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Re: [SCA-Archery] Apples and Oranges?

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  • Ken Taylor
    Dont you think the applied physics of the two are quite different? They REALLY are. Comparing a longbow, a compound and a recurve is apples and different
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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      Dont you think the applied physics of the two are
      quite different? They REALLY are. Comparing a longbow,
      a compound and a recurve is apples and different
      apples, NOT a Crossbow and (any) bow Handbow.

      (and please dont tell me about the "they both (xbow
      and bow) get the arrow/bolt to the target" speech. A
      motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
      but do it quite differently.)

      :)

      > > ONLY thing they really have in common is wind
      > > factor... that I can see anyhow. It's like
      > comparing a
      > > rifle and a pistol... sorta. Either way, it's
      > apples
      > > and oranges.
      > >
      >
      > Actually, it isn't. It greatly depends on the person
      > using the weapon, more
      > the weapon itself. > removed]
      >
      >


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    • wyvern@megahits.com
      ... And yet they both rely on the same principles of internal combustion to do it. They re just different applications of the same basic technology. Ditto
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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        > (and please dont tell me about the "they both (xbow
        > and bow) get the arrow/bolt to the target" speech. A
        > motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
        > but do it quite differently.)

        And yet they both rely on the same principles of internal
        combustion to do it. They're just different applications of the same
        basic technology. Ditto handbow and crossbow -- they're more
        alike than they are different.

        YIS,
        Macsen
      • Ken Taylor
        applications of the same basic technology HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a hand bow. C mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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          "applications of the same basic technology"

          HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
          hand bow.

          C'mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
          they are if you like if it makes you feel
          better.(sorry bout the sarcasm, Im frustrated)

          Have you ever taken a physics class? (Im not busting
          on you, its a serious question) If youre an engineer
          also you may understand where Im going with this.

          Im done.. lol... I dont want to make anyone mad at
          me.. sorry.



          > And yet they both rely on the same principles of
          > internal
          > combustion to do it. They're just different
          > applications of the same
          > basic technology. Ditto handbow and crossbow --
          > they're more
          > alike than they are different.
          >
          > YIS,
          > Macsen
          >
          >
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        • wyvern@megahits.com
          ... And yet the same basic principles are at work. The central concept of both forms of the weapon is to utilize the stored energy of a bent bow to propel an
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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            > "applications of the same basic technology"
            >
            > HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
            > hand bow.

            And yet the same basic principles are at work. The central
            concept of both forms of the weapon is to utilize the stored energy
            of a bent bow to propel an arrow. Everything else is just
            embellishment of that same central principle. The only notable
            difference between the two is that crossbows add a fixed draw
            length and mechanically assisted release into the equation. (That's
            one or two extra moving parts. Mechanical releases are also used
            with handbows -- just not in the SCA because they aren't period.
            Unless you count thumbrings. Which are another moving part... =)

            > C'mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
            > they are if you like if it makes you feel better.(sorry bout
            > the sarcasm, Im frustrated)

            It's not about me "feeling better," it's about recognizing the simple
            facts of the matter.

            > Have you ever taken a physics class? (Im not busting
            > on you, its a serious question) If youre an engineer
            > also you may understand where Im going with this.

            Yes, in fact I studied engineering. I also shoot both longbows and
            crossbows, make arrows and bolts, and build/repair crossbows.
            That's why I know for a fact that the basic principles of operation of
            both are identical.

            > Im done.. lol... I dont want to make anyone mad at
            > me.. sorry.

            Don't feel bad. Irrational fear of crossbows is period. ;)

            YIS,
            Macsen
          • atruemark@aol.com
            In an earlier post I stated that the crossbow provided an unfair advantage due to its fixed string position and mechanical release. I would have been more
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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              In an earlier post I stated that the crossbow provided an "unfair advantage"
              due to its fixed string position and mechanical release. I would have been
              more accurate to have stated the crossbow provides an "unfair mechanical
              advantage," since I would be the first to acknowledge that shooting a period
              style crossbow requires every bit as much knowledge, expertise, practice and
              cussing as a handbow, just in different areas than the handbow.

              For example, beyond the basics of shooting a handbow well, almost the
              entirety of what I practice is to achieve the "mechanical" results that the
              crossbow possesses as part of its design; a consistent draw length (anchor
              point) and "mechanical" release (the non-effort that gets my fingers off the
              string in the least invasive manner).
              Truly, when my arrows do not go exactly where I intended I can almost always
              point to one of these two factors as being the culprit - either I "let down"
              or "crept" or my release was less than perfect. "Aim," in my belief (and
              teaching) is the least of what directs my arrows to the proper part of the
              target - Good form, including, most importantly a consistent anchor and
              clean release, dictates the eventual placement of the arrow.

              Conversly, when shooting a period crossbow, it everything about where the
              butt of the bow is placed on (or in) my shoulder, how the bow is canted, how
              I drew the string back, how the bolts are made and balanced, how I am
              breathing when I actuate the mechanical release aid (trigger), etc. Again,
              my practices become about being as "mechanical" as possible, doing all the
              right things all the time, consistently.

              Having said all that - and acknowledging the "balancing" factor of the
              quicker rate of fire for the handbow vs the crossbow (with the exception of a
              few crossbow shooters who have figured that one out as well) in the speed
              rounds - I will still state that crossbows should not compete heads up
              against handbows. It is historically accurate that crossbows supplanted
              handbows in Europe as the "shaft thrower" of choice, only in turn to be
              supplanted by the firearm. It is easier to learn to shoot the crossbow
              effectively than it is to learn to shoot the handbow to the same level,
              primarily due to its inherent "unfair mechanical advantages."

              All the above is my personal opinion. It is based on what I can do with a
              handbow and what I have learned to do with a period style crossbow over the
              past five years. I invoke Master Ailean's name here as testimony that I
              enjoy the crossbow and so am not tainted by a dislike of the apparatus - I
              merely point out the differences.

              Andras Truemark, OGGS
              Ludicrous Bowman (Handbow)
              Grandmaster Bowman (Crossbow)


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            • Howpatn@cs.com
              ... Both motorcycles and cars operate on the same principle, converting the heat of burning fuel into mechanical energy. The major, other than size, difference
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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                > motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
                > but do it quite differently.)
                >

                Both motorcycles and cars operate on the same principle, converting the heat
                of burning fuel into mechanical energy. The major, other than size,
                difference between the motorcycle and cars is the number of wheels. I am
                licensed to drive both and Class A vehicles too.

                With crossbows and bows the major difference is the in the mechanics not the
                propulsion. Both use a bent stick as the propulsion device. It is still the
                shooter more than the weapon that is the deciding factor.

                Howard


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              • Howpatn@cs.com
                ... You see only one mechanical moving part. That s the difference. //You can go on thinking they are if you like if it makes you feel better.(sorry bout the
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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                  > HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
                  > hand bow.
                  >
                  >

                  You see only one mechanical moving part. That's the difference.

                  //You can go on thinking
                  they are if you like if it makes you feel
                  better.(sorry bout the sarcasm, Im frustrated)//

                  Don't get frustrated. This isn't worth an ulcer.

                  Howard




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