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Re: [SCA-Archery] Thumb rings

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  • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
    Greetings Everbody, (snipped from an earlier posting) From: pkjdw@hotmail.com (James De Warrenne) A moving part?!?! A thumbring is NOT a mechanical device
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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      Greetings Everbody,
      (snipped from an earlier posting)

      From: pkjdw@... (James De Warrenne)
      "A moving part?!?! A thumbring is NOT a mechanical device in any way
      shape or form. All it does is allow the string to be held on it (not
      directly to flesh) and then protect the thumb on release. Just like a
      finger tab does for a two or three finger draw.
      James"

      YUP! What he just said. I don't use a thumbring, and I have no interest
      in ever using one, but , I gotta respect those people that do. It is no
      more mechanical than a tab or a glove. There are some archers that feel
      that it gives an unfair advantage, and to them I ask: "Have you ever
      tried using one?". It has to be like teaching yourself to shoot all over
      again from page 1. To those people that have gone that route because it
      fits their personnas, my hat is off to you.
      -Geoffrei


      http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
    • eulenhorst@juno.com
      Technically, as the string is held by the ring and not the fingers it is a release aid and works as a mechanical cam. They are banned from many mundane
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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        Technically, as the string is held by the ring and not the fingers it is
        a "release aid" and works as a mechanical cam. They are banned from many
        mundane competitions on this basis. However, as they are documented as
        period for our use we allow them. I would be hard pressed, however, to
        allow them on my competition range by someone shooting an ELB in an
        otherwise distinctly western form.

        In service to the dream,
        Carolus von Eulenhorst
        eulenhorst@...

        On Sat, 01 Dec 2001 23:34:47 +0000 "James De Warrenne"
        <pkjdw@...> writes:
        > Greetings all
        >
        > <snippage>
        >
        >
        > Mechanical releases are also used
        > >with handbows -- just not in the SCA because they aren't period.
        > >Unless you count thumbrings. Which are another moving part... =)
        >
        > A moving part?!?! A thumbring is NOT a mechanical device in any way
        > shape
        > or form. All it does is allow the string to be held on it (not
        > directly to
        > flesh) and then protect the thumb on release. Just like a finger
        > tab does
        > for a two or three finger draw.
        >
        > James
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      • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
        Dear Caroulos and all, I have several friends that shoot by thumb and use a tab on their thumb instead of a thumbring. I see no difference mechanically between
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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          Dear Caroulos and all,
          I have several friends that shoot by thumb and use a tab on their
          thumb instead of a thumbring. I see no difference mechanically between
          the two. A thumbring is nothing more than a rigid protection for the
          thumb, like a tab or glove, it involves no moving parts but for those
          the good Lord gave you. Getting one that fits and works properly without
          hurting your finger is the big problem, and that is why so many have
          resorted to the thumb tab.
          As for it being used with ELB or BLBS, no, of course not! Entirely
          wrong discipline for the bow. As wrong if we want to get REALLY
          technical, as using a European two or three fingered draw with an
          asiatic or Middle Eastern recurve. I applaud those brave souls that want
          to use a thumb release to be in period with their personnas. I think
          that instead of admonishing them for using something "mechanical", we
          ought to spot them a few points, because I've seen very few scadians
          that have gone ths route that could actually hit anything. (I said very
          few, Nicetas). Have you ever seen a kyudo glove? Talk about an
          engineering feat.....yet, it's still just a glove.
          -Geoffrei


          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
        • James De Warrenne
          Greetings again. Technically, the string is held on top of the ring, but it in turn is being held by the thumb locked into the forefinger. It is not being
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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            Greetings again.

            Technically, the string is held on top of the ring, but it in turn is being
            held by the thumb locked into the forefinger. It is not being held by the
            ring, still by human bone and muscle.(The ONE finger hooked around the
            thumb) Having tried one, I know that it is a different form, hurts if you
            don't have a proper sized ring and tires out the thumb and forefinger. (I
            now shoot with a "western" two finger draw.)

            Those in mundane competitions who have banned them based on "release aid"
            and "mechanical cam" have obviously never tried one, or they would VERY
            quickly realize that it takes as much human muscle to hold it as any western
            form. Let alone asiatic style is an overdraw. (Have you ever seen a
            Mongolian bow shot?)

            Look at the site www.atarn.org
            They have a very nice selection of photos of asiatic style shooting and have
            som einformation on the thumbring.

            But, I do agree that using a thumb ring with an ELB is a bit out of place.
            Now, if they have a horsebow or other asiatic type bow and are shooting
            asiatic style, I say more power to them.

            James

            >Technically, as the string is held by the ring and not the fingers it is
            >a "release aid" and works as a mechanical cam. They are banned from many
            > mundane competitions on this basis. However, as they are documented as
            >period for our use we allow them. I would be hard pressed, however, to
            >allow them on my competition range by someone shooting an ELB in an
            >otherwise distinctly western form.
            >
            >In service to the dream,
            >Carolus von Eulenhorst
            >eulenhorst@...
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
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          • wyvern@megahits.com
            ... Of course it is. There s nothing wrong with that. Why so defensive? ... Yes and no. You could argue that a glove or tab just protects the fingers --
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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              > A moving part?!?! A thumbring is NOT a mechanical device in any way
              > shape or form. All it does is allow the string to be held on it (not

              Of course it is. There's nothing wrong with that. Why so defensive?

              > directly to flesh) and then protect the thumb on release. Just like a
              > finger tab does for a two or three finger draw.

              Yes and no. You could argue that a glove or tab just protects the
              fingers -- just like a callous would if we shot more often. A thumb
              ring, if my understanding is accurate, not only acts to protect the
              thumb but provides a clean edge from which a more crisp release
              is possible. That's a "mechanical device" which provides a suitable
              ridge across the thumb which nature didn't provide.

              (Mongolian style shooters will please correct me if my
              interpretation of how a thumb rings works is in error.)

              YIS,
              Macsen
            • wyvern@megahits.com
              ... Keep in mind that a mechanical device doesn t necesarily have to have moving parts. ... Has anyone done so? I know I have made the observation that
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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                > thumb, like a tab or glove, it involves no moving parts but for those
                > the good Lord gave you. Getting one that fits and works properly

                Keep in mind that a "mechanical device" doesn't necesarily have to
                have moving parts.

                > think that instead of admonishing them for using something
                > "mechanical", we ought to spot them a few points, because I've seen

                Has anyone done so? I know I have made the observation that
                thumbrings are technically a mechanical device, but I've certainly
                never bothered anyone for using one.

                YIS,
                Macsen
              • wyvern@megahits.com
                ... Thank you for that bit of confirmation. =) YIS, Macsen
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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                  > Technically, as the string is held by the ring and not the fingers it
                  > is a "release aid" and works as a mechanical cam.

                  Thank you for that bit of confirmation. =)

                  YIS,
                  Macsen
                • Kazimierz Verkmastare
                  Mongolian shooter here (among other things) Took over 2 years of working before I could regularly hit something the size of a pieplate at 20 yards (still can t
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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                    Mongolian shooter here (among other things)

                    Took over 2 years of working before I could regularly hit something the size of a pieplate at 20 yards (still can't do it every time, but am getting somewhat close). I started getting better when I realized that the release efficiency was in the finger that hooks over the thumb, not in the thumb ring.

                    The thumb ring can be made of many materials. Metal, stone, horn, bone, even leather. Most didn't have notches or grooves for a string, though some did. I have several, everything from a solid gold falcon head thumbring (anniversary gift from my wife 4 years ago, and the thing that got me started shooting mongolian) to my daily workhorse homemade water buffalo horn ring.

                    It is as far as I have been able to discern a purely protective device - it has no real effect on the speed of release. The thumb by itself is completely unable to hold a full drawn bowstring, and so the moment the finger is unhooked, the thumb very rapidly and extremely efficiently gets out of the way, with or without a ring. Actually, I prefer shooting an eastern release without a ring, and do if it is only for a few shots. So to me the ring is an invention of necessity, not an aid in release speed or efficiency.

                    Kaz


                    *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                    On 12/2/2001 at 9:38 PM wyvern@... wrote:

                    >> A moving part?!?! A thumbring is NOT a mechanical device in any way
                    >> shape or form. All it does is allow the string to be held on it (not
                    >
                    >Of course it is. There's nothing wrong with that. Why so defensive?
                    >
                    >> directly to flesh) and then protect the thumb on release. Just like a
                    >> finger tab does for a two or three finger draw.
                    >
                    >Yes and no. You could argue that a glove or tab just protects the
                    >fingers -- just like a callous would if we shot more often. A thumb
                    >ring, if my understanding is accurate, not only acts to protect the
                    >thumb but provides a clean edge from which a more crisp release
                    >is possible. That's a "mechanical device" which provides a suitable
                    >ridge across the thumb which nature didn't provide.
                    >
                    >(Mongolian style shooters will please correct me if my
                    >interpretation of how a thumb rings works is in error.)
                    >
                    >YIS,
                    >Macsen
                    >
                    >
                    >---8<---------------------------------------------
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                    >Need a bow? Check http://www.baronbows.com/
                    >
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                    >
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                  • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                    Greetings to the list, Thanks Kaz! Finally, a voice of practiced wisdom. I had tried using a thumbring once just to see what it was like, shooting off the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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                      Greetings to the list,
                      Thanks Kaz! Finally, a voice of practiced wisdom.
                      I had tried using a thumbring once just to see what it was like,
                      shooting off the other side of the bow, and I felt like somebody was
                      asking me to scratch my ear with my elbow. In the strictest sense of the
                      word mechanical, I suppose that a thumbring would be mechanical and so
                      would a tab, a glove and a finger. But let's not cloud the issue. We all
                      know what we mean when we say mechanical. We are referring to the
                      specific type of moving parts mechanical devices such as the trigger
                      releases used by compound shooters. These types of devices are clearly
                      not allowed in handbow shooting in the SCA,except in extreme cases of
                      physically challenged individuals and then only with the permission of
                      the marshallate. The thumbring is just a hard tab to protect the thumb.
                      -Geoffrei

                      From: kaz@... (Kazimierz Verkmastare)
                      Took over 2 years of working before I could regularly hit something the
                      size of a pieplate at 20 yards (still can't do it every time, but am
                      getting somewhat close). I started getting better when I realized that
                      the release efficiency was in the finger that hooks over the thumb, not
                      in the thumb ring.
                      The thumb ring can be made of many materials. Metal, stone, horn, bone,
                      even leather. Most didn't have notches or grooves for a string, (snip)
                      It is as far as I have been able to discern a purely protective device -
                      it has no real effect on the speed of release. The thumb by itself is
                      completely unable to hold a full drawn bowstring, and so the moment the
                      finger is unhooked, the thumb very rapidly and extremely efficiently
                      gets out of the way, with or without a ring. Actually, I prefer shooting
                      an eastern release without a ring, and do if it is only for a few shots.
                      So to me the ring is an invention of necessity, not an aid in release
                      speed or efficiency.
                      Kaz


                      http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                    • Marko Peussa
                      Hi all, Some notes on the kyudo glove. At least in Heki Ryu Insai Ha school of Kyudo, the glove has a thumb ring inside the glove. It s made of wood and
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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                        Hi all,

                        Some notes on the kyudo glove.

                        At least in Heki Ryu Insai Ha school of Kyudo, the glove has a 'thumb ring'
                        inside the glove. It's made of wood and covered with leather. The difference
                        to a normal thumb ring is that this one completely encloses the thumb. It's
                        like a wooden thumb around your thumb. The string is held in a groove at the
                        base of the wooden thumb. The groove is perpendicular to the axis of the
                        thumb and the width of the groove is less than the string width. The angle
                        of the wall of the groove is 45 degrees to the axis of the thumb. Two
                        fingers cross the thumb and lock the grip. Two fingers apply pressure on the
                        thumb from the top by the first joints only. It is very desirable to
                        maintain only minimum pressure on the thumb. In target archery, one
                        typically uses 'giriko', which is powdered resin, to achieve high friction
                        between fingers and thumb. Position of the thumb relative to arrow is also
                        very important for a good release. Not to mention what the right hand does
                        at the moment of release. The right forearm rotates around the axis of the
                        thumb. If you do the things correctly, it doesn't hurt at all.

                        All this is next to impossible explain by mail only, but I hope you get the
                        impression that the shape of the wooden thumb, groove, way of gripping and
                        other details are very important if one aims to achieve any consistency in
                        hitting. A tiny mistake in any of these spoils your accuracy.

                        Of course the glove improves shooting accuracy. That is why it is being
                        used. However, the effect is neglible until you know how to correctly shoot
                        with the glove. This takes years and it's possible that you never learn it.

                        The 'typical' accuracy that one can get with Heki Ryu Insai Ha style is
                        something like this: From a 30 ft distance you could hit a 36 cm (approx. 14
                        inch) diameter target with 90 out of 100 arrows. This was the criteria for
                        an ok archer, as specified by the late master teacher Inagaki of the school.
                        Even this requires years of hard study.

                        Yep, not an easy way to shoot.

                        Klasi-San


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <jrosswebb1@...>
                        To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 02:21
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Thumb rings


                        > Dear Caroulos and all,
                        > I have several friends that shoot by thumb and use a tab on their
                        > thumb instead of a thumbring. I see no difference mechanically between
                        > the two. A thumbring is nothing more than a rigid protection for the
                        > thumb, like a tab or glove, it involves no moving parts but for those
                        > the good Lord gave you. Getting one that fits and works properly without
                        > hurting your finger is the big problem, and that is why so many have
                        > resorted to the thumb tab.
                        > As for it being used with ELB or BLBS, no, of course not! Entirely
                        > wrong discipline for the bow. As wrong if we want to get REALLY
                        > technical, as using a European two or three fingered draw with an
                        > asiatic or Middle Eastern recurve. I applaud those brave souls that want
                        > to use a thumb release to be in period with their personnas. I think
                        > that instead of admonishing them for using something "mechanical", we
                        > ought to spot them a few points, because I've seen very few scadians
                        > that have gone ths route that could actually hit anything. (I said very
                        > few, Nicetas). Have you ever seen a kyudo glove? Talk about an
                        > engineering feat.....yet, it's still just a glove.
                        > -Geoffrei
                        >
                        >
                        > http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                        >
                        >
                        > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                        > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2001 by Baron Bows
                        > Need a bow? Check http://www.baronbows.com/
                        >
                        > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Marko Peussa
                        Whoops, I meant to say 30 YARDS distance. It s not THAT difficult, he hee. Klasi-San ... From: Marko Peussa To:
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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                          Whoops, I meant to say 30 YARDS distance. It's not THAT difficult, he hee.

                          Klasi-San

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Marko Peussa <marko.peussa@...>
                          To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 07:43
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Thumb rings


                          > Hi all,
                          >
                          > Some notes on the kyudo glove.
                          >
                          > At least in Heki Ryu Insai Ha school of Kyudo, the glove has a 'thumb
                          ring'
                          > inside the glove. It's made of wood and covered with leather. The
                          difference
                          > to a normal thumb ring is that this one completely encloses the thumb.
                          It's
                          > like a wooden thumb around your thumb. The string is held in a groove at
                          the
                          > base of the wooden thumb. The groove is perpendicular to the axis of the
                          > thumb and the width of the groove is less than the string width. The angle
                          > of the wall of the groove is 45 degrees to the axis of the thumb. Two
                          > fingers cross the thumb and lock the grip. Two fingers apply pressure on
                          the
                          > thumb from the top by the first joints only. It is very desirable to
                          > maintain only minimum pressure on the thumb. In target archery, one
                          > typically uses 'giriko', which is powdered resin, to achieve high friction
                          > between fingers and thumb. Position of the thumb relative to arrow is also
                          > very important for a good release. Not to mention what the right hand does
                          > at the moment of release. The right forearm rotates around the axis of the
                          > thumb. If you do the things correctly, it doesn't hurt at all.
                          >
                          > All this is next to impossible explain by mail only, but I hope you get
                          the
                          > impression that the shape of the wooden thumb, groove, way of gripping and
                          > other details are very important if one aims to achieve any consistency in
                          > hitting. A tiny mistake in any of these spoils your accuracy.
                          >
                          > Of course the glove improves shooting accuracy. That is why it is being
                          > used. However, the effect is neglible until you know how to correctly
                          shoot
                          > with the glove. This takes years and it's possible that you never learn
                          it.
                          >
                          > The 'typical' accuracy that one can get with Heki Ryu Insai Ha style is
                          > something like this: From a 30 ft distance you could hit a 36 cm (approx.
                          14
                          > inch) diameter target with 90 out of 100 arrows. This was the criteria for
                          > an ok archer, as specified by the late master teacher Inagaki of the
                          school.
                          > Even this requires years of hard study.
                          >
                          > Yep, not an easy way to shoot.
                          >
                          > Klasi-San
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: <jrosswebb1@...>
                          > To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 02:21
                          > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Thumb rings
                          >
                          >
                          > > Dear Caroulos and all,
                          > > I have several friends that shoot by thumb and use a tab on their
                          > > thumb instead of a thumbring. I see no difference mechanically between
                          > > the two. A thumbring is nothing more than a rigid protection for the
                          > > thumb, like a tab or glove, it involves no moving parts but for those
                          > > the good Lord gave you. Getting one that fits and works properly without
                          > > hurting your finger is the big problem, and that is why so many have
                          > > resorted to the thumb tab.
                          > > As for it being used with ELB or BLBS, no, of course not! Entirely
                          > > wrong discipline for the bow. As wrong if we want to get REALLY
                          > > technical, as using a European two or three fingered draw with an
                          > > asiatic or Middle Eastern recurve. I applaud those brave souls that want
                          > > to use a thumb release to be in period with their personnas. I think
                          > > that instead of admonishing them for using something "mechanical", we
                          > > ought to spot them a few points, because I've seen very few scadians
                          > > that have gone ths route that could actually hit anything. (I said very
                          > > few, Nicetas). Have you ever seen a kyudo glove? Talk about an
                          > > engineering feat.....yet, it's still just a glove.
                          > > -Geoffrei
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                          > > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2001 by Baron Bows
                          > > Need a bow? Check http://www.baronbows.com/
                          > >
                          > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                          > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2001 by Baron Bows
                          > Need a bow? Check http://www.baronbows.com/
                          >
                          > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • eulenhorst@juno.com
                          No, Geoffrei, A thumbring is not simply protection for the thumb. It fits over the thumb and forms a lever held by the index finger. The string is held in
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 2, 2001
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                            No, Geoffrei,
                            A thumbring is not simply "protection" for the thumb. It fits over the
                            thumb and forms a lever held by the index finger. The string is held in
                            the gap between the finger and the thumb by the ring. This allows much
                            more force to be held than with the fingers alone; a point especially
                            important when the short bow lengths of the bows the ring are typically
                            used with are considered. These bows are of composite construction and
                            not subject to the "string following" of an all wood bow. The thumb ring
                            then allows the bow to be held longer and sighted more carefully. This
                            is the same reason for the use of modern release aids. Releasing the
                            lever allows the quick and smooth release of the string.

                            I do not admonish anyone in our society for learning the skills of the
                            thumb ring. Far from it, I applaud their efforts and encourage them to
                            do so as I stated in briefer form in my earlier post. Nonetheless, it is
                            a mechanical component and needs to be recognized as such.

                            In service to the dream,
                            Carolus von Eulenhorst
                            eulenhorst@...

                            On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:21:59 -0500 (EST) jrosswebb1@... writes:
                            > Dear Caroulos and all,
                            > I have several friends that shoot by thumb and use a tab on
                            > their
                            > thumb instead of a thumbring. I see no difference mechanically
                            > between
                            > the two. A thumbring is nothing more than a rigid protection for
                            > the
                            > thumb, like a tab or glove, it involves no moving parts but for
                            > those
                            > the good Lord gave you. Getting one that fits and works properly
                            > without
                            > hurting your finger is the big problem, and that is why so many
                            > have
                            > resorted to the thumb tab.
                            > As for it being used with ELB or BLBS, no, of course not!
                            > Entirely
                            > wrong discipline for the bow. As wrong if we want to get REALLY
                            > technical, as using a European two or three fingered draw with an
                            > asiatic or Middle Eastern recurve. I applaud those brave souls that
                            > want
                            > to use a thumb release to be in period with their personnas. I
                            > think
                            > that instead of admonishing them for using something "mechanical",
                            > we
                            > ought to spot them a few points, because I've seen very few
                            > scadians
                            > that have gone ths route that could actually hit anything. (I said
                            > very
                            > few, Nicetas). Have you ever seen a kyudo glove? Talk about an
                            > engineering feat.....yet, it's still just a glove.
                            > -Geoffrei
                            ________________________________________________________________
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