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Advanced arrow making

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  • Scott Jaqua
    So you feel, that you are starting to peak out in performance with the equipment you have. Your form is consistent and your scores are consistently high. So
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 6, 2002
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      So you feel, that you are starting to peak out in performance with the
      equipment you have. Your form is consistent and your scores are consistently
      high. So now you want to squeeze a few more points out of your gear. Now
      more then ever it's time to think about making your own arrows.

      Step1) select the shafts

      This has been covered by others much better then I can, however let me say
      you will want to buy select premium shafts and then select further from
      there. Weigh the shafts on a gram scale. Find the average and then toss any
      that exceed the standard deviation.

      Step 2) Balance the arrow

      This is the poor mans way to correctly balance your arrows. Cut your shafts
      to length. Find the center point of the shaft. now measure 9% of the total
      length in front of center. (i.e.: I shoot 32 inch uncut shafts, 9% of 32" is
      2.88") Tie a string at this point. At this point you will tie the point on
      with thread at one end and the nock and fletching at the other (making a
      simple balance type scale). You want to select points, nocks and fletching
      that allow the arrow to balance at 9% of the total length (+/- 1%) in front
      of the center point.

      Step 3) Check stability

      Make one arrow (you may be tossing this one). Tie a string at the balance
      point. Swing it around your head with about 6' of string. A stable arrow
      will swing around almost perpendicular to the string. If the center of drag
      is too far forward, the point of the arrow will try to point away from you.
      If the arrow isn't stable strip off the fletching and try again with a
      greater angle of attack.

      Once you have a balanced stable arrow, you find your groups will be tighter.

      BTW, this is only for arrows, not crossbow bolts. Arrows fly very
      differently then crossbow bolts. Arrows fly to the target gaining some lift
      via point planing. Bolts are falling the entire way. (Tapered shafts are a
      whole different story)

      Njall

      Scott B. Jaqua

      SCA Link http://sjaqua.tripod.com

      Gaming Link http://www.geocities.com/sjaqua/
    • Scott L Hecathorn
      ... This confuses me, you re saying that bolts dont have rise? Robert ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 9, 2002
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        > BTW, this is only for arrows, not crossbow bolts. Arrows fly very
        > differently then crossbow bolts. Arrows fly to the target gaining
        > some lift
        > via point planing. Bolts are falling the entire way. (Tapered shafts
        > are a
        > whole different story)

        This confuses me, you're saying that bolts dont have rise?

        Robert
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      • Chad Wilson
        ... Interesting. According to the various physics people I ve talked to, it is a myth that anything not self-propelled gains height. Once it s off the bow,
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 11, 2002
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          --- Scott L Hecathorn <robert1015@...> wrote:
          > > BTW, this is only for arrows, not crossbow bolts. Arrows fly very
          > > differently then crossbow bolts. Arrows fly to the target gaining
          > > some lift
          > > via point planing. Bolts are falling the entire way. (Tapered shafts
          > > are a
          > > whole different story)
          >
          > This confuses me, you're saying that bolts dont have rise?

          Interesting. According to the various physics people I've talked to, it is a
          myth that anything not self-propelled gains height. Once it's off the bow,
          gravity is pulling it down. Bullets, arrows, people...anything that flings
          itself through the air. The Rising Fastball is even a myth as it is just
          released at a higher angle than usual.

          -Caedmon

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        • Carl West
          ... It depends on the relative placement of the Center of Gravity (CG) aka the balance point and the Center of Pressure (CP) aka the center of the _area_ of
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 11, 2002
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            Chad Wilson wrote:
            >
            > --- Scott L Hecathorn <robert1015@...> wrote:
            > > > BTW, this is only for arrows, not crossbow bolts. Arrows fly very
            > > > differently then crossbow bolts. Arrows fly to the target gaining
            > > > some lift
            > > > via point planing. Bolts are falling the entire way. (Tapered shafts
            > > > are a
            > > > whole different story)

            It depends on the relative placement of the Center of Gravity (CG) aka the balance point and the Center of Pressure (CP) aka the center of the _area_ of the arrow as seen from the side.
            The further the CG is forward of the CP, the more the arrow follows the ballistic path. The closer the distance between the CG and CP approaches (something like) 5% of the length of the arrow, the more it will tend to glide, staying pointed roughly horizontal despite its downward path, traveling further than straight ballistics would suggest. Perhaps this is the 'point planing' and 'lift' mentioned above.

            I'm sure it is possible to build bolts that will glide, and I _know_ that it is possible to build arrows that don't. (~600 grain bodkin points with 5" long, 1/2" high, rhomboid fletches. They fly like bricks, and hit like them too.)

            <Personal theory>
            The more closely balanced (CG close to CP) a projectile, the more sensitive it is to differences in spine, fletch and release.
            </Personal theory>

            > > This confuses me, you're saying that bolts dont have rise?
            >
            > Interesting. According to the various physics people I've talked to, it is a
            > myth that anything not self-propelled gains height. Once it's off the bow,
            > gravity is pulling it down. Bullets, arrows, people...anything that flings
            > itself through the air. The Rising Fastball is even a myth as it is just
            > released at a higher angle than usual.

            Doubly interesting. Your physics people are ignoring aerodynamic effects, especially Bernoulli's.
            Try this experiment:
            create a long strip of paper, say 2" wide (I used a 3' length of adding-machine paper
            Wrap it around the center of something like a paper towel tube
            Set the tube a few inches from the edge of a table with the paper coming out beneath it
            Briskly pull the paper straight out at the level of the table.
            You should see the tube _curve_upward_ into the air then 'glide' as it flies across the room.

            (I just did it. It works)

            The Rising Fastball does the same, it is just a curve ball thrown with its spin in the vertical plane, a Sinker spins the other way.

            Of course this doesn't apply to arrows, if they are spinning on an axis that is perpendicular to the direction of travel, there's something very wrong.

            -- Fritz

            --
            Carl West eisen@...
            http://people.ne.mediaone.net/eisen

            "Everyone generalizes from a single case. I do it."
            - Vlad Taltos in _Issola_ by Steven Brust
          • Bruce
            ... Yes and no, yes and no. (plus you ve opened yourself up to the various people with physics backgrounds in the real world ;) ) If you have an object (eg, a
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 11, 2002
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              On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Chad Wilson wrote:

              > --- Scott L Hecathorn <robert1015@...> wrote:
              > > > BTW, this is only for arrows, not crossbow bolts. Arrows fly very
              > > > differently then crossbow bolts. Arrows fly to the target gaining
              > > > some lift
              > > > via point planing. Bolts are falling the entire way. (Tapered shafts
              > > > are a
              > > > whole different story)
              > >
              > > This confuses me, you're saying that bolts dont have rise?
              >
              > Interesting. According to the various physics people I've talked to, it is a
              > myth that anything not self-propelled gains height. Once it's off the bow,
              > gravity is pulling it down. Bullets, arrows, people...anything that flings
              > itself through the air. The Rising Fastball is even a myth as it is just
              > released at a higher angle than usual.

              Yes and no, yes and no. (plus you've opened yourself up to the various
              people with physics backgrounds in the real world ;) )

              If you have an object (eg, a crossbow bolt) without lifting surfaces, then
              irrespective of the angle at which it leaves it's propulsion, the object
              will fall to earth at a rate determined by gravity and air friction. Of
              course, it will travel a goodly horizontal distance, but it is falling.

              Objects with lifting surfaces (ie, the feathers on an arrow,
              creatively-prepared bolts etc) will have their rate of fall modified to
              the extent that the lifting surfaces are able to contribute lift, until
              air friction slows the object down to a point where the lifting surfaces
              have no effect.

              ( ie, it is possible for a non-self-propelled object such as a feathered
              arrow to demonstrate 'rise', until air friction slows the object down.
              For classic example, go make a paper plane and throw it. )

              For the 'Rising Fastball' (technically feasible) explanations, see either:

              Layman's explanation:
              http://www.earthsky.com/2001/esmi010703.html
              Magnus Equations and etc:
              http://www.wooster.edu/physics/JrIS/Files/nowicki.pdf

              --==--
              Bruce.
            • David Peno
              This statement also confuses me. If that were the case there would be major problems with gliders. I think difference is if the projectile has the ability to
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 11, 2002
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                This statement also confuses me. If that were the
                case there would be major problems with gliders. I
                think difference is if the projectile has the ability
                to provide lift. A bullet does not produce any lift,
                if it does it is very small, a glider does provide a
                great deal of lift, as to arrows.....I dont know.

                John

                --- Chad Wilson <caeman@...> wrote:
                > --- Scott L Hecathorn <robert1015@...> wrote:
                > > > BTW, this is only for arrows, not crossbow
                > bolts. Arrows fly very
                > > > differently then crossbow bolts. Arrows fly to
                > the target gaining
                > > > some lift
                > > > via point planing. Bolts are falling the entire
                > way. (Tapered shafts
                > > > are a
                > > > whole different story)
                > >
                > > This confuses me, you're saying that bolts dont
                > have rise?
                >
                > Interesting. According to the various physics
                > people I've talked to, it is a
                > myth that anything not self-propelled gains height.
                > Once it's off the bow,
                > gravity is pulling it down. Bullets, arrows,
                > people...anything that flings
                > itself through the air. The Rising Fastball is even
                > a myth as it is just
                > released at a higher angle than usual.
                >
                > -Caedmon
                >
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              • cwilson@mhmh.org
                Okay, here is my question... As with the illusion of the rising fastball, is it possible that the rising arrow is an illusion as well, simply that the
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 11, 2002
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                  Okay, here is my question...

                  As with the "illusion" of the rising fastball, is it possible that the
                  rising arrow is an "illusion" as well, simply that the aerodynamics are
                  helping the arrow to fall 'less slowly' than we expect?

                  -Caedmon
                • Marcin Marszeniuk
                  Greetings, I m looking for a place to buy full length feathers (around or in Chicago , if it s possible - if not, than any other in US). I ll appreciate any
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 4 10:44 AM
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                    Greetings,

                    I'm looking for a place to buy full length feathers (around or in
                    Chicago , if it's possible - if not, than any other in US).

                    I'll appreciate any help.

                    Marcin Marszeniuk mailto:natas@...
                  • Guy Taylor
                    Wholesale only: http://www.gatewayfeathers.com/ Wholesale only: http://www.trueflightfeathers.com/ http://www.keepitsimplearchery.com/
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 4 6:17 PM
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                      Wholesale only: http://www.gatewayfeathers.com/

                      Wholesale only: http://www.trueflightfeathers.com/

                      http://www.keepitsimplearchery.com/

                      http://www.bowsite.org/lostnation/

                      http://www.raptorarchery.com/default.htm

                      http://www.rogueriverarchery.com/

                      http://home.hiwaay.net/~arrowman/

                      http://www.3riversarchery.com/

                      http://www.valleytradarchery.com/

                      That should keep you busy for a half hour, or so... :-)

                      Taillear


                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Marcin Marszeniuk [mailto:natas@...]
                      > Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 10:45 AM
                      > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Info needed
                      >
                      >
                      > Greetings,
                      >
                      > I'm looking for a place to buy full length feathers (around or in
                      > Chicago , if it's possible - if not, than any other in US).
                      >
                      > I'll appreciate any help.
                      >
                      > Marcin Marszeniuk mailto:natas@...
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