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Re: [SCA-Archery] Apples and Oranges?

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  • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
    ... eh hem Ok, here are my thoughts ... similar to what has been said by others already. Yes, there are differences ... but the unbalancing factor is one
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 30, 2001
      >Who was it who thought that Crossbow and Bow could
      >even be closely resembled in regards to competition
      >and performance?

      'eh hem'

      Ok, here are my thoughts ... similar to what has been said by others already.

      Yes, there are differences ... but the 'unbalancing factor' is one of the
      shoots that you are shooting. If crossbows are cleaning about the
      competition, usually the shoots are designed in a way that allows
      that. The shoots CAN BE designed to equalize all factors considered. This
      is actually something that I have been trying to do alot of research into
      lately ... planning the 'equal' shoot ...

      As a general overriding statement ... (so yes, expect this to be WRONG) ...
      the big difference is that crossbows are more accurate, and bows are
      faster. (Yes, there are VERY fast crossbowmen out there, just as there are
      VERY accurate bowmen ... and these classifications of people are going to
      WIN, because they have the best of both worlds, and they have had to WORK
      at it.)

      But anyway ... this means that a 'balance' needs to be struck, between
      speed, and accuracy, in a competition. Royal Rounds are a good example of
      where it is 'not quite balanced'. At the high levels, at a score of 100,
      yes, it is balanced. But as you get into lower score brackets, it becomes
      more crossbow friendly.

      The trick is to balance the scores for 'speed shooters', and 'accuracy
      shooters'. Now, this DOESN'T mean to have equal numbers of speed and
      accuracy shoots (IKAC style). Why not? Because speed shoots inherently,
      if scored similarly, have more potential score. The important system is to
      make sure that any amount of 'points' in a competition that can be scored
      by accuracy, a similar amount should be able to be scored by speed.

      Now, there are also other ways to equalize besides that. There are other
      strengths/differences in the two styles. For example, the ability to
      'move'. Bowmen are MUCH more mobile than crossbowmen. Around here it is a
      common practice to have 'moving' shoots. Have 6-9 man targets lined up in
      a row, and have a time limit (30secs/etc) to run down the row shooting the
      different targets. Bowmen are quite amazing at this, some not even
      breaking stride. Crossbowmen on the other hand very quickly show their
      limitations. Usually running in between two targets, cocking, firing at
      the one they past, cocking, fire at the next one ... run two more targets
      down, start over. It is VERY slow.

      I have been to shoots before that were impossible for a 'normal
      crossbowmen' to win. Where there might have been 20 targets, but one was a
      speed one, and was possible to score over 20 points ... and all the rest of
      the targets only added up to 19 points. It was SO biased to this one speed
      shoot, that a fast bowmen who then did reasonably well on the rest of the
      targets didn't give a crossbowmen a chance. In this case, the 'balancing'
      was too far.

      You can find other ways as well ... So in summation, don't blame the
      crossbowmen (or the bowmen), blame the specific shoot.

      Siegfried


      ______________________________________________________________________
      Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust Barony of Highland Foorde
      Baronial Web Minister http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org
    • Howpatn@cs.com
      ... Actually, it isn t. It greatly depends on the person using the weapon, more the weapon itself. A crossbowman matched against a longbowman of equal skill
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
        :
        > ONLY thing they really have in common is wind
        > factor... that I can see anyhow. It's like comparing a
        > rifle and a pistol... sorta. Either way, it's apples
        > and oranges.
        >

        Actually, it isn't. It greatly depends on the person using the weapon, more
        the weapon itself. A crossbowman matched against a longbowman of equal skill
        would probably be an interesting match.
        You aren't mixing apples and oranges just different types of apples each with
        its own distinct advantages and disanvantages.

        Howard of Brockenhurst


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ken Taylor
        Dont you think the applied physics of the two are quite different? They REALLY are. Comparing a longbow, a compound and a recurve is apples and different
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
          Dont you think the applied physics of the two are
          quite different? They REALLY are. Comparing a longbow,
          a compound and a recurve is apples and different
          apples, NOT a Crossbow and (any) bow Handbow.

          (and please dont tell me about the "they both (xbow
          and bow) get the arrow/bolt to the target" speech. A
          motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
          but do it quite differently.)

          :)

          > > ONLY thing they really have in common is wind
          > > factor... that I can see anyhow. It's like
          > comparing a
          > > rifle and a pistol... sorta. Either way, it's
          > apples
          > > and oranges.
          > >
          >
          > Actually, it isn't. It greatly depends on the person
          > using the weapon, more
          > the weapon itself. > removed]
          >
          >


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        • wyvern@megahits.com
          ... And yet they both rely on the same principles of internal combustion to do it. They re just different applications of the same basic technology. Ditto
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
            > (and please dont tell me about the "they both (xbow
            > and bow) get the arrow/bolt to the target" speech. A
            > motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
            > but do it quite differently.)

            And yet they both rely on the same principles of internal
            combustion to do it. They're just different applications of the same
            basic technology. Ditto handbow and crossbow -- they're more
            alike than they are different.

            YIS,
            Macsen
          • Ken Taylor
            applications of the same basic technology HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a hand bow. C mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
              "applications of the same basic technology"

              HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
              hand bow.

              C'mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
              they are if you like if it makes you feel
              better.(sorry bout the sarcasm, Im frustrated)

              Have you ever taken a physics class? (Im not busting
              on you, its a serious question) If youre an engineer
              also you may understand where Im going with this.

              Im done.. lol... I dont want to make anyone mad at
              me.. sorry.



              > And yet they both rely on the same principles of
              > internal
              > combustion to do it. They're just different
              > applications of the same
              > basic technology. Ditto handbow and crossbow --
              > they're more
              > alike than they are different.
              >
              > YIS,
              > Macsen
              >
              >
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            • wyvern@megahits.com
              ... And yet the same basic principles are at work. The central concept of both forms of the weapon is to utilize the stored energy of a bent bow to propel an
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
                > "applications of the same basic technology"
                >
                > HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
                > hand bow.

                And yet the same basic principles are at work. The central
                concept of both forms of the weapon is to utilize the stored energy
                of a bent bow to propel an arrow. Everything else is just
                embellishment of that same central principle. The only notable
                difference between the two is that crossbows add a fixed draw
                length and mechanically assisted release into the equation. (That's
                one or two extra moving parts. Mechanical releases are also used
                with handbows -- just not in the SCA because they aren't period.
                Unless you count thumbrings. Which are another moving part... =)

                > C'mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
                > they are if you like if it makes you feel better.(sorry bout
                > the sarcasm, Im frustrated)

                It's not about me "feeling better," it's about recognizing the simple
                facts of the matter.

                > Have you ever taken a physics class? (Im not busting
                > on you, its a serious question) If youre an engineer
                > also you may understand where Im going with this.

                Yes, in fact I studied engineering. I also shoot both longbows and
                crossbows, make arrows and bolts, and build/repair crossbows.
                That's why I know for a fact that the basic principles of operation of
                both are identical.

                > Im done.. lol... I dont want to make anyone mad at
                > me.. sorry.

                Don't feel bad. Irrational fear of crossbows is period. ;)

                YIS,
                Macsen
              • atruemark@aol.com
                In an earlier post I stated that the crossbow provided an unfair advantage due to its fixed string position and mechanical release. I would have been more
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
                  In an earlier post I stated that the crossbow provided an "unfair advantage"
                  due to its fixed string position and mechanical release. I would have been
                  more accurate to have stated the crossbow provides an "unfair mechanical
                  advantage," since I would be the first to acknowledge that shooting a period
                  style crossbow requires every bit as much knowledge, expertise, practice and
                  cussing as a handbow, just in different areas than the handbow.

                  For example, beyond the basics of shooting a handbow well, almost the
                  entirety of what I practice is to achieve the "mechanical" results that the
                  crossbow possesses as part of its design; a consistent draw length (anchor
                  point) and "mechanical" release (the non-effort that gets my fingers off the
                  string in the least invasive manner).
                  Truly, when my arrows do not go exactly where I intended I can almost always
                  point to one of these two factors as being the culprit - either I "let down"
                  or "crept" or my release was less than perfect. "Aim," in my belief (and
                  teaching) is the least of what directs my arrows to the proper part of the
                  target - Good form, including, most importantly a consistent anchor and
                  clean release, dictates the eventual placement of the arrow.

                  Conversly, when shooting a period crossbow, it everything about where the
                  butt of the bow is placed on (or in) my shoulder, how the bow is canted, how
                  I drew the string back, how the bolts are made and balanced, how I am
                  breathing when I actuate the mechanical release aid (trigger), etc. Again,
                  my practices become about being as "mechanical" as possible, doing all the
                  right things all the time, consistently.

                  Having said all that - and acknowledging the "balancing" factor of the
                  quicker rate of fire for the handbow vs the crossbow (with the exception of a
                  few crossbow shooters who have figured that one out as well) in the speed
                  rounds - I will still state that crossbows should not compete heads up
                  against handbows. It is historically accurate that crossbows supplanted
                  handbows in Europe as the "shaft thrower" of choice, only in turn to be
                  supplanted by the firearm. It is easier to learn to shoot the crossbow
                  effectively than it is to learn to shoot the handbow to the same level,
                  primarily due to its inherent "unfair mechanical advantages."

                  All the above is my personal opinion. It is based on what I can do with a
                  handbow and what I have learned to do with a period style crossbow over the
                  past five years. I invoke Master Ailean's name here as testimony that I
                  enjoy the crossbow and so am not tainted by a dislike of the apparatus - I
                  merely point out the differences.

                  Andras Truemark, OGGS
                  Ludicrous Bowman (Handbow)
                  Grandmaster Bowman (Crossbow)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Howpatn@cs.com
                  ... Both motorcycles and cars operate on the same principle, converting the heat of burning fuel into mechanical energy. The major, other than size, difference
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
                    > motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
                    > but do it quite differently.)
                    >

                    Both motorcycles and cars operate on the same principle, converting the heat
                    of burning fuel into mechanical energy. The major, other than size,
                    difference between the motorcycle and cars is the number of wheels. I am
                    licensed to drive both and Class A vehicles too.

                    With crossbows and bows the major difference is the in the mechanics not the
                    propulsion. Both use a bent stick as the propulsion device. It is still the
                    shooter more than the weapon that is the deciding factor.

                    Howard


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Howpatn@cs.com
                    ... You see only one mechanical moving part. That s the difference. //You can go on thinking they are if you like if it makes you feel better.(sorry bout the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
                      > HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
                      > hand bow.
                      >
                      >

                      You see only one mechanical moving part. That's the difference.

                      //You can go on thinking
                      they are if you like if it makes you feel
                      better.(sorry bout the sarcasm, Im frustrated)//

                      Don't get frustrated. This isn't worth an ulcer.

                      Howard




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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