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Apples and Oranges: The Response

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  • cwilson@mhmh.org
    Crossbow. Recurve. Longbow. Horsebow. Each is different is many technical ways. What makes difference in competition is not the equipment, but the skill of
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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      Crossbow. Recurve. Longbow. Horsebow. Each is different is many
      technical ways.

      What makes difference in competition is not the equipment, but the skill of
      the archer.

      All of the above suffer the same mechanical flaws...
      1. String Draw
      When you draw the string back, are you pulling evenly. On a crossbow,
      pulling one side a 1/8" more than the other can make a huge difference. On
      a handbow, pulling the string to the left or right and cause the arrow to
      fly funny as well.

      2. Nock Point
      If the crossbow string does not meet the bolt in the middle of the bolt, it
      will fly funny. If the nock on a handbow arrow is crooked, or the nock
      point on the string is wrong, the arrow will fly funny. If you don't draw
      back to the same nock point on your face, you cannot aim consistent. If
      you don't place your cheek on the stock at the same place everytime, you
      shoot inconsistently. If you don't hold a crossbow tight enough against
      your shoulder, the bow will jump.

      3. Release
      If a handbowman plucks the string, or pushes, whatever, the arrow flies
      funny. If the crossbowman punches the trigger instead of a smooth release
      the crossbow will move and the bolt will fly funny.

      It is ignorance of the minute details that can lead one to assume that each
      bow somehow has advantages and disadvantages when compared to other bow
      types.

      Recurves
      Longer power stroke than a crossbow, more efficiency in the limbs than a
      longbow, more sensitive to a bad hold and release. I read somewhere that a
      50# recurve is equivalent to a 70# longbow in power.

      Longbow
      Tend to be taller that most most bows, and thus has a very smooth release,
      but not as efficient as the recurve or horsebow. Very period for the SCA
      and (IMHO) has a more beautiful silhouette when drawn than a recurve.

      Crossbow
      Very sensitive to bow cant, shorter power stroke, the prod (most are steel)
      are very inefficient. My 90# crossbow only shoots 170 fps. My 30# recurve
      shoots 170 fps. Haven't measured my 34# longbow, yet.

      Horsebow
      Very efficient recurve design, great for flight shooting. This bow "let's
      up" a bit at full draw and probably one of the easiest bows I have ever
      shot. Very smooth draw, very smooth release, and the bow size tends to be
      smaller than a recurve.

      If you want to get to the brass tax of it, it is more unfair to allow an
      archer of 10 years experience compete against archers of 2 years
      experience. Robert Thorne is a ludicrous bowman with both crossbow and
      recurve, ask him if they are unfair to shoot against each other. Ask me if
      I enjoyed competing against Robert at no less than 5 events this year for
      valuable prizes and parting gifts.

      The previous was solely my opinion, but one gained from being involved in
      SCA archer for 4 years and over 7 years in the SCA in general. I tried to
      be a methodical as possible. The following is rant. Feel free to skip it.

      I put in 4 to 5 hours of practice a week this summer and I will NOT idly
      stand by and have some newbie tell me my crossbow is unfair. I have earned
      my skill, God has blessed my practice time with success, and by gum, I you
      think it's unfair, then practice and get better and stop complaining. In
      the future, I recommend that you be more respectful before spouting off
      claims that you cannot backup nor have a experience with. The last thing
      SCA archer needs in internal strife about which bow is unfair or better.
      You don't see heavy fighter claiming that it's unfair to fight a polearm
      with sword and board. Adapt! Live with it, and learn.

      -Lord Caedmon Wilson, who shoots with all bows and has fun
    • Scott L Hecathorn
      Well, I WAS going to stay out of this, but someone just had to bring me up. I shoot both a crossbow and a recurve and am currently having a longbow made for
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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        Well, I "WAS" going to stay out of this, but someone just had to bring me
        up. I shoot both a crossbow and a recurve and am currently having a
        longbow made for me. I will flat out agree that many of the competiotions
        most people shoot in the SCA are crossbow friendly. I will say though,
        that as a person that decided to shoot crossbow for the champions point
        at pennsic, I picked a bad year to do it!! There where so many targets
        where people shooting handbows had the better shot, the easier and more
        forgiving targets, and the options of doing better. I personally loved
        the shoot this year, and next year we might even win!! The shoot really
        did try to break off of the "one dominating" type of bow. My personal
        method of even playing fields is not by timed rounds, but unknown
        distance and roving ranges. I do these at my events and practices. Not
        only does this help with people who feel that a crossbow is better, it
        also helps people improve on there range guessing. To me, speed rounds
        just show people that can shoot fast. I am a very big promoter of shoot
        accuratly, then build up speed. If I can beat someone shooting my 5
        arrows to there 10, then who really has the advantage? And IMHO handbows
        have a greater number of advantages going on for them than many people
        think.

        When shooting a handbow, for closer targets you have the option to short
        draw the bow as opposed to the set draw a crossbow has. It is pretty
        funny watching crossbow shooters, like myself, who has a dead on aim at
        20yds. shoot something 8-12yds. away. Which clump of dirt should I aim
        at? Also as Caedmon mentioned, crossbows are almost merciless when it
        comes to tilting the bow further down your shoulder, slightly canting the
        bow to one side, drawing back more with one hand then the other. All
        these little things, along with a handfull more can make that "rifle with
        a string" just a 2x4 with a string. Ailen Mac an Daroch told me once that
        90% of crossbow scores happen before the bow even hits the range. Up keep
        can mean everything to a crossbow shooter. I have had to many occasion
        than I can count where my string blew up in the middle of shooting and I
        had to put a new one that wasn't quite as tight/loose/thickly served as
        the one that blew up. I also have had to quit shooting at two events
        because my prod snapped durinng a timed round. I have since then found
        out that my crossbow is overdrawing 3/4". With a handbow this 3/4" would
        mean butkas unless you're already about to pull the string off the bow in
        the first place. Handbow scores only get better with practice. There are
        exceptions, but most of us are not naturals that can pick up our bow
        after 6mo. and shoot like we were when we left off.

        Speed rounds- While crossbows are more accurate, because they have such
        slow shooting time, many crossbow shooters I know have a "spray and pray"
        attitude when it comes to speed rounds. Handbows are much faster to draw,
        less awkward to draw, and because of these slight advantages, handbow
        shooters can take a little more time to get that sure shot.

        Shooting ranges-Handbows are welcome on most if not all archery ranges. I
        say it this way because I have been to a range onetime that was so
        compound orientated that they had no idea what a recurve was. With
        crossbows, many insurance companies still consider them more like a rifle
        than a bow and therefore will not allow some ranges to allow crossbows to
        shoot. Also, some city ordinances won't even allow crossbows within city
        limits. So there is a big advantage for handbows.

        Moving around between targets. Big advantage for handbbows. Pennsic was a
        great example of this. The handbow shooters could stroll u pto the next
        target line and get there bearings while we crossbow shooters where run,
        draw shoot and run somemore hoping to beat the count to get our bearings.
        A rushed shoot is definatly challenging.

        About the only thing I can really say, to most people it does look like
        crossbows have by far the advantage, but thats only because the shoots
        are integrated. If you have problems shooting against the other form,
        talk with the marshal in charge and see if he can break up catagories,
        you'ld be surprised, many don't think about this until its brought to
        there attention, or don't shoot against them and enjoy the event as a
        whole.

        Robert Thorne
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      • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
        Okay, okay. So handbows are easier to shoot than crossbows? Nice spin. Of the Ludicrous Bowmen in the Knowne Worlde, how many of them won the distinction with
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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          Okay, okay. So handbows are easier to shoot than crossbows? Nice spin.
          Of the Ludicrous Bowmen in the Knowne Worlde, how many of them won the
          distinction with an unmarked handbow as opposed to a sighted crossbow or
          handbow with limb markings?
          I have nothing against crossbows, in fact, I own and shoot a few
          of them. They're interesting gadgets and if you like tinkering with
          gadgets and continually tweeking your gadgets, then the crossbow is for
          you. It's not personally my choice, but it's all good. But handbows
          easier than crossbows? I don't think so. But, good spin!
          I never shortdraw or overdraw my bow. For me,that would be bad
          form, and it does make a very big difference on the shot. It would
          confuse the memory of the wood in my bow. I don't want to confuse my
          bow, we work so well together, I like my bow, I want it to keep liking
          me.

          NEXT TOPIC: "Speed rounds for ballistas? Pros and Cons" ;-P

          Have a great weekend eveybody, let's keep the pot on slow simmer.
          Cheers,
          -Geoffrei


          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
        • Marko Peussa
          Impressive email from Robert. I m going to throw in some impressions from the Barony of Aarnimetsa (Finland, Europe), located in the northern part of the
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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            Impressive email from Robert.

            I'm going to throw in some impressions from the Barony of Aarnimetsa
            (Finland, Europe), located in the northern part of the Kingdon of
            Drachenwald.

            I have always wondered what it is going to be like when we have handbow and
            crossbow archers in the same competition. Who will win, and what about the
            aftermath? Finland is traditionally the home of the crossbow. This is
            because crossbow has been the bow for hunting, war and competitions for
            centuries. If you ask for a Finnish traditional bow, the answer is not
            likely to be longbow. It's crossbow. You may ask why. Just because Finland
            has always been a place with woods, more woods and then some. Guerrilla
            warfare was the name of the game in the middle ages in Finland and
            neighbourhood, therefore the crossbow. Shoot once, and disappear.

            It's quite surprising what the guys said. I mean the SCA archers here.

            They say, that shooting with the crossbow is too easy. There is no big
            challenge in hitting compared to handbow. Plain and simple, it's easy and
            therefore too boring. No one wants to shoot with a crossbow in a
            competition. It's almost like an unwritten rule, no crossbows. That's it. We
            have people in SCA with crossbows, we have traditional crossbows, crossbows
            with nuts, semi-automatic period crossbows, one guy even made a fully
            automatic crossbow integrated into battery powered drill (aha, not period).
            I heard that he had plans of making a steam-powered fully automatic
            crossbow. But...

            I'm still waiting for someone to appear with a crossbow to shoot in a SCA
            competition. Perhaps some day.

            As a historical side note, the elite corps of the city of Munich, Germany,
            were crossbowmen. As time went by, they were replaced by musketeers. It's
            very easy to see, that longbowmen were no match to crossbowmen in a real war
            situation, at least when the matters was about defending a city.

            I here in Finland totally agree. If someone ever walks over with a crossbow,
            yep, we are no match to it. But given the option, we like to shoot with
            diffucult bows.

            I vote for different categories for crossbows and handbows. Handbows are no
            match in accuracy.

            Best regards,

            Klaus



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Scott L Hecathorn <robert1015@...>
            To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 23:48
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Apples and Oranges: The Response


            > Well, I "WAS" going to stay out of this, but someone just had to bring me
            > up. I shoot both a crossbow and a recurve and am currently having a
            > longbow made for me. I will flat out agree that many of the competiotions
            > most people shoot in the SCA are crossbow friendly. I will say though,
            > that as a person that decided to shoot crossbow for the champions point
            > at pennsic, I picked a bad year to do it!! There where so many targets
            > where people shooting handbows had the better shot, the easier and more
            > forgiving targets, and the options of doing better. I personally loved
            > the shoot this year, and next year we might even win!! The shoot really
            > did try to break off of the "one dominating" type of bow. My personal
            > method of even playing fields is not by timed rounds, but unknown
            > distance and roving ranges. I do these at my events and practices. Not
            > only does this help with people who feel that a crossbow is better, it
            > also helps people improve on there range guessing. To me, speed rounds
            > just show people that can shoot fast. I am a very big promoter of shoot
            > accuratly, then build up speed. If I can beat someone shooting my 5
            > arrows to there 10, then who really has the advantage? And IMHO handbows
            > have a greater number of advantages going on for them than many people
            > think.
            >
            > When shooting a handbow, for closer targets you have the option to short
            > draw the bow as opposed to the set draw a crossbow has. It is pretty
            > funny watching crossbow shooters, like myself, who has a dead on aim at
            > 20yds. shoot something 8-12yds. away. Which clump of dirt should I aim
            > at? Also as Caedmon mentioned, crossbows are almost merciless when it
            > comes to tilting the bow further down your shoulder, slightly canting the
            > bow to one side, drawing back more with one hand then the other. All
            > these little things, along with a handfull more can make that "rifle with
            > a string" just a 2x4 with a string. Ailen Mac an Daroch told me once that
            > 90% of crossbow scores happen before the bow even hits the range. Up keep
            > can mean everything to a crossbow shooter. I have had to many occasion
            > than I can count where my string blew up in the middle of shooting and I
            > had to put a new one that wasn't quite as tight/loose/thickly served as
            > the one that blew up. I also have had to quit shooting at two events
            > because my prod snapped durinng a timed round. I have since then found
            > out that my crossbow is overdrawing 3/4". With a handbow this 3/4" would
            > mean butkas unless you're already about to pull the string off the bow in
            > the first place. Handbow scores only get better with practice. There are
            > exceptions, but most of us are not naturals that can pick up our bow
            > after 6mo. and shoot like we were when we left off.
            >
            > Speed rounds- While crossbows are more accurate, because they have such
            > slow shooting time, many crossbow shooters I know have a "spray and pray"
            > attitude when it comes to speed rounds. Handbows are much faster to draw,
            > less awkward to draw, and because of these slight advantages, handbow
            > shooters can take a little more time to get that sure shot.
            >
            > Shooting ranges-Handbows are welcome on most if not all archery ranges. I
            > say it this way because I have been to a range onetime that was so
            > compound orientated that they had no idea what a recurve was. With
            > crossbows, many insurance companies still consider them more like a rifle
            > than a bow and therefore will not allow some ranges to allow crossbows to
            > shoot. Also, some city ordinances won't even allow crossbows within city
            > limits. So there is a big advantage for handbows.
            >
            > Moving around between targets. Big advantage for handbbows. Pennsic was a
            > great example of this. The handbow shooters could stroll u pto the next
            > target line and get there bearings while we crossbow shooters where run,
            > draw shoot and run somemore hoping to beat the count to get our bearings.
            > A rushed shoot is definatly challenging.
            >
            > About the only thing I can really say, to most people it does look like
            > crossbows have by far the advantage, but thats only because the shoots
            > are integrated. If you have problems shooting against the other form,
            > talk with the marshal in charge and see if he can break up catagories,
            > you'ld be surprised, many don't think about this until its brought to
            > there attention, or don't shoot against them and enjoy the event as a
            > whole.
            >
            > Robert Thorne
            > ________________________________________________________________
            > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
            > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
            > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
            > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
            >
            > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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            > Need a bow? Check http://www.baronbows.com/
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            >
          • Chad and Erin Wilson
            From: Scott L Hecathorn ... [...] *snicker* It s fun invoking your name. -Caedmon
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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              From: "Scott L Hecathorn" <robert1015@...>
              > Well, I "WAS" going to stay out of this, but someone just had to bring me
              > up.
              [...]

              *snicker*

              It's fun invoking your name.

              -Caedmon
            • Bill Whitley
              ... Counting down would be more fun: V, IV, III, II, I, loose! toshi --
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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                >NEXT TOPIC: "Speed rounds for ballistas? Pros and Cons" ;-P

                Counting down would be more fun: "V, IV, III, II, I, loose!"

                toshi
                --
              • Russ Sheldon
                Dafydd Comes out of the shadows.... ... Put s up his hand.... Can t speak for the others but I managed to do it without marks on a recurve. Even so my hero s
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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                  Dafydd Comes out of the shadows....
                  > Okay, okay. So handbows are easier to shoot than crossbows? Nice spin.
                  > Of the Ludicrous Bowmen in the Knowne Worlde, how many of them won the
                  > distinction with an unmarked handbow as opposed to a sighted crossbow or
                  > handbow with limb markings?
                  Put's up his hand.... Can't speak for the others but I managed to do it
                  without marks on a recurve. Even so my hero's are the archers who can shoot
                  at unknown ranges ( what I've been learning over the last few years ). Damn
                  archers from the East and Aethelmarc who got me interested in walk thru
                  shooting...sigh! ;-) Get them out to a set range and there ok ( 20 , 30, 40
                  yrds etc.), put them infront of a target at an unknown range or multiple
                  ones at roving points and some just kick ass.
                  As to your question of the others I believe and someone can correct me
                  but the majority of the ludicrous are with crossbows 60%???...at least it
                  was...things change. How many with sights or marks???

                  > I never shortdraw or overdraw my bow. For me,that would be bad
                  > form, and it does make a very big difference on the shot. It would
                  > confuse the memory of the wood in my bow. I don't want to confuse my
                  > bow, we work so well together, I like my bow, I want it to keep liking
                  > me.
                  >
                  What he said....

                  > NEXT TOPIC: "Speed rounds for ballistas? Pros and Cons" ;-P
                  >
                  Why a speed round...just build a bigger ballista that throws bigger bolts???
                  ;-)

                  Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
                • Bruce R. Gordon
                  Greetings Well, for starters, look into the Midrealm Winter Challenge, that I oversee. Off of the rules page at: http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/wint.html
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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                    Greetings
                    Well, for starters, look into the Midrealm Winter Challenge, that I
                    oversee. Off of the rules page at: http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/wint.html
                    are the scores for the current season, and also links to some previous
                    season totals. For the past several years, I've been sorting scores into
                    categories by bow type, so it is quite easy to make comparisons. As it
                    happens, crossbows do show a strong tendency to be more accurate;
                    however, the all-time high score goes to a handbow, a 38 pound
                    recurve(98-99 season).

                    Forester Nigel FitzMaurice

                    Marko Peussa wrote:

                    > Impressive email from Robert.
                    >
                    > I'm going to throw in some impressions from the Barony of Aarnimetsa
                    > (Finland, Europe), located in the northern part of the Kingdon of
                    > Drachenwald.
                    >
                    > I have always wondered what it is going to be like when we have handbow and
                    > crossbow archers in the same competition. Who will win, and what about the
                    > aftermath? Finland is traditionally the home of the crossbow. This is
                    > because crossbow has been the bow for hunting, war and competitions for
                    > centuries. If you ask for a Finnish traditional bow, the answer is not
                    > likely to be longbow. It's crossbow. You may ask why. Just because Finland
                    > has always been a place with woods, more woods and then some. Guerrilla
                    > warfare was the name of the game in the middle ages in Finland and
                    > neighbourhood, therefore the crossbow. Shoot once, and disappear.
                    >
                    > It's quite surprising what the guys said. I mean the SCA archers here.
                    >
                    > They say, that shooting with the crossbow is too easy. There is no big
                    > challenge in hitting compared to handbow. Plain and simple, it's easy and
                    > therefore too boring. No one wants to shoot with a crossbow in a
                    > competition. It's almost like an unwritten rule, no crossbows. That's it. We
                    > have people in SCA with crossbows, we have traditional crossbows, crossbows
                    > with nuts, semi-automatic period crossbows, one guy even made a fully
                    > automatic crossbow integrated into battery powered drill (aha, not period).
                    > I heard that he had plans of making a steam-powered fully automatic
                    > crossbow. But...
                    >
                    > I'm still waiting for someone to appear with a crossbow to shoot in a SCA
                    > competition. Perhaps some day.
                    >

                    --
                    Ex Tenebra, Lux

                    http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
                  • atruemark@aol.com
                    In a message dated 11/30/01 2:32:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... I m afraid I m one of those Ludicrous Bowmen who uses an unmarked handbow - thank God for
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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                      In a message dated 11/30/01 2:32:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                      jrosswebb1@... writes:


                      > Okay, okay. So handbows are easier to shoot than crossbows? Nice spin.
                      > Of the Ludicrous Bowmen in the Knowne Worlde, how many of them won the
                      > distinction with an unmarked handbow as opposed to a sighted crossbow or
                      > handbow with limb markings?
                      >

                      I'm afraid I'm one of those Ludicrous Bowmen who uses an unmarked handbow -
                      thank God for speed rounds! (Grin)

                      Andras Truemark, OGGS


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • hamberg@fiber.net
                      ... I have never found any period documentation of a crossbowman firing bolts in rapid succession from a seated position. Can anybody provide a credible sited
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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                        > Okay, okay. So handbows are easier to shoot than crossbows? Nice
                        > spin. Of the Ludicrous Bowmen in the Knowne Worlde, how many of
                        > them won the distinction with an unmarked handbow as opposed to a
                        > sighted crossbow or handbow with limb markings?

                        I have never found any period documentation of a crossbowman firing
                        bolts in rapid succession from a seated position. Can anybody
                        provide a credible sited source.

                        Michael
                      • Jaime Tiampo
                        ... Unfortunately I don t know what a seated possition is. The only crossbow I know that fires bolts in rapid succession is the chinese repeating crossbow. --
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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                          hamberg@... wrote:
                          >
                          > > Okay, okay. So handbows are easier to shoot than crossbows? Nice
                          > > spin. Of the Ludicrous Bowmen in the Knowne Worlde, how many of
                          > > them won the distinction with an unmarked handbow as opposed to a
                          > > sighted crossbow or handbow with limb markings?
                          >
                          > I have never found any period documentation of a crossbowman firing
                          > bolts in rapid succession from a seated position. Can anybody
                          > provide a credible sited source.

                          Unfortunately I don't know what a seated possition is. The only crossbow
                          I know that fires bolts in rapid succession is the chinese repeating
                          crossbow.

                          --
                          Ts'ai T'ien-p'u
                        • James Pratt
                          Is rapid succession 9 or 13 bolts in 30 Seconds? James Cunningham
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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                            Is "rapid succession" 9 or 13 bolts in 30 Seconds?

                            James Cunningham

                            >Unfortunately I don't know what a seated possition is. The only crossbow
                            >I know that fires bolts in rapid succession is the chinese repeating
                            >crossbow.
                            >
                            >--
                            >Ts'ai T'ien-p'u
                            >
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                          • Jack Bradley
                            I got marks ( head hung in shame) Ragnar
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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                              I got marks ( head hung in shame)
                              Ragnar

                              atruemark@... wrote:

                              > In a message dated 11/30/01 2:32:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                              > jrosswebb1@... writes:
                              >
                              > > Okay, okay. So handbows are easier to shoot than crossbows? Nice spin.
                              > > Of the Ludicrous Bowmen in the Knowne Worlde, how many of them won the
                              > > distinction with an unmarked handbow as opposed to a sighted crossbow or
                              > > handbow with limb markings?
                              > >
                              >
                              > I'm afraid I'm one of those Ludicrous Bowmen who uses an unmarked handbow -
                              > thank God for speed rounds! (Grin)
                              >
                              > Andras Truemark, OGGS
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                              > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2001 by Baron Bows
                              > Need a bow? Check http://www.baronbows.com/
                              >
                              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                              >
                              >
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                            • Jaime Tiampo
                              ... No. It s more like 30 bolts or more in 30 seconds. -- Ts ai T ien-p u
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
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                                James Pratt wrote:
                                >
                                > Is "rapid succession" 9 or 13 bolts in 30 Seconds?

                                No. It's more like 30 bolts or more in 30 seconds.

                                --
                                Ts'ai T'ien-p'u
                              • hamberg@fiber.net
                                ... I have yet to see one source that documents a crossbow being fired in combat. I can t document firing a weapon similar to what is being done by
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 1, 2001
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                                  > Okay, okay. So handbows are easier to shoot than crossbows? Nice
                                  > spin. Of the Ludicrous Bowmen in the Knowne Worlde, how many of
                                  > them won the distinction with an unmarked handbow as opposed to a
                                  > sighted crossbow or handbow with limb markings?

                                  I have yet to see one source that documents a crossbow being fired in
                                  combat. I can't document firing a weapon similar to what is being
                                  done by crossbowmen in IKAC and Royal Rounds in Period. Can anybody
                                  provide any documentation showing that crossbowmen fired a crossbow
                                  in a sitting position in combat?

                                  Michael

                                  PS> If no documentation exists should this technique also be banned?
                                • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                                  ... First of all, for the record, I am a standing crossbowmen ... Now, to move on ... Firing from a sitting position in COMBAT ... of course not, except
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Dec 1, 2001
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                                    > Can anybody
                                    >provide any documentation showing that crossbowmen fired a crossbow
                                    >in a sitting position in combat?
                                    >
                                    >PS> If no documentation exists should this technique also be banned?

                                    First of all, for the record, I am a 'standing crossbowmen' ...

                                    Now, to move on ...

                                    Firing from a sitting position in COMBAT ... of course not, except perhaps
                                    crossbowmen on the ramparts ...

                                    However, 'bench shooting' was VERY common place in late period as sport
                                    with crossbows. And that takes sitting even a step further. That also is
                                    what we are doing ... TARGET archery. We aren't simulating combat with our
                                    target bows, we are simulating the archery competitions of the day ...

                                    Which, there is lots of documentation/woodcuts/etc about crossbowmen
                                    competing while sitting at a bench.

                                    Siegfried

                                    ______________________________________________________________________
                                    Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust Barony of Highland Foorde
                                    Baronial Web Minister http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org
                                  • eulenhorst@juno.com
                                    I believe there are also documents of crossbowmen sitting behind a rail shooting siege crossbows as snipers picking off the defenders from city or castle
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 1, 2001
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                                      I believe there are also documents of crossbowmen sitting behind a rail
                                      shooting siege crossbows as snipers picking off the defenders from city
                                      or castle walls. I just don't have access to all my references right
                                      now. I do get tired of all this emphasis on "combat" when we are
                                      practicing a period sport and not fighting battles. It's time to take
                                      the blinders off and look at the full spectrum of archery as practiced in
                                      period, not just in war.

                                      In service to the dream,
                                      Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                      eulenhorst@...

                                      On Sat, 01 Dec 2001 16:21:22 -0500 Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                                      <eliwhite@...> writes:
                                      >
                                      > > Can anybody
                                      > >provide any documentation showing that crossbowmen fired a
                                      > crossbow
                                      > >in a sitting position in combat?
                                      > >
                                      > >PS> If no documentation exists should this technique also be
                                      > banned?
                                      >
                                      > First of all, for the record, I am a 'standing crossbowmen' ...
                                      >
                                      > Now, to move on ...
                                      >
                                      > Firing from a sitting position in COMBAT ... of course not, except
                                      > perhaps
                                      > crossbowmen on the ramparts ...
                                      >
                                      > However, 'bench shooting' was VERY common place in late period as
                                      > sport
                                      > with crossbows. And that takes sitting even a step further. That
                                      > also is
                                      > what we are doing ... TARGET archery. We aren't simulating combat
                                      > with our
                                      > target bows, we are simulating the archery competitions of the day
                                      > ...
                                      >
                                      > Which, there is lots of documentation/woodcuts/etc about crossbowmen
                                      >
                                      > competing while sitting at a bench.
                                      >
                                      > Siegfried
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