a certain position lift
                  out (after cutting the lacing).

                  Those with removable side plates and pins have 2 problems (IMO)
                  A) They are less period in design ... 99% of rolling nut crossbows in
                  period were socket-based laced on ones.
                  B) The main reason for (A), is that they suffer one design flaw ... most of
                  the power of the crossbow is pulling forward on the pin ... putting ALOT of
                  stress on one small point. A socket-rotating rolling nut, puts it's stress
                  on the front wood of the socket, a much larger surface area, and therefore,
                  it doesn't wear out.

                  I should know, I have repaired 3 different 'pinned rolling nut' crossbows
                  because over time the pin would pull forward, either bending or moving
                  through wood, until the crossbow refuses to cock.

                  >Bow irons and trigger of iron or brass

                  I highly reccomend iron there, for stability, strength, and periodness.

                  >Maybe a rear sight

                  I reccomend making your own for this. Make something simple and play and
                  see if you like it, then keep modifying as you see fit. Or you might find
                  that you prefer to not use one.

                  >Steel prod
                  >125 to 175 pound draw, accuracy at longer range. Giving speed up for
                  >accuracy. I have no problem cocking 150 lb.

                  I'd reccomend between 125 and 150 then... above that starts to get rough.

                  Siegfried


                  ___________________________________________________________________________
                  THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust http://crossbows.biz/
                  Barony of Highland Foorde Baronial Web Minister & Archery Marshal
                  Kingdom of Atlantia Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                  http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/ http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                • John Edgerton
                  That is the kind of information I am looking for. :-) I had thought that the side plates would make it eaiser to replace the nut at a later date. But, I would
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 19, 2004
                    That is the kind of information I am looking for. :-) I had thought
                    that the side plates would make it eaiser to replace the nut at a later
                    date. But, I would rather do without pin failure.

                    Jon

                    Siegfried Sebastian Faust wrote:

                    >Some Comments ...
                    >
                    >>Roller nut with side plates, not laced in.
                    >>
                    >
                    >Ok, question of: Why?
                    >
                    >Some people think that they can't service a crossbow without removable
                    >sideplates. This isn't true (at least, as long as the crossbow is made
                    >correctly).
                    >
                    >The nut should be able to be rotated back and at a certain position lift
                    >out (after cutting the lacing).
                    >
                    >Those with removable side plates and pins have 2 problems (IMO)
                    >A) They are less period in design ... 99% of rolling nut crossbows in
                    >period were socket-based laced on ones.
                    >B) The main reason for (A), is that they suffer one design flaw ... most of
                    >the power of the crossbow is pulling forward on the pin ... putting ALOT of
                    >stress on one small point. A socket-rotating rolling nut, puts it's stress
                    >on the front wood of the socket, a much larger surface area, and therefore,
                    >it doesn't wear out.
                    >
                    >I should know, I have repaired 3 different 'pinned rolling nut' crossbows
                    >because over time the pin would pull forward, either bending or moving
                    >through wood, until the crossbow refuses to cock.
                    >
                    >>Bow irons and trigger of iron or brass
                    >>
                    >
                    >I highly reccomend iron there, for stability, strength, and periodness.
                    >
                    >>Maybe a rear sight
                    >>
                    >
                    >I reccomend making your own for this. Make something simple and play and
                    >see if you like it, then keep modifying as you see fit. Or you might find
                    >that you prefer to not use one.
                    >
                    >>Steel prod
                    >>125 to 175 pound draw, accuracy at longer range. Giving speed up for
                    >>accuracy. I have no problem cocking 150 lb.
                    >>
                    >
                    >I'd reccomend between 125 and 150 then... above that starts to get rough.
                    >
                    >Siegfried
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                    You can have a roller nut and side plates without using an axe or lacing for the nut to turn on. The nut has to be designed without the flat area behind the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 19, 2004
                      You can have a roller nut and side plates without using an axe or lacing for
                      the nut to turn on. The nut has to be designed without the flat area behind
                      the ears. You do want iron bow irons to hold the prod they take a lot of
                      beating form being retighted.

                      I have never had my hands on a true "socket-based" crossbow. The ones I
                      have seen have had the hole for the roller nut drilled though the side of
                      the stock, then wood side plates glued on. Doing it the other way with
                      antler blocks on the front and back of the roller nut is hard, expensive,
                      and not as durable... though very period.

                      James Cunningham
                      > >Roller nut with side plates, not laced in.
                      >
                      > Ok, question of: Why?
                      >
                      > Some people think that they can't service a crossbow without removable
                      > sideplates. This isn't true (at least, as long as the crossbow is made
                      > correctly).
                      >
                      > The nut should be able to be rotated back and at a certain position lift
                      > out (after cutting the lacing).
                      >
                      > Those with removable side plates and pins have 2 problems (IMO)
                      > A) They are less period in design ... 99% of rolling nut crossbows in
                      > period were socket-based laced on ones.
                      > B) The main reason for (A), is that they suffer one design flaw ... most
                      of
                      > the power of the crossbow is pulling forward on the pin ... putting ALOT
                      of
                      > stress on one small point. A socket-rotating rolling nut, puts it's
                      stress
                      > on the front wood of the socket, a much larger surface area, and
                      therefore,
                      > it doesn't wear out.
                      >
                      > I should know, I have repaired 3 different 'pinned rolling nut' crossbows
                      > because over time the pin would pull forward, either bending or moving
                      > through wood, until the crossbow refuses to cock.
                      >
                      > >Bow irons and trigger of iron or brass
                      >
                      > I highly reccomend iron there, for stability, strength, and periodness.
                      >
                      > >Maybe a rear sight
                      >
                      > I reccomend making your own for this. Make something simple and play and
                      > see if you like it, then keep modifying as you see fit. Or you might find
                      > that you prefer to not use one.
                      >
                      > >Steel prod
                      > >125 to 175 pound draw, accuracy at longer range. Giving speed up for
                      > >accuracy. I have no problem cocking 150 lb.
                      >
                      > I'd reccomend between 125 and 150 then... above that starts to get rough.
                      >
                      > Siegfried
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ___________________________________________________________________________
                      > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                      http://crossbows.biz/
                      > Barony of Highland Foorde Baronial Web Minister & Archery
                      Marshal
                      > Kingdom of Atlantia Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target
                      Archery
                      > http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/
                      http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                      >
                      >
                      > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                      > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                      > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                      >
                      > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • John Edgerton
                      There a several of you on this list with good crossbow knowledge. So, I have a few more questions. Which prod is better for accuracy ..... steel, fiberglass,
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 20, 2004
                        There a several of you on this list with good crossbow knowledge. So, I
                        have a few more questions.

                        Which prod is better for accuracy ..... steel, fiberglass, aluminum,
                        wood, etc.? What are the best and worst points of each?

                        What is the best shape for the prod .... straight or recurved?

                        What material is best for the rolling nut and how should it be mounted
                        in the stock?

                        Should the stock be one piece of wood or is laminated better?

                        Should the track have a deep slot for three fletch or is two fletch just
                        as accurate with a shallow slot?

                        Which are more accurate ... short or long bolts?

                        Is there a stock style that is more accurate to shoot and is still period?

                        Those of you that are using some of the SCA made crossbows, what are
                        your opinions of them?

                        How would you describe your idea of the perfect crossbow for accurate
                        target shooting?

                        I know I will think of more questions later. ;-)

                        Jon
                      • Carolus Eulenhorst
                        Since you make them professionally and I know you to be an honourable gentle I suggest that you are the perfect source to give us a brief primer of what to
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 20, 2004
                          Since you make them professionally and I know you to be an honourable
                          gentle I suggest that you are the perfect source to give us a brief
                          primer of what to look for to judge if a crossbow is well made and what
                          features should be present or absent to make it period.
                          Carolus

                          On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:12:42 -0500 Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                          <crossbow@...> writes:
                          > At 02:01 PM 1/19/2004, John Edgerton wrote:
                          > >I will be looking for a period style target crossbow to purchase.
                          > Can
                          > >anyone provide a list of points of things to look for and ask
                          > about
                          > >before buying one?
                          >
                          > It depends on what you are wanting out of it:
                          >
                          > * Period 'look'
                          > * Truly Period Design
                          > * Accuracy
                          > * Speed
                          > etc
                          >
                          > I could go into more details in private if you wish, but I feel a
                          > little
                          > odd about it, since I do make them for sale :)
                          >
                          > Siegfried

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                        • Carolus Eulenhorst
                          I have been using floating nuts (no axial pin) with removable side plates very successfully. The only caution here is to make sure the cavity is closely
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 20, 2004
                            I have been using floating nuts (no axial pin) with removable side plates
                            very successfully. The only caution here is to make sure the cavity is
                            closely fitted to the nut and well polished on at least the front half to
                            give a smooth bearing surface. Even better if it is lined with a thin
                            layer of silicon brass.
                            Carolus

                            On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 20:39:20 -0500 Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                            <crossbow@...> writes:
                            > Some Comments ...
                            >
                            > >Roller nut with side plates, not laced in.
                            >
                            > Ok, question of: Why?
                            >
                            > Some people think that they can't service a crossbow without
                            > removable
                            > sideplates. This isn't true (at least, as long as the crossbow is
                            > made
                            > correctly).
                            >
                            > The nut should be able to be rotated back and at a certain position
                            > lift
                            > out (after cutting the lacing).
                            >
                            > Those with removable side plates and pins have 2 problems (IMO)
                            > A) They are less period in design ... 99% of rolling nut crossbows
                            > in
                            > period were socket-based laced on ones.
                            > B) The main reason for (A), is that they suffer one design flaw ...
                            > most of
                            > the power of the crossbow is pulling forward on the pin ... putting
                            > ALOT of
                            > stress on one small point. A socket-rotating rolling nut, puts it's
                            > stress
                            > on the front wood of the socket, a much larger surface area, and
                            > therefore,
                            > it doesn't wear out.
                            >
                            > I should know, I have repaired 3 different 'pinned rolling nut'
                            > crossbows
                            > because over time the pin would pull forward, either bending or
                            > moving
                            > through wood, until the crossbow refuses to cock.
                            >
                            > >Bow irons and trigger of iron or brass
                            >
                            > I highly reccomend iron there, for stability, strength, and
                            > periodness.
                            >
                            > >Maybe a rear sight
                            >
                            > I reccomend making your own for this. Make something simple and
                            > play and
                            > see if you like it, then keep modifying as you see fit. Or you
                            > might find
                            > that you prefer to not use one.
                            >
                            > >Steel prod
                            > >125 to 175 pound draw, accuracy at longer range. Giving speed up
                            > for
                            > >accuracy. I have no problem cocking 150 lb.
                            >
                            > I'd reccomend between 125 and 150 then... above that starts to get
                            > rough.
                            >
                            > Siegfried

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                          • Carolus Eulenhorst
                            A few notes below: Carolus On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:12:15 -0800 John Edgerton ... As far as accuracy per se probably all the same. The
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 20, 2004
                              A few notes below:
                              Carolus

                              On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:12:15 -0800 John Edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                              writes:
                              > There a several of you on this list with good crossbow knowledge.
                              > So, I
                              > have a few more questions.
                              >
                              > Which prod is better for accuracy ..... steel, fiberglass, aluminum,
                              >
                              > wood, etc.? What are the best and worst points of each?
                              >

                              As far as accuracy per se probably all the same. The difference comes in
                              modulus of elasticity, that is how fast it returns to its original shape.
                              Steel is the slowest, solid fiberglass and aluminum next, laminiated
                              wood and composite construction next (also most period but harder to find
                              or make really needs truly custom work and probably out of the price
                              range you quoted), and modern laminated fiberglass and carbonglass come
                              next in the same relative speeds as in hand bows.

                              > What is the best shape for the prod .... straight or recurved?

                              Recurve

                              >
                              > What material is best for the rolling nut and how should it be
                              > mounted
                              > in the stock?
                              >
                              > Should the stock be one piece of wood or is laminated better?
                              >
                              > Should the track have a deep slot for three fletch or is two fletch
                              > just
                              > as accurate with a shallow slot?
                              >

                              Two fletch seems just fine. My bows don't even have a slot, just a guide
                              at the front end. I personally think this gives the best accuracy as it
                              allows the bolt to float between the guide and the string and lets
                              dynamic balancing take effect.

                              > Which are more accurate ... short or long bolts?
                              >

                              Depends on weight and how they match your crossbow. Like handbow
                              equipment, you'll probably have to experiment unless the maker has done
                              this testing and can give you a recommendation.

                              > Is there a stock style that is more accurate to shoot and is still
                              > period?
                              >
                              > Those of you that are using some of the SCA made crossbows, what are
                              >
                              > your opinions of them?
                              >

                              I think the quality and performance ranges from excellent to mediocre
                              depending on the maker and (even sometimes) the crossbow itself. Of
                              course, this is true of products from most sources.

                              > How would you describe your idea of the perfect crossbow for
                              > accurate
                              > target shooting?
                              >

                              I won't go there because we then get into modern crossbows and that
                              technology really has no place in our game.

                              > I know I will think of more questions later. ;-)
                              >
                              > Jon

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                            • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                              ... For accuracy? They are all the same. The only difference here, is bolt speed/efficiency. A fiberglass prod is more efficient than an aluminum prod than a
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 20, 2004
                                >Which prod is better for accuracy ..... steel, fiberglass, aluminum,
                                >wood, etc.? What are the best and worst points of each?
                                >
                                >What is the best shape for the prod .... straight or recurved?

                                For accuracy? They are all the same.

                                The only difference here, is bolt speed/efficiency. A fiberglass prod is
                                more efficient than an aluminum prod than a steel one. etc.

                                Following are 'Siegfrieds opinions' on prod materials:

                                * Steel - Slow, heavy, but solid and nigh indestructible. They will
                                eventually break over time, but we are talking 3-4 years of HEAVY usage
                                before that. Very period (for the late period bows)

                                * Aluminum - Fast, Light. Doesn't really look period (In my opinion, TOO
                                bright and shiny). Most important to me however, is that I have never
                                known an Aluminum prod to last. I wore one out in less than 1 season of
                                heavy shooting (note: was shooting nonstop for 8 hours a week that
                                season). Now, I have heard people claim that these can be made to last
                                (Talk to Max), but in my opinion, I've never met an aluminum prod that I
                                liked yet. When making crossbows, I only use them if the person provides
                                one to me and requests I use it.

                                * Fiberglass - Fast, Light, REALLY indestructible ... can theoretically
                                last 'forever', although like all things it will degrade over time. Not
                                period in any sense of the word. The big drawback, is that it's shooting
                                characteristics will change in the heat. You will often see fiberglass
                                prod shooters throwing a towel over their bow between ends to keep the sun
                                off it.

                                * Wood - Fast, Light ... easily destructible :) Also, more importantly,
                                it's hard to make a high poundage crossbow prod with just wood. The prod
                                needs to start becoming so wide you might as well use a bow instead. It's
                                one of the main reasons they moved to using composite prods. Composite
                                prods are wonderful things, and I know noone who makes them for sale ... so
                                I won't even go into them right now.

                                >What material is best for the rolling nut and how should it be mounted
                                >in the stock?

                                For material, some people use brass or steel. But this makes an overly
                                heavy nut that makes a 'sluggish' release.

                                The two 'best' period options for a rolling nut, are horn, and wood.

                                The wood is light and quick; however, cannot hold too much weight. I don't
                                recommend them for bows over 100 lbs.

                                Horn, is a great period material for a nut, being somewhat self-lubricating
                                and strong. However, it has a bad tenancy to fail unexpectedly.

                                Which is why, therefore, most/many SCA crossbow makers have gone to using
                                Delrin as a 'horn substitute'. Delrin acts like horn, but is very strong.

                                Another period material would be bone, but I have not played with this
                                myself, nor seen anyone else who has.

                                >Should the stock be one piece of wood or is laminated better?

                                Doesn't really matter. What matters, is that the wood is a 'good strong'
                                hardwood (ie, NOT poplar or soft maple -- stuff like oak, cherry, walnut,
                                hard maple, etc)

                                Also, the grain should be 'vertical', that is to say, running from bottom
                                of crossbow to the top, so that once bound in (or iron'd in), the pressure
                                is pulling across the grain. Otherwise, it stands a chance of cracking open.

                                However, not to dispair, there are three options to work with the grain the
                                'wrong way' and get away with it:

                                A) Lightweight poundage
                                B) Laminate two boards together, making a vertical strength seam.
                                C) Insert a LARGE screw vertically into the wood, just behind the prod
                                socket. This was done in some period bows to help hold the wood together.

                                >Should the track have a deep slot for three fletch or is two fletch just
                                >as accurate with a shallow slot?

                                2 fletch is just as accurate, as long as you match your bolts well to your
                                crossbow (takes some trial and error), and as long as you give a good
                                angle/helical to your crossbow fletches.

                                Also, 3 fletch with one in the groove, is not period. 3 fletch WAS
                                period, but with 1 standing vertical. Period crossbows didn't have a
                                fletch groove, that's a modern invention.

                                >Which are more accurate ... short or long bolts?

                                Depends on your crossbow. In general, you will find two benefits with
                                long bolts. One is that they are more stable in flight on the
                                average. Secondly, that they give you a better sight picture when aiming
                                (having the point sitting out there farther).

                                However, it all depends on the crossbow, they all have different tastes in
                                ammo... I reccomend whatever crossbow you buy, to make yourself a selection
                                of ammo. Different diameters, different weight tips, different
                                lengths. Try them all and see what your crossbow likes best.

                                >Is there a stock style that is more accurate to shoot and is still period?

                                No, not really. In my opinion, accuracy is in the skill of the
                                shooter. The ONLY possible consideration to that effect, is that some
                                people like having a stock that curves down, to bring their eye more in
                                line with the shelf, making a 'flatter' aiming profile. But that is
                                personal preference.

                                >Those of you that are using some of the SCA made crossbows, what are
                                >your opinions of them?

                                I love mine, of course, I made them :)

                                >How would you describe your idea of the perfect crossbow for accurate
                                >target shooting?

                                http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/pointblanc.html The deluxe version of course

                                But I prefer to have some skill in my crossbow shooting, and not something
                                designed for shooting single hole accuracy at 20 yards ...

                                BTW, that's totally illegal for SCA shooting, in multiple ways :)

                                Siegfried
                              • lindorie55
                                ... aluminum, ... prod is ... will ... usage ... If I may interject something here, my lord. I recently witnessed a steel prod, less than a year old, in fact I
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 21, 2004
                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                                  <crossbow@f...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >Which prod is better for accuracy ..... steel, fiberglass,
                                  aluminum,
                                  > >wood, etc.? What are the best and worst points of each?
                                  > >
                                  > >What is the best shape for the prod .... straight or recurved?
                                  >
                                  > For accuracy? They are all the same.
                                  >
                                  > The only difference here, is bolt speed/efficiency. A fiberglass
                                  prod is
                                  > more efficient than an aluminum prod than a steel one. etc.
                                  >
                                  > Following are 'Siegfrieds opinions' on prod materials:
                                  >
                                  > * Steel - Slow, heavy, but solid and nigh indestructible. They
                                  will
                                  > eventually break over time, but we are talking 3-4 years of HEAVY
                                  usage
                                  > before that. Very period (for the late period bows)
                                  >
                                  If I may interject something here, my lord. I recently witnessed a
                                  steel prod, less than a year old, in fact I think it was less than 6
                                  months old, break during a speed round during a Royal Round at one of
                                  our practices. The crossbow was owned by an archer of some repute who
                                  took very good care of it. There had been no indications of failure
                                  before it suddenly broke while the crossbow was being cocked. No
                                  injuries except some bruised knuckles, thank goodness, but it was
                                  frightening to see and hear. The prod had been purchased from a
                                  reputable merchant who has supplied many prods to crossbow owners in
                                  our area.

                                  Linet
                                • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                                  ... Well, a few things: A) This just goes to show to trust nothing. There can always be badly made items or abused items that will fail early. B) This is the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 21, 2004
                                    >If I may interject something here, my lord. I recently witnessed a
                                    >steel prod, less than a year old, in fact I think it was less than 6
                                    >months old, break during a speed round during a Royal Round at one of
                                    >our practices. The crossbow was owned by an archer of some repute who
                                    >took very good care of it. There had been no indications of failure
                                    >before it suddenly broke while the crossbow was being cocked. No
                                    >injuries except some bruised knuckles, thank goodness, but it was
                                    >frightening to see and hear. The prod had been purchased from a
                                    >reputable merchant who has supplied many prods to crossbow owners in
                                    >our area.

                                    Well, a few things:

                                    A) This just goes to show to trust nothing. There can always be badly
                                    made items or abused items that will fail early.

                                    B) This is the reason why any steel/aluminum/etc prods, should be fitted
                                    with some device to keep the metal bits from flying. Personally I either
                                    use artifical sinew wrapped at various points down the prod, or I used a
                                    wrap of leather sewn on around the center part of the prod, as all
                                    breakages I have witness of metal crossbow prods happen at the point where
                                    the prod meets the stock.

                                    C) If you are referring to Master Gladius as the merchant, he had a bad
                                    batch of crossbow prods a while back which he recalled/replaced ... This
                                    may have been one of them. I had two of that bad batch break within the
                                    first few days of shooting.

                                    Siegfried



                                    ___________________________________________________________________________
                                    THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust http://crossbows.biz/
                                    Barony of Highland Foorde Baronial Web Minister & Archery Marshal
                                    Kingdom of Atlantia Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                    http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/ http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                                  • Scott Jaqua
                                    I ll donate what little knowledge I have on this topic. For a paper on the building of shorter, two fletch bolts, the how and why I do it, please check out the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 21, 2004
                                      I'll donate what little knowledge I have on this topic.

                                      For a paper on the building of shorter, two fletch bolts, the how and why I
                                      do it, please check out the following page on my web site.

                                      http://sjaqua.tripod.com/bolts.htm

                                      Njall Olaf Hagerson

                                      Scott B. Jaqua
                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      -----------------------------
                                      The most import right of all, is that of free speech. Without that, all your
                                      other rights will soon be taken away. So, I may disagree with what you say,
                                      but I will defend until death, your right to say it!
                                    • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                                      ... An excellent written paper Njall ... Mind if I make a few comments? (Well, I m going to make them anyway, so I hope you don t mind) ... Actually, they
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jan 21, 2004
                                        At 11:25 AM 1/21/2004, Scott Jaqua wrote:
                                        >I'll donate what little knowledge I have on this topic.
                                        >
                                        >For a paper on the building of shorter, two fletch bolts, the how and why I
                                        >do it, please check out the following page on my web site.
                                        >
                                        >http://sjaqua.tripod.com/bolts.htm
                                        >
                                        >Njall Olaf Hagerson

                                        An excellent written paper Njall ...

                                        Mind if I make a few comments? (Well, I'm going to make them anyway, so I
                                        hope you don't mind)

                                        >2) Crossbows by definition are center shot. So issues of arrow spine, do
                                        >not effect crossbow bolts.

                                        Actually, they aren't center shot. Or if they are, they are illegal by SCA
                                        standards. They however, due to their shorter bolt length, shorter draw,
                                        and having a track/guide, simply don't mind spine nearly as much ...

                                        AS LONG AS, there is enough spine to keep the bolt from flexing, at all ...
                                        you want them solid. If someone was to make 28" bolts for their crossbow,
                                        they would start having to worry about spine.

                                        There is also the fact that the stiffness of the shaft increases as you cut
                                        it shorter ... at the shortness that bolts are cut (especially short
                                        bolts), they are extremely 'high spined'

                                        Personally, I always recommend buying the highest weighed spine shafts for
                                        your diameter ... at least a 'goodly spined' group. It never hurts.

                                        >The balance point can be almost anywhere, so long as it is forward of the
                                        >center of drag.

                                        I've actually found that with many crossbows, the farther forward the
                                        balance point, the better. Making it become more of a bullet with a
                                        streamer behind it in flight ... I use 165gr tips on my 11/32 :)

                                        >Select the lightest premium grade 5/16 shafts you can find.

                                        Just a note that 5/16 doesn't work for all crossbows ... some prefer 11/32
                                        or thicker ... YCMMV (Your Crossbow Mileage May Vary) Plus you can get
                                        heavier points for the 11/32, making potentially even more point heavy bolts.

                                        >If in cutting the point taper, you remove too much wood, toss the shaft in
                                        >the trash.
                                        >Don't be afraid to toss any bolts that still fall out of the group.

                                        I never recommend throwing any bolts into the trash. Keep them for the
                                        'over water' shoots, the 'target hidden between 3 rocks' shoots and the 'no
                                        backdrop, just miles of thorns if you miss' shoots. While that little bit
                                        of weight difference may affect getting 6 golds at 30yds as opposed to 3
                                        golds 3reds ... it doesn't matter that much when the target is a foam deer,
                                        and it's better to use the 'bad' bolts that you don't mind loosing.

                                        >However, if you spin the bolt too much you create excess drag. A slow bolt
                                        >is much more effected by cross winds and such.

                                        True ... but I'd personally rather have a very stable, heavy, long bolt
                                        that fires consistantly, than a 'fast' one, that might have other problems.

                                        I always err on the side of stability, which is why I go for longer bolts,
                                        with HEAVY tips, and a good strong fletch angle.

                                        Siegfried



                                        ___________________________________________________________________________
                                        THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust http://crossbows.biz/
                                        Barony of Highland Foorde Baronial Web Minister & Archery Marshal
                                        Kingdom of Atlantia Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                        http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/ http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
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