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Re: What constitutes a period bow?

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  • grey_taylor
    Caid: Period Division The purpose for the period division is to encourage archers to try to use archery gear that is modeled after those used before 1600. Both
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 2, 2002
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      Caid:

      Period Division
      The purpose for the period division is to encourage archers to try to
      use archery gear that is modeled after those used before 1600. Both
      long bows or recurves may be used. Modern materials (i.e. artificial
      sinew, fiber glass, etc.) may be used as long as the use does not
      give an unfair advantage in performance over period materials. Arrows
      must be self nocked. The archer should be able to document the parts
      of their gear.


      --- In SCA-Archery@y..., "jameswolfden" <jim_welch@c...> wrote:
      > I was wondering what the different kingdoms consider a period bow.
      It
      > seems to me that there is a dearth of period documentation on the
      > different tiller of self-bows used in England and Europe. I might
      > speculate that the Welsh elm bow was a flat bow rather than an
      > english long bow but I can't find much documentation that actually
      > describes in detail its shape and tiller.
      >
      > Would you consider a flat bow period? Would the shape of its handle
      > make a difference? I tend to associate the narrow handle to be a
      more
      > new world influence but bows like the holmegaard and meare heath
      show
      > the style existed pre-period.
      >
      > Would you consider a hickory-backed ELB with horn nocks period or
      > would you demand documentation that showed that the english used
      > composite materials in their bow?
      >
      > How period do you have to be to be period?
      >
      > James Wolfden
      > Lions Gate
    • Bruce R. Gordon
      Greetings I haven t done detailed research in the area, but I have wandered through some sources. Nothing that I ve seen suggests that flatbows were common in
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2002
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        Greetings
        I haven't done detailed research in the area, but I have wandered through
        some sources. Nothing that I've seen suggests that flatbows were common
        in Europe within period. I agree that the technology precedes period
        (vide Holmegaard, etc.), but it seems not to have had much influence
        overall.
        I've never heard of a period ELB as a composite, except perhaps in the
        riser. Composites were known, of course; Huns, Mongols, Turks, they all
        built composite bows - you find that sort of thing wherever archery is
        regarded as useful, but ready sources of wood are scarce. And in any
        event, hickory is a New World wood.
        All of which tends to beg the question, of course. If you are trying to
        build a bow for an Arts-and-Sciences competition, you will need to hit
        the books very thoroughly, and then build a classic yew or ash longbow
        with a "D" section (if you are doing a Western bow - an Eastern
        horse-bow can use all sorts of materials, of course). But for use in
        Period Division shoots, you will be held to a less rigorous standard.

        Cordially;
        Forester Nigel FitzMaurice (Mid)

        jameswolfden wrote:

        > I was wondering what the different kingdoms consider a period bow. It
        > seems to me that there is a dearth of period documentation on the
        > different tiller of self-bows used in England and Europe. I might
        > speculate that the Welsh elm bow was a flat bow rather than an
        > english long bow but I can't find much documentation that actually
        > describes in detail its shape and tiller.
        >
        > Would you consider a flat bow period? Would the shape of its handle
        > make a difference? I tend to associate the narrow handle to be a more
        > new world influence but bows like the holmegaard and meare heath show
        > the style existed pre-period.
        >
        > Would you consider a hickory-backed ELB with horn nocks period or
        > would you demand documentation that showed that the english used
        > composite materials in their bow?
        >
        > How period do you have to be to be period?
        >
        > James Wolfden
        > Lions Gate
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---8<---------------------------------------------
        > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2001 by Baron Bows
        > Need a bow? Check http://www.baronbows.com/
        >
        > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
        >
        >
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        --
        Ex Tenebra, Lux

        http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
      • john moore
        Nigel, on this I would have to disagree with you on this. In general most European bows were based on a flatbow design. The long bow that we know of is
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2002
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          Nigel, on this I would have to disagree with you on this. In general most
          European bows were based on a flatbow design. The long bow that we know of
          is pretty much limited to the welsh and english. Most good sources in
          england will even go so far as to say that they are one and the same. The
          thing to remember is that there are only two good sources of yew in Europe,
          England and Spain, the spanish being considered the better. The lack of
          good wood on the European mainland was one of the contributing factors to
          the rise of the crossbows prominence. Ash is a good substitute but one must
          remember that the dearth of material about ELB are from the Mary Rose.
          There is not enough documentation as the bows did not survive the years. So
          one could not say, that a ELB has to be just Yew or Ash. I do agree that no
          matter what you build it should have excellent documentation, but do not
          limit it to only the ELB. Flatbows, Hornbows and Sinew-backed bows were
          common in period.(Check out some of the Scandinavian traditional websites)

          Iaen Mor
          Ansteorra


          >From: "Bruce R. Gordon" <obsidian@...>
          >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] What constitutes a period bow?
          >Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:20:00 -0500
          >
          >Greetings
          > I haven't done detailed research in the area, but I have wandered through
          >some sources. Nothing that I've seen suggests that flatbows were common
          >in Europe within period. I agree that the technology precedes period
          >(vide Holmegaard, etc.), but it seems not to have had much influence
          >overall.
          > I've never heard of a period ELB as a composite, except perhaps in the
          >riser. Composites were known, of course; Huns, Mongols, Turks, they all
          >built composite bows - you find that sort of thing wherever archery is
          >regarded as useful, but ready sources of wood are scarce. And in any
          >event, hickory is a New World wood.
          > All of which tends to beg the question, of course. If you are trying to
          >build a bow for an Arts-and-Sciences competition, you will need to hit
          >the books very thoroughly, and then build a classic yew or ash longbow
          >with a "D" section (if you are doing a Western bow - an Eastern
          >horse-bow can use all sorts of materials, of course). But for use in
          >Period Division shoots, you will be held to a less rigorous standard.
          >
          >Cordially;
          >Forester Nigel FitzMaurice (Mid)
          >
          >jameswolfden wrote:
          >
          > > I was wondering what the different kingdoms consider a period bow. It
          > > seems to me that there is a dearth of period documentation on the
          > > different tiller of self-bows used in England and Europe. I might
          > > speculate that the Welsh elm bow was a flat bow rather than an
          > > english long bow but I can't find much documentation that actually
          > > describes in detail its shape and tiller.
          > >
          > > Would you consider a flat bow period? Would the shape of its handle
          > > make a difference? I tend to associate the narrow handle to be a more
          > > new world influence but bows like the holmegaard and meare heath show
          > > the style existed pre-period.
          > >
          > > Would you consider a hickory-backed ELB with horn nocks period or
          > > would you demand documentation that showed that the english used
          > > composite materials in their bow?
          > >
          > > How period do you have to be to be period?
          > >
          > > James Wolfden
          > > Lions Gate
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---8<---------------------------------------------
          > > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2001 by Baron Bows
          > > Need a bow? Check http://www.baronbows.com/
          > >
          > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >--
          >Ex Tenebra, Lux
          >
          >http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
          >
          >
          >---8<---------------------------------------------
          >Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2001 by Baron Bows
          >Need a bow? Check http://www.baronbows.com/
          >
          >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
          >
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >




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        • Eadric Anstapa
          ... It depends on what you want to use the bow for. If you are planning on entering it an A&S competition then it is what you can document as period material,
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 2, 2002
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            jameswolfden <jim_welch@...> said:
            >
            > How period do you have to be to be period?
            >

            It depends on what you want to use the bow for.

            If you are planning on entering it an A&S competition then it is what you can
            document as period material, techniques, and designs or what you can
            extrapolate from what is know of the above.

            For the IKAC period division it should be period "style" equipment using
            nothing modern that would give an advantage over someone using 100% period
            design and materials. A hickory backed bow would certainly be allowed as it
            would not give an unfair advantage.

            Regards,

            --
            Lord Eadric Anstapa
            Coastal Regional Archery Marshal, Ansteorra
            eadric@...
          • Co and Barbara tenBroek
            Well now I have built now 3 bows, all are wood all are Hickory. 1 is an ELB design I entered in an A&S contest, it has horn nocks, is slightly longer than six
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 2, 2002
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              Well now I have built now 3 bows, all are wood all are Hickory. 1 is an ELB
              design I entered in an A&S contest, it has horn nocks, is slightly longer
              than six feet from tip to tip, and draws about 145LBS @31 inches when braced
              at 6 inches. A friend of mine who saw the bows in the Mary Rose Museum
              could not tell the difference. I have 2 flat bows from hickory, and am
              currently working on an Andaman style bow.

              What makes a bow period? Is it made from natural materials? Is it based on
              a pre 1600 design? If non natural materials are used can an oberserver tell
              the difference? As long as the answers to the first 2 are yes and the
              second is no, I would say you have a period style bow, and depending on how
              accurate you were you should shoot it every chance you get, and maybe enter
              it into an A&S contest.


              Best of luck,
              Jean-Michel
            • eulenhorst@juno.com
              I don t have my sources readily to hand but I seem to recall reading that the Vikings used a short, flat bow made of oak to great effect. As their primary
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 2, 2002
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                I don't have my sources readily to hand but I seem to recall reading that
                the Vikings used a short, flat bow made of oak to great effect. As their
                primary period of raiding was roughly 7th to 11th century it would
                certainly be period.

                In service to the dream,
                Carolus von Eulenhorst
                eulenhorst@...

                On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:20:00 -0500 "Bruce R. Gordon" <obsidian@...>
                writes:
                > Greetings
                > I haven't done detailed research in the area, but I have
                > wandered through
                > some sources. Nothing that I've seen suggests that flatbows were
                > common
                > in Europe within period. I agree that the technology precedes period
                >
                > (vide Holmegaard, etc.), but it seems not to have had much influence
                >
                > overall.
                > I've never heard of a period ELB as a composite, except
                > perhaps in the
                > riser. Composites were known, of course; Huns, Mongols, Turks, they
                > all
                > built composite bows - you find that sort of thing wherever archery
                > is
                > regarded as useful, but ready sources of wood are scarce. And in any
                >
                > event, hickory is a New World wood.
                > All of which tends to beg the question, of course. If you
                > are trying to
                > build a bow for an Arts-and-Sciences competition, you will need to
                > hit
                > the books very thoroughly, and then build a classic yew or ash
                > longbow
                > with a "D" section (if you are doing a Western bow - an Eastern
                > horse-bow can use all sorts of materials, of course). But for use in
                >
                > Period Division shoots, you will be held to a less rigorous
                > standard.
                >
                > Cordially;
                > Forester Nigel FitzMaurice (Mid)
                >
                > snip <
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              • eulenhorst@juno.com
                My reading indicates that Italian yew was the preferred wood in period because of its consistent fine grained growth. Some of the best documentation is
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 2, 2002
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                  My reading indicates that Italian yew was the preferred wood in period
                  because of its consistent fine grained growth. Some of the best
                  documentation is indirect and can be obtained from the statutes
                  regulating bowyers and the customs records for imports. Merchants were
                  required to bring with them certain numbers of bow staves of specified
                  proportions of woods for the King's armories whenever they docked in an
                  English port.

                  In service to the dream,
                  Carolus von Eulenhorst
                  eulenhorst@...

                  On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:15:33 +0000 "john moore" <iaenmor@...>
                  writes:
                  > Nigel, on this I would have to disagree with you on this. In general
                  > most
                  > European bows were based on a flatbow design. The long bow that we
                  > know of
                  > is pretty much limited to the welsh and english. Most good sources
                  > in
                  > england will even go so far as to say that they are one and the
                  > same. The
                  > thing to remember is that there are only two good sources of yew in
                  > Europe,
                  > England and Spain, the spanish being considered the better. The
                  > lack of
                  > good wood on the European mainland was one of the contributing
                  > factors to
                  > the rise of the crossbows prominence. Ash is a good substitute but
                  > one must
                  > remember that the dearth of material about ELB are from the Mary
                  > Rose.
                  > There is not enough documentation as the bows did not survive the
                  > years. So
                  > one could not say, that a ELB has to be just Yew or Ash. I do agree
                  > that no
                  > matter what you build it should have excellent documentation, but do
                  > not
                  > limit it to only the ELB. Flatbows, Hornbows and Sinew-backed bows
                  > were
                  > common in period.(Check out some of the Scandinavian traditional
                  > websites)
                  >
                  > Iaen Mor
                  > Ansteorra
                  ________________________________________________________________
                  GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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                • Evian Blackthorn
                  Greetings list, In 1188, a half Welsh - half Norman living in England knew of and wrote about at least four different materials being used for bows. They were:
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 2, 2002
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                    Greetings list,

                    In 1188, a half Welsh - half Norman living in England
                    knew of and wrote about at least four different materials
                    being used for bows. They were: horn, ivory, yew, and elm.
                    This person was named Giraldus, and wrote about the bows of
                    elm used by the 'Venta' of Wales, as opposed to bows of
                    horn, ivory or yew. There are no details given in relation
                    to the shape of these or other bows. There is no information
                    given about whether the materials were used individually, or
                    were used as a composite material. But this is only a small
                    area of the known world of that time, although Giraldus was
                    familiar with sizable areas of England, France and Italy,
                    having lived in all three countries, as well as having been
                    raised in Wales and having visited Ireland. He gives no
                    details about where the other three materials other than the
                    elm of the Welsh was used for bows.

                    I don't know if Carolus is right about Italian yew being
                    the prefered yew in period England, but I do know that there
                    were extensive yew growths around the shores of Lake Geneva,
                    in what is now the Haut-Savoie departement of France,
                    formerly part of the Duchy of Savoy, so at least yew grew in
                    Italy in period, as well as Spain and England. I sure won't
                    argue about it with him, as he is normally right in his
                    statements and can back them up with documentation. However,
                    Carolus failed to make the distinctintion I did about period
                    ENGLAND, though he does refer us indirectly to English
                    records and statutes. Or at least I assume he was referring
                    to English records, as he directly referred to English
                    ports. Other areas of Europe used other woods, and had bows
                    other than the 'classic' English long bow in 'period'. Plus,
                    several areas of South, Central and Southern North America
                    were known and extensively explored before 1600 by the
                    Spanish. So even some 'native' american bows can be
                    'period'. Most asiatic bows in use before 1600 can also be
                    included as 'period' in the SCA.

                    I have no information on hickory being used for bows
                    before 1600, but hickory is not just a native American wood.
                    It is also native to Eastern Asia, and fossil remains have
                    been found in Greenland, Iceland and even in Europe. But
                    basically, what Baron Ben said is correct.
                    >if you show up on the range with a bow without center
                    >cut arrow shelf and with proper arrows, you may shoot
                    >in the period division in the outlands (or most any other
                    >Kingdom). If you enter a bow in an A&S competition,
                    >be well prepared for many challenges on minutiae.
                    The only things I might want to add is that the bow should
                    be mostly wood, and you might run into a few people who
                    think that the ONLY truely 'period' bow is an ELB. They are
                    wrong, so don't let them buffalo you.

                    YIS
                    Evian Blackthorn of THE WEB
                    http://www.spider-strands.com
                    Editor, Bodkin and Bolt Magazine
                    http://www.dskonline.net/bodkin
                  • eulenhorst@juno.com
                    Thank you, Evian. Yes, I was referring to English references of the period. In service to the dream, Carolus von Eulenhorst eulenhorst@juno.com On Wed, 2 Jan
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 2, 2002
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                      Thank you, Evian. Yes, I was referring to English references of the
                      period.

                      In service to the dream,
                      Carolus von Eulenhorst
                      eulenhorst@...

                      On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:17:10 -0600 "Evian Blackthorn" <theweb@...>
                      writes:
                      > Greetings list,
                      >
                      > In 1188, a half Welsh - half Norman living in England
                      > knew of and wrote about at least four different materials
                      > being used for bows. They were: horn, ivory, yew, and elm.
                      > This person was named Giraldus, and wrote about the bows of
                      > elm used by the 'Venta' of Wales, as opposed to bows of
                      > horn, ivory or yew. There are no details given in relation
                      > to the shape of these or other bows. There is no information
                      > given about whether the materials were used individually, or
                      > were used as a composite material. But this is only a small
                      > area of the known world of that time, although Giraldus was
                      > familiar with sizable areas of England, France and Italy,
                      > having lived in all three countries, as well as having been
                      > raised in Wales and having visited Ireland. He gives no
                      > details about where the other three materials other than the
                      > elm of the Welsh was used for bows.
                      >
                      > I don't know if Carolus is right about Italian yew being
                      > the preferred yew in period England, but I do know that there
                      > were extensive yew growths around the shores of Lake Geneva,
                      > in what is now the Haut-Savoie departement of France,
                      > formerly part of the Duchy of Savoy, so at least yew grew in
                      > Italy in period, as well as Spain and England. I sure won't
                      > argue about it with him, as he is normally right in his
                      > statements and can back them up with documentation. However,
                      > Carolus failed to make the distinctintion I did about period
                      > ENGLAND, though he does refer us indirectly to English
                      > records and statutes. Or at least I assume he was referring
                      > to English records, as he directly referred to English
                      > ports. Other areas of Europe used other woods, and had bows
                      > other than the 'classic' English long bow in 'period'. Plus,
                      > several areas of South, Central and Southern North America
                      > were known and extensively explored before 1600 by the
                      > Spanish. So even some 'native' american bows can be
                      > 'period'. Most asiatic bows in use before 1600 can also be
                      > included as 'period' in the SCA.
                      >
                      > I have no information on hickory being used for bows
                      > before 1600, but hickory is not just a native American wood.
                      > It is also native to Eastern Asia, and fossil remains have
                      > been found in Greenland, Iceland and even in Europe. But
                      > basically, what Baron Ben said is correct.
                      > >if you show up on the range with a bow without center
                      > >cut arrow shelf and with proper arrows, you may shoot
                      > >in the period division in the outlands (or most any other
                      > >Kingdom). If you enter a bow in an A&S competition,
                      > >be well prepared for many challenges on minutiae.
                      > The only things I might want to add is that the bow should
                      > be mostly wood, and you might run into a few people who
                      > think that the ONLY truly 'period' bow is an ELB. They are
                      > wrong, so don't let them buffalo you.
                      >
                      > YIS
                      > Evian Blackthorn of THE WEB
                      ________________________________________________________________
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