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Re: [SCA-Archery] Apples and Oranges?

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  • wyvern@megahits.com
    ... Why hasn t what been changed and by whom? Every SCA competition is independent of every other SCA competition. When someone sponsors an event or a
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 30, 2001
      > Who was it who thought that Crossbow and Bow could
      > even be closely resembled in regards to competition
      > and performance? And why hasn't it been changed?

      Why hasn't what been changed and by whom? Every SCA
      competition is independent of every other SCA competition. When
      someone sponsors an event or a competition at an event, it's up to
      them to select the rules for competition. In my experience, some
      choose to establish different divisions or even differnet competitions
      based on equipment, some don't.

      Personally, I typically prefer well balanced competition designs that
      don't drastically favor one type of equipment over another. The only
      'division' I'm really concerned about is that all equipment meets
      SCA standards.

      You'll occasionally hear people whining about, "It's not fair that I
      have to shoot against people using XYZ when I'm using ABC," but
      those people are missing the point. You *choose* the type of
      equipment you shoot with, you *choose* the competitions you
      enter or don't enter. If you're shooting for the love of the sport, it
      doesn't matter -- you'll shoot whenever you can. If you're shooting
      primarily to win competitions geared specifically to the equipment
      you've chosen to shoot, you'll probably find your options limited in
      the SCA.

      (As for apples and oranges, the objective of most SCA
      competitions is to place an arrow on a specific target from a
      specific distance. What mechanism an archer uses to place it
      there is up to the archer and every archer has the same options as
      every other archer. Ultimately, that's about as 'apples to apples' as
      you can get. =)

      YIS,
      Macsen
      (Who shoots both longbow and crossbow and has been known to
      switch off between the two in competitions that allow it.)
    • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
      ... eh hem Ok, here are my thoughts ... similar to what has been said by others already. Yes, there are differences ... but the unbalancing factor is one
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 30, 2001
        >Who was it who thought that Crossbow and Bow could
        >even be closely resembled in regards to competition
        >and performance?

        'eh hem'

        Ok, here are my thoughts ... similar to what has been said by others already.

        Yes, there are differences ... but the 'unbalancing factor' is one of the
        shoots that you are shooting. If crossbows are cleaning about the
        competition, usually the shoots are designed in a way that allows
        that. The shoots CAN BE designed to equalize all factors considered. This
        is actually something that I have been trying to do alot of research into
        lately ... planning the 'equal' shoot ...

        As a general overriding statement ... (so yes, expect this to be WRONG) ...
        the big difference is that crossbows are more accurate, and bows are
        faster. (Yes, there are VERY fast crossbowmen out there, just as there are
        VERY accurate bowmen ... and these classifications of people are going to
        WIN, because they have the best of both worlds, and they have had to WORK
        at it.)

        But anyway ... this means that a 'balance' needs to be struck, between
        speed, and accuracy, in a competition. Royal Rounds are a good example of
        where it is 'not quite balanced'. At the high levels, at a score of 100,
        yes, it is balanced. But as you get into lower score brackets, it becomes
        more crossbow friendly.

        The trick is to balance the scores for 'speed shooters', and 'accuracy
        shooters'. Now, this DOESN'T mean to have equal numbers of speed and
        accuracy shoots (IKAC style). Why not? Because speed shoots inherently,
        if scored similarly, have more potential score. The important system is to
        make sure that any amount of 'points' in a competition that can be scored
        by accuracy, a similar amount should be able to be scored by speed.

        Now, there are also other ways to equalize besides that. There are other
        strengths/differences in the two styles. For example, the ability to
        'move'. Bowmen are MUCH more mobile than crossbowmen. Around here it is a
        common practice to have 'moving' shoots. Have 6-9 man targets lined up in
        a row, and have a time limit (30secs/etc) to run down the row shooting the
        different targets. Bowmen are quite amazing at this, some not even
        breaking stride. Crossbowmen on the other hand very quickly show their
        limitations. Usually running in between two targets, cocking, firing at
        the one they past, cocking, fire at the next one ... run two more targets
        down, start over. It is VERY slow.

        I have been to shoots before that were impossible for a 'normal
        crossbowmen' to win. Where there might have been 20 targets, but one was a
        speed one, and was possible to score over 20 points ... and all the rest of
        the targets only added up to 19 points. It was SO biased to this one speed
        shoot, that a fast bowmen who then did reasonably well on the rest of the
        targets didn't give a crossbowmen a chance. In this case, the 'balancing'
        was too far.

        You can find other ways as well ... So in summation, don't blame the
        crossbowmen (or the bowmen), blame the specific shoot.

        Siegfried


        ______________________________________________________________________
        Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust Barony of Highland Foorde
        Baronial Web Minister http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org
      • Howpatn@cs.com
        ... Actually, it isn t. It greatly depends on the person using the weapon, more the weapon itself. A crossbowman matched against a longbowman of equal skill
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 1 1:42 AM
          :
          > ONLY thing they really have in common is wind
          > factor... that I can see anyhow. It's like comparing a
          > rifle and a pistol... sorta. Either way, it's apples
          > and oranges.
          >

          Actually, it isn't. It greatly depends on the person using the weapon, more
          the weapon itself. A crossbowman matched against a longbowman of equal skill
          would probably be an interesting match.
          You aren't mixing apples and oranges just different types of apples each with
          its own distinct advantages and disanvantages.

          Howard of Brockenhurst


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ken Taylor
          Dont you think the applied physics of the two are quite different? They REALLY are. Comparing a longbow, a compound and a recurve is apples and different
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 1 5:45 AM
            Dont you think the applied physics of the two are
            quite different? They REALLY are. Comparing a longbow,
            a compound and a recurve is apples and different
            apples, NOT a Crossbow and (any) bow Handbow.

            (and please dont tell me about the "they both (xbow
            and bow) get the arrow/bolt to the target" speech. A
            motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
            but do it quite differently.)

            :)

            > > ONLY thing they really have in common is wind
            > > factor... that I can see anyhow. It's like
            > comparing a
            > > rifle and a pistol... sorta. Either way, it's
            > apples
            > > and oranges.
            > >
            >
            > Actually, it isn't. It greatly depends on the person
            > using the weapon, more
            > the weapon itself. > removed]
            >
            >


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          • wyvern@megahits.com
            ... And yet they both rely on the same principles of internal combustion to do it. They re just different applications of the same basic technology. Ditto
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 1 6:09 AM
              > (and please dont tell me about the "they both (xbow
              > and bow) get the arrow/bolt to the target" speech. A
              > motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
              > but do it quite differently.)

              And yet they both rely on the same principles of internal
              combustion to do it. They're just different applications of the same
              basic technology. Ditto handbow and crossbow -- they're more
              alike than they are different.

              YIS,
              Macsen
            • Ken Taylor
              applications of the same basic technology HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a hand bow. C mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 1 7:31 AM
                "applications of the same basic technology"

                HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
                hand bow.

                C'mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
                they are if you like if it makes you feel
                better.(sorry bout the sarcasm, Im frustrated)

                Have you ever taken a physics class? (Im not busting
                on you, its a serious question) If youre an engineer
                also you may understand where Im going with this.

                Im done.. lol... I dont want to make anyone mad at
                me.. sorry.



                > And yet they both rely on the same principles of
                > internal
                > combustion to do it. They're just different
                > applications of the same
                > basic technology. Ditto handbow and crossbow --
                > they're more
                > alike than they are different.
                >
                > YIS,
                > Macsen
                >
                >
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              • wyvern@megahits.com
                ... And yet the same basic principles are at work. The central concept of both forms of the weapon is to utilize the stored energy of a bent bow to propel an
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 1 7:59 AM
                  > "applications of the same basic technology"
                  >
                  > HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
                  > hand bow.

                  And yet the same basic principles are at work. The central
                  concept of both forms of the weapon is to utilize the stored energy
                  of a bent bow to propel an arrow. Everything else is just
                  embellishment of that same central principle. The only notable
                  difference between the two is that crossbows add a fixed draw
                  length and mechanically assisted release into the equation. (That's
                  one or two extra moving parts. Mechanical releases are also used
                  with handbows -- just not in the SCA because they aren't period.
                  Unless you count thumbrings. Which are another moving part... =)

                  > C'mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
                  > they are if you like if it makes you feel better.(sorry bout
                  > the sarcasm, Im frustrated)

                  It's not about me "feeling better," it's about recognizing the simple
                  facts of the matter.

                  > Have you ever taken a physics class? (Im not busting
                  > on you, its a serious question) If youre an engineer
                  > also you may understand where Im going with this.

                  Yes, in fact I studied engineering. I also shoot both longbows and
                  crossbows, make arrows and bolts, and build/repair crossbows.
                  That's why I know for a fact that the basic principles of operation of
                  both are identical.

                  > Im done.. lol... I dont want to make anyone mad at
                  > me.. sorry.

                  Don't feel bad. Irrational fear of crossbows is period. ;)

                  YIS,
                  Macsen
                • atruemark@aol.com
                  In an earlier post I stated that the crossbow provided an unfair advantage due to its fixed string position and mechanical release. I would have been more
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 1 8:36 AM
                    In an earlier post I stated that the crossbow provided an "unfair advantage"
                    due to its fixed string position and mechanical release. I would have been
                    more accurate to have stated the crossbow provides an "unfair mechanical
                    advantage," since I would be the first to acknowledge that shooting a period
                    style crossbow requires every bit as much knowledge, expertise, practice and
                    cussing as a handbow, just in different areas than the handbow.

                    For example, beyond the basics of shooting a handbow well, almost the
                    entirety of what I practice is to achieve the "mechanical" results that the
                    crossbow possesses as part of its design; a consistent draw length (anchor
                    point) and "mechanical" release (the non-effort that gets my fingers off the
                    string in the least invasive manner).
                    Truly, when my arrows do not go exactly where I intended I can almost always
                    point to one of these two factors as being the culprit - either I "let down"
                    or "crept" or my release was less than perfect. "Aim," in my belief (and
                    teaching) is the least of what directs my arrows to the proper part of the
                    target - Good form, including, most importantly a consistent anchor and
                    clean release, dictates the eventual placement of the arrow.

                    Conversly, when shooting a period crossbow, it everything about where the
                    butt of the bow is placed on (or in) my shoulder, how the bow is canted, how
                    I drew the string back, how the bolts are made and balanced, how I am
                    breathing when I actuate the mechanical release aid (trigger), etc. Again,
                    my practices become about being as "mechanical" as possible, doing all the
                    right things all the time, consistently.

                    Having said all that - and acknowledging the "balancing" factor of the
                    quicker rate of fire for the handbow vs the crossbow (with the exception of a
                    few crossbow shooters who have figured that one out as well) in the speed
                    rounds - I will still state that crossbows should not compete heads up
                    against handbows. It is historically accurate that crossbows supplanted
                    handbows in Europe as the "shaft thrower" of choice, only in turn to be
                    supplanted by the firearm. It is easier to learn to shoot the crossbow
                    effectively than it is to learn to shoot the handbow to the same level,
                    primarily due to its inherent "unfair mechanical advantages."

                    All the above is my personal opinion. It is based on what I can do with a
                    handbow and what I have learned to do with a period style crossbow over the
                    past five years. I invoke Master Ailean's name here as testimony that I
                    enjoy the crossbow and so am not tainted by a dislike of the apparatus - I
                    merely point out the differences.

                    Andras Truemark, OGGS
                    Ludicrous Bowman (Handbow)
                    Grandmaster Bowman (Crossbow)


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Howpatn@cs.com
                    ... Both motorcycles and cars operate on the same principle, converting the heat of burning fuel into mechanical energy. The major, other than size, difference
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 1 8:44 AM
                      > motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
                      > but do it quite differently.)
                      >

                      Both motorcycles and cars operate on the same principle, converting the heat
                      of burning fuel into mechanical energy. The major, other than size,
                      difference between the motorcycle and cars is the number of wheels. I am
                      licensed to drive both and Class A vehicles too.

                      With crossbows and bows the major difference is the in the mechanics not the
                      propulsion. Both use a bent stick as the propulsion device. It is still the
                      shooter more than the weapon that is the deciding factor.

                      Howard


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Howpatn@cs.com
                      ... You see only one mechanical moving part. That s the difference. //You can go on thinking they are if you like if it makes you feel better.(sorry bout the
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 1 8:48 AM
                        > HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
                        > hand bow.
                        >
                        >

                        You see only one mechanical moving part. That's the difference.

                        //You can go on thinking
                        they are if you like if it makes you feel
                        better.(sorry bout the sarcasm, Im frustrated)//

                        Don't get frustrated. This isn't worth an ulcer.

                        Howard




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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