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Re: [SCA-Archery] English or "British" Longbows???

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  • eulenhorst@juno.com
    Thanks for the update on more recent work by the Mary Rose Trust. Much of my information is a few years out of date. In service to the dream, Carolus von
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 9, 2002
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      Thanks for the update on more recent work by the Mary Rose Trust. Much
      of my information is a few years out of date.

      In service to the dream,
      Carolus von Eulenhorst
      eulenhorst@...

      On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:34:00 -0500 "Russ Sheldon" <sheldon@...>
      writes:
      > I loved your data but as stated by another I think you have devalued
      > the
      > weights on the bows recovered from the Mary Rose...
      >
      > <snip>
      > According to the Mary Rose trust and Robert Hardy ( Actually got to
      > handle
      > and see some of the artifacts and pull a reproduction the museum
      > made of a
      > 100lb longbow last April ) Most of the bows recovered are between
      > 90lbs and
      > 130lbs draw with some as high as 180lbs. They've also found 2 types
      > of
      > arrows a long 30 to 33 inch and another 27 to 28", one was used with
      > a
      > bodkin ( the long one) and the other a target arrow. Sorry can't
      > remember
      > which number's they were. The bodkin in tests goes about 250 yards
      > and the
      > target about 450 yards ( the Trust article does not state the
      > poundage of
      > the bow used from these distances???). In the 1980's the bows
      > recovered were
      > believed to be under 100 lbs, after testing 10 of the best bows and
      > looking
      > at the quality of the wood ( 157 rings to the inch which would come
      > off a
      > 600 year old tree ,anyone know where a 600 year old yew tree is that
      > is 4 to
      > 5 inches in diameter? ) they commissioned several reproductions to
      > see if
      > there models would work ( the wood from the 10 best was more damaged
      > than
      > thought and only one bow was actually able to be pulled to 28"
      > without
      > damage but the data from this and the cross sections of the damaged
      > bows
      > yielded more info). From the test they now can state with a high
      > degree of
      > accuracy what each of the bows would have pulled. Since the initial
      > tests
      > that Hardy did The articles the war museum and the trust put out
      > show that
      > they have now made 12 reproductions for test and without pulling the
      > bows or
      > knowing the poundage ahead of time they have with there models come
      > to
      > within a half a pound on each. Thus showing there models are fairly
      > accurate
      > they have catalogued at least 200 of the bows recovered and
      > assigned
      > poundage's to each.
      > As for your belief that the bows would have been for the
      > flagship and
      > thus of higher quality the manifest for the Mary Rose stated that
      > the bows
      > in question were drawn from regular armoury stores and were found in
      > said
      > armoury crates. Knowing a bit about how armies store there weapons
      > and ammo
      > and under the idea that very little has changed I highly doubt that
      > the
      > crates would have been special just for the Mary Rose. Also it's
      > believed
      > that some of the bows found were destined for the garrison on the
      > Isle of
      > Wight.
      >
      > Just some more info.
      >
      > Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
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    • conradvonzollern
      I was also unaware of this additional research. Thank you for sharing it, I am always looking for more pieces of the puzzle. ;^) As to your military knowledge
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 9, 2002
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        I was also unaware of this additional research. Thank you for sharing
        it, I am always looking for more pieces of the puzzle. ;^)

        As to your military knowledge of weapons storage, I have some too...
        Want to compare what a regular infantry regiment has on their TO&E to
        say, what the 3/75th Ranger Regiment actually has, on any given day?
        I bet that hasn't changed that much either...

        Who they were and where they were headed is all speculation. My
        whole "hand picked Danes from Kent" commentary was purely tongue-in-
        cheek.

        As a matter of fact, I believe it was stated in Hardy's book that the
        powerful bows may have been either for troops for deployment
        elsewhere, or maintained onboard to assist in rangefinding and
        determining windage adjustments for gunnery, which blows the entire
        theory all to hell... Because as someone else said, some of us could
        pull these bows occasionally, or for a while, but it would take a
        very seriously conditioned archer (who was probably weak with
        sickness) to have shot a 185 pound bow all day long at Agincourt...

        Conrad Von Zollern

        --- In SCA-Archery@y..., eulenhorst@j... wrote:
        > Thanks for the update on more recent work by the Mary Rose Trust.
        Much
        > of my information is a few years out of date.
        >
        > In service to the dream,
        > Carolus von Eulenhorst
        > eulenhorst@j...
        >
        > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:34:00 -0500 "Russ Sheldon" <sheldon@p...>
        > writes:
        > > I loved your data but as stated by another I think you have
        devalued
        > > the
        > > weights on the bows recovered from the Mary Rose...
        > >
        > > <snip>
        > > According to the Mary Rose trust and Robert Hardy ( Actually got
        to
        > > handle
        > > and see some of the artifacts and pull a reproduction the museum
        > > made of a
        > > 100lb longbow last April ) Most of the bows recovered are between
        > > 90lbs and
        > > 130lbs draw with some as high as 180lbs. They've also found 2
        types
        > > of
        > > arrows a long 30 to 33 inch and another 27 to 28", one was used
        with
        > > a
        > > bodkin ( the long one) and the other a target arrow. Sorry can't
        > > remember
        > > which number's they were. The bodkin in tests goes about 250
        yards
        > > and the
        > > target about 450 yards ( the Trust article does not state the
        > > poundage of
        > > the bow used from these distances???). In the 1980's the bows
        > > recovered were
        > > believed to be under 100 lbs, after testing 10 of the best bows
        and
        > > looking
        > > at the quality of the wood ( 157 rings to the inch which would
        come
        > > off a
        > > 600 year old tree ,anyone know where a 600 year old yew tree is
        that
        > > is 4 to
        > > 5 inches in diameter? ) they commissioned several reproductions
        to
        > > see if
        > > there models would work ( the wood from the 10 best was more
        damaged
        > > than
        > > thought and only one bow was actually able to be pulled to 28"
        > > without
        > > damage but the data from this and the cross sections of the
        damaged
        > > bows
        > > yielded more info). From the test they now can state with a high
        > > degree of
        > > accuracy what each of the bows would have pulled. Since the
        initial
        > > tests
        > > that Hardy did The articles the war museum and the trust put out
        > > show that
        > > they have now made 12 reproductions for test and without pulling
        the
        > > bows or
        > > knowing the poundage ahead of time they have with there models
        come
        > > to
        > > within a half a pound on each. Thus showing there models are
        fairly
        > > accurate
        > > they have catalogued at least 200 of the bows recovered and
        > > assigned
        > > poundage's to each.
        > > As for your belief that the bows would have been for the
        > > flagship and
        > > thus of higher quality the manifest for the Mary Rose stated that
        > > the bows
        > > in question were drawn from regular armoury stores and were found
        in
        > > said
        > > armoury crates. Knowing a bit about how armies store there
        weapons
        > > and ammo
        > > and under the idea that very little has changed I highly doubt
        that
        > > the
        > > crates would have been special just for the Mary Rose. Also it's
        > > believed
        > > that some of the bows found were destined for the garrison on the
        > > Isle of
        > > Wight.
        > >
        > > Just some more info.
        > >
        > > Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
        > ________________________________________________________________
        > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
        > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
        > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
        > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
      • wodeford
        ... All day? I m going to guess you meant that as a figure of speech? All my books are packed where I can t get to them, so I can t be 100% certain, but I
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 9, 2002
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          --- In SCA-Archery@y..., "conradvonzollern" <ConradVonZollern@a...>
          wrote:
          > Because as someone else said, some of us could
          > pull these bows occasionally, or for a while, but it would take a
          > very seriously conditioned archer (who was probably weak with
          > sickness) to have shot a 185 pound bow all day long at Agincourt...

          All day? I'm going to guess you meant that as a figure of speech?

          All my books are packed where I can't get to them, so I can't be 100%
          certain, but I THINK I'm remembering an account from Desmond Seward's
          biography of Henry V. If memory serves correctly, our boys had been
          marching in the rain for something like a week on little or no food,
          many suffering from dysentery. The English army was formed up at
          dawn, then stood around for some hours waiting for the French to get
          on with it. Factor in a finite amount of arrows to be shot. Sooner or
          later it was down your bow and start fighting hand to hand and/or
          taking French hostages. Which is not to take anything away from the
          deadly skill of England's archers on that day, because they got the
          job done.

          What am I doing, writing to you folks? I have to PACK!!!!

          Cheers,
          Jehanne de Wodeford, Rusted Woodlands, East (for another week and a
          half)
        • Russ Sheldon
          No problem, my friends had to drag me out of the museums and when I actually got some researchers to talk to me, at the Mary Rose, and take me out to me some
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 10, 2002
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            No problem, my friends had to drag me out of the museums and when I actually
            got some researchers to talk to me, at the Mary Rose, and take me out to me
            some of there staff who had a re-enactors booth across the street to show
            some of the bows they've had made and some arrows and we talked... Since
            then they've been sending me stuff monthly. Trust me I wish someone would
            actually come out with something new but from what I was told it may be 15
            or so years until we see someone publish for public consumption. sigh!

            > I was also unaware of this additional research. Thank you for sharing
            > it, I am always looking for more pieces of the puzzle. ;^)
            >
            > As to your military knowledge of weapons storage, I have some too...
            > Want to compare what a regular infantry regiment has on their TO&E to
            > say, what the 3/75th Ranger Regiment actually has, on any given day?
            > I bet that hasn't changed that much either...

            Why did I just get a reminded of the scene in Mash where the quartermaster
            tells them on there request form to scratch out machine gun and fill in
            Pizza oven? When I was in the reserves and many pounds and moons ago the
            guns we had and the guns we were suppose to have were to different things.
            But thats in Canada where if we buy a used vietnam era Hercules from the US
            with a few thousand hours on it, its a brand new herc.

            >
            > Who they were and where they were headed is all speculation. My
            > whole "hand picked Danes from Kent" commentary was purely tongue-in-
            > cheek.

            ok...
            >
            > As a matter of fact, I believe it was stated in Hardy's book that the
            > powerful bows may have been either for troops for deployment
            > elsewhere, or maintained onboard to assist in rangefinding and
            > determining windage adjustments for gunnery, which blows the entire
            > theory all to hell... Because as someone else said, some of us could
            > pull these bows occasionally, or for a while, but it would take a
            > very seriously conditioned archer (who was probably weak with
            > sickness) to have shot a 185 pound bow all day long at Agincourt...

            I agree, they were a whole different man/archer then we could dream of. As
            for the range finding etc, that's possible, we just don't know. One article
            I read said that they could be for the Isle of Wight because the ship had 3
            times the amount of bows it should have had while another said that it could
            also have been extra stores for a long deployment. Who knows? Hardy Just
            says that it could have but doesn't say why? The era was sort of the switch
            over in naval warfare from archery and boarding to Cannon and boarding. The
            Mary Rose with both a gun deck and a archers deck may have been the
            transitional idea of the time? Who knows?

            Just some thoughts.

            Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
          • James De Warrenne
            ... They send you stuff monthly? What kind of stuff do they send? And is it possible to pass said stuff around? Ld James
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 10, 2002
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              >From: "Russ Sheldon" <sheldon@...>
              >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              >To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
              >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: English or "British" Longbows???
              >Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:10:37 -0500
              >
              >No problem, my friends had to drag me out of the museums and when I
              >actually
              >got some researchers to talk to me, at the Mary Rose, and take me out to me
              >some of there staff who had a re-enactors booth across the street to show
              >some of the bows they've had made and some arrows and we talked... Since
              >then they've been sending me stuff monthly. Trust me I wish someone would
              >actually come out with something new but from what I was told it may be 15
              >or so years until we see someone publish for public consumption. sigh!
              >
              They send you stuff monthly? What kind of stuff do they send? And is it
              possible to pass said "stuff" around?

              Ld James


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            • Russ Sheldon
              ... These are articles and research papers that the trust and the Royal armouries puts together monthly. They look like research papers and are published
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 10, 2002
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                > They send you stuff monthly? What kind of stuff do they send? And is it
                > possible to pass said "stuff" around?
                >
                > Ld James
                These are articles and research papers that the trust and the Royal
                armouries puts together monthly. They look like research papers and are
                published through the Trust. The December One was mostly a paper on the
                status of the paraffin treatments the Mary Rose has been having and how its
                going faster than they expected. ( There using paraffin as a preservative on
                the hull of the Mary Rose and spray it with a mixture of water and paraffin
                until the paraffin displaces the water in the wood of the Hull. ) To be
                honest I don't know if I'm getting them as a member of the trust ( which I
                joined) or because there being kind to me. I'll find out and get back to
                you.

                Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
              • Harry Bilings
                Are they using paraffin or some other method. They have developed a preservation method using some thing that mixes with water to restore the la Bella. It is
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 10, 2002
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                  Are they using paraffin or some other method. They have developed a
                  preservation method using some thing that mixes with water to restore the la
                  Bella. It is sprayed on and or soaked in and will displace the water does a
                  nice job but can not be reversed.
                  plachoya
                  >

                  >These are articles and research papers that the trust and the Royal
                  >armouries puts together monthly. They look like research papers and are
                  >published through the Trust. The December One was mostly a paper on the
                  >status of the paraffin treatments the Mary Rose has been having and how its
                  >going faster than they expected. ( There using paraffin as a preservative
                  >on
                  >the hull of the Mary Rose and spray it with a mixture of water and paraffin
                  >until the paraffin displaces the water in the wood of the Hull. ) To be
                  >honest I don't know if I'm getting them as a member of the trust ( which I
                  >joined) or because there being kind to me. I'll find out and get back to
                  >you.
                  >
                  >Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
                  >

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                • Russ Sheldon
                  The actual stuff is Polyethylene Glycol and water mixture which has been sprayed on the Mary Rose 24/7 since 94. I have no idea what they are using on the La
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 11, 2002
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                    The actual stuff is Polyethylene Glycol and water mixture which has been
                    sprayed on the Mary Rose 24/7 since 94. I have no idea what they are using
                    on the La Bella but it most likely is the same solution.

                    Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Harry Bilings" <humble_archer@...>
                    To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 8:21 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: English or "British" Longbows???


                    > Are they using paraffin or some other method. They have developed a
                    > preservation method using some thing that mixes with water to restore the
                    la
                    > Bella. It is sprayed on and or soaked in and will displace the water does
                    a
                    > nice job but can not be reversed.
                    > plachoya
                    > >
                    >
                    > >These are articles and research papers that the trust and the Royal
                    > >armouries puts together monthly. They look like research papers and are
                    > >published through the Trust. The December One was mostly a paper on the
                    > >status of the paraffin treatments the Mary Rose has been having and how
                    its
                    > >going faster than they expected. ( There using paraffin as a preservative
                    > >on
                    > >the hull of the Mary Rose and spray it with a mixture of water and
                    paraffin
                    > >until the paraffin displaces the water in the wood of the Hull. ) To be
                    > >honest I don't know if I'm getting them as a member of the trust ( which
                    I
                    > >joined) or because there being kind to me. I'll find out and get back to
                    > >you.
                    > >
                    > >Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
                    > >
                    >
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                  • Harry Bilings
                    That sounds like what it is and as they (a Prof at TAMU) has a patent on it that would be my guess. plachoya ...
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 11, 2002
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                      That sounds like what it is and as they (a Prof at TAMU) has a patent on it
                      that would be my guess.
                      plachoya

                      >From: "Russ Sheldon" <sheldon@...>
                      >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: English or "British" Longbows???
                      >Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:48:22 -0500
                      >
                      >The actual stuff is Polyethylene Glycol and water mixture which has been
                      >sprayed on the Mary Rose 24/7 since 94. I have no idea what they are using
                      >on the La Bella but it most likely is the same solution.
                      >
                      >Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
                      >

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