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Fw: [Elfsea] Results of Fearghus' surgery

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  • lizdenpeters@juno.com
    Forwarded by request. Nuala ... From: Vicki Marsh To: Elfsea Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:20:11 -0600 Subject:
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 30, 2001
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      Forwarded by request.

      Nuala

      --------- Forwarded message ----------
      From: "Vicki Marsh" <XaraXene@...>
      To: "Elfsea" <elfsea@...>
      Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:20:11 -0600
      Subject: [Elfsea] Results of Fearghus' surgery

      Xene here:

      Arabella is too exhausted to write this herself, so she asked me to let
      everyone know how Fearghus is doing.

      The surgeon was unable to complete the surgery for prostate cancer due to
      complications from Fearghus's post-Polio Syndrome. The plan of action is
      now to treat it with radiation and hormonal therapy. Fearghus should be
      coming home this weekend. He is in good spirits and feels better now
      that
      they have a plan of treatment.

      Also, Fearghus and Arabella have the @home accounts, and their e-mails
      addresses may be down for awhile after tomorrow.

      Arabella requested that this information be forwarded to the Archery
      list,
      which I am not on.

      As soon as I hear of anything else, I'll send the information on.

      Xene / Vicki

      _______________________________________________
      Elfsea mailing list
      Elfsea@...
      http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/elfsea
    • Ken Taylor
      I m sure this must be a long and tried debate but I ll throw out a lure and see what other people think anyway. Maybe you guys can just gie me links to old
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 30, 2001
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        I'm sure this must be a long and tried debate but I'll
        throw out a lure and see what other people think
        anyway. Maybe you guys can just gie me links to old
        discussion regarding the following.... (lol)


        Okay, being new to the SCA and Archery, I can't get
        slammed too hard (yeah, right) so I'll ask...

        Who was it who thought that Crossbow and Bow could
        even be closely resembled in regards to competition
        and performance? And why hasn't it been changed? The
        ONLY thing they really have in common is wind
        factor... that I can see anyhow. It's like comparing a
        rifle and a pistol... sorta. Either way, it's apples
        and oranges.

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      • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
        Oh boy o boy! Did you ever just open up a can of worms! I may even agree with you, but, get ready, here comes a flood of tyrrades. Nice knowing you!
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 30, 2001
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          Oh boy o boy! Did you ever just open up a can of worms! I may even agree
          with you, but, get ready, here comes a flood of tyrrades. Nice knowing
          you!
          Sympathetically,
          -Geoffrei


          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
        • atruemark@aol.com
          In a message dated 11/30/01 6:40:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... Aha! Another pot that gets stirred, with interesting results. I, personally, feel that a
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 30, 2001
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            In a message dated 11/30/01 6:40:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
            kdtaylor611@... writes:


            > Who was it who thought that Crossbow and Bow could
            > even be closely resembled in regards to competition
            > and performance? And why hasn't it been changed? The
            > ONLY thing they really have in common is wind
            > factor... that I can see anyhow. It's like comparing a
            > rifle and a pistol... sorta. Either way, it's apples
            > and oranges.
            >
            >

            Aha! Another pot that gets stirred, with interesting results. I,
            personally, feel that a crossbow has an "unfair advantage" against a handbow,
            in that the string is held by a mechanical device at full draw (no
            possiblility of string creep) and the mechanical holding device allows for
            much more consistent release. In AnTir, the target archery rules are written
            such that a crossbow cannot compete against a handbow in any official
            competition, but must compete only against other crossbows in its own class.
            I am known as a handbow shooter, so I may be biased in this regard, but when
            I feel the need to "answer the challenge" against crossbows, I simply
            unlimber my Alistair period style crossbow and let fly. The results are
            usually satisfactory.

            Andras Truemark, OGGS


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • wyvern@megahits.com
            ... Why hasn t what been changed and by whom? Every SCA competition is independent of every other SCA competition. When someone sponsors an event or a
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 30, 2001
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              > Who was it who thought that Crossbow and Bow could
              > even be closely resembled in regards to competition
              > and performance? And why hasn't it been changed?

              Why hasn't what been changed and by whom? Every SCA
              competition is independent of every other SCA competition. When
              someone sponsors an event or a competition at an event, it's up to
              them to select the rules for competition. In my experience, some
              choose to establish different divisions or even differnet competitions
              based on equipment, some don't.

              Personally, I typically prefer well balanced competition designs that
              don't drastically favor one type of equipment over another. The only
              'division' I'm really concerned about is that all equipment meets
              SCA standards.

              You'll occasionally hear people whining about, "It's not fair that I
              have to shoot against people using XYZ when I'm using ABC," but
              those people are missing the point. You *choose* the type of
              equipment you shoot with, you *choose* the competitions you
              enter or don't enter. If you're shooting for the love of the sport, it
              doesn't matter -- you'll shoot whenever you can. If you're shooting
              primarily to win competitions geared specifically to the equipment
              you've chosen to shoot, you'll probably find your options limited in
              the SCA.

              (As for apples and oranges, the objective of most SCA
              competitions is to place an arrow on a specific target from a
              specific distance. What mechanism an archer uses to place it
              there is up to the archer and every archer has the same options as
              every other archer. Ultimately, that's about as 'apples to apples' as
              you can get. =)

              YIS,
              Macsen
              (Who shoots both longbow and crossbow and has been known to
              switch off between the two in competitions that allow it.)
            • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
              ... eh hem Ok, here are my thoughts ... similar to what has been said by others already. Yes, there are differences ... but the unbalancing factor is one
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 30, 2001
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                >Who was it who thought that Crossbow and Bow could
                >even be closely resembled in regards to competition
                >and performance?

                'eh hem'

                Ok, here are my thoughts ... similar to what has been said by others already.

                Yes, there are differences ... but the 'unbalancing factor' is one of the
                shoots that you are shooting. If crossbows are cleaning about the
                competition, usually the shoots are designed in a way that allows
                that. The shoots CAN BE designed to equalize all factors considered. This
                is actually something that I have been trying to do alot of research into
                lately ... planning the 'equal' shoot ...

                As a general overriding statement ... (so yes, expect this to be WRONG) ...
                the big difference is that crossbows are more accurate, and bows are
                faster. (Yes, there are VERY fast crossbowmen out there, just as there are
                VERY accurate bowmen ... and these classifications of people are going to
                WIN, because they have the best of both worlds, and they have had to WORK
                at it.)

                But anyway ... this means that a 'balance' needs to be struck, between
                speed, and accuracy, in a competition. Royal Rounds are a good example of
                where it is 'not quite balanced'. At the high levels, at a score of 100,
                yes, it is balanced. But as you get into lower score brackets, it becomes
                more crossbow friendly.

                The trick is to balance the scores for 'speed shooters', and 'accuracy
                shooters'. Now, this DOESN'T mean to have equal numbers of speed and
                accuracy shoots (IKAC style). Why not? Because speed shoots inherently,
                if scored similarly, have more potential score. The important system is to
                make sure that any amount of 'points' in a competition that can be scored
                by accuracy, a similar amount should be able to be scored by speed.

                Now, there are also other ways to equalize besides that. There are other
                strengths/differences in the two styles. For example, the ability to
                'move'. Bowmen are MUCH more mobile than crossbowmen. Around here it is a
                common practice to have 'moving' shoots. Have 6-9 man targets lined up in
                a row, and have a time limit (30secs/etc) to run down the row shooting the
                different targets. Bowmen are quite amazing at this, some not even
                breaking stride. Crossbowmen on the other hand very quickly show their
                limitations. Usually running in between two targets, cocking, firing at
                the one they past, cocking, fire at the next one ... run two more targets
                down, start over. It is VERY slow.

                I have been to shoots before that were impossible for a 'normal
                crossbowmen' to win. Where there might have been 20 targets, but one was a
                speed one, and was possible to score over 20 points ... and all the rest of
                the targets only added up to 19 points. It was SO biased to this one speed
                shoot, that a fast bowmen who then did reasonably well on the rest of the
                targets didn't give a crossbowmen a chance. In this case, the 'balancing'
                was too far.

                You can find other ways as well ... So in summation, don't blame the
                crossbowmen (or the bowmen), blame the specific shoot.

                Siegfried


                ______________________________________________________________________
                Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust Barony of Highland Foorde
                Baronial Web Minister http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org
              • Howpatn@cs.com
                ... Actually, it isn t. It greatly depends on the person using the weapon, more the weapon itself. A crossbowman matched against a longbowman of equal skill
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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                  :
                  > ONLY thing they really have in common is wind
                  > factor... that I can see anyhow. It's like comparing a
                  > rifle and a pistol... sorta. Either way, it's apples
                  > and oranges.
                  >

                  Actually, it isn't. It greatly depends on the person using the weapon, more
                  the weapon itself. A crossbowman matched against a longbowman of equal skill
                  would probably be an interesting match.
                  You aren't mixing apples and oranges just different types of apples each with
                  its own distinct advantages and disanvantages.

                  Howard of Brockenhurst


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ken Taylor
                  Dont you think the applied physics of the two are quite different? They REALLY are. Comparing a longbow, a compound and a recurve is apples and different
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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                    Dont you think the applied physics of the two are
                    quite different? They REALLY are. Comparing a longbow,
                    a compound and a recurve is apples and different
                    apples, NOT a Crossbow and (any) bow Handbow.

                    (and please dont tell me about the "they both (xbow
                    and bow) get the arrow/bolt to the target" speech. A
                    motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
                    but do it quite differently.)

                    :)

                    > > ONLY thing they really have in common is wind
                    > > factor... that I can see anyhow. It's like
                    > comparing a
                    > > rifle and a pistol... sorta. Either way, it's
                    > apples
                    > > and oranges.
                    > >
                    >
                    > Actually, it isn't. It greatly depends on the person
                    > using the weapon, more
                    > the weapon itself. > removed]
                    >
                    >


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                  • wyvern@megahits.com
                    ... And yet they both rely on the same principles of internal combustion to do it. They re just different applications of the same basic technology. Ditto
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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                      > (and please dont tell me about the "they both (xbow
                      > and bow) get the arrow/bolt to the target" speech. A
                      > motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
                      > but do it quite differently.)

                      And yet they both rely on the same principles of internal
                      combustion to do it. They're just different applications of the same
                      basic technology. Ditto handbow and crossbow -- they're more
                      alike than they are different.

                      YIS,
                      Macsen
                    • Ken Taylor
                      applications of the same basic technology HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a hand bow. C mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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                        "applications of the same basic technology"

                        HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
                        hand bow.

                        C'mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
                        they are if you like if it makes you feel
                        better.(sorry bout the sarcasm, Im frustrated)

                        Have you ever taken a physics class? (Im not busting
                        on you, its a serious question) If youre an engineer
                        also you may understand where Im going with this.

                        Im done.. lol... I dont want to make anyone mad at
                        me.. sorry.



                        > And yet they both rely on the same principles of
                        > internal
                        > combustion to do it. They're just different
                        > applications of the same
                        > basic technology. Ditto handbow and crossbow --
                        > they're more
                        > alike than they are different.
                        >
                        > YIS,
                        > Macsen
                        >
                        >
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                      • wyvern@megahits.com
                        ... And yet the same basic principles are at work. The central concept of both forms of the weapon is to utilize the stored energy of a bent bow to propel an
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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                          > "applications of the same basic technology"
                          >
                          > HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
                          > hand bow.

                          And yet the same basic principles are at work. The central
                          concept of both forms of the weapon is to utilize the stored energy
                          of a bent bow to propel an arrow. Everything else is just
                          embellishment of that same central principle. The only notable
                          difference between the two is that crossbows add a fixed draw
                          length and mechanically assisted release into the equation. (That's
                          one or two extra moving parts. Mechanical releases are also used
                          with handbows -- just not in the SCA because they aren't period.
                          Unless you count thumbrings. Which are another moving part... =)

                          > C'mon, theyre NOTHING alike. You can go on thinking
                          > they are if you like if it makes you feel better.(sorry bout
                          > the sarcasm, Im frustrated)

                          It's not about me "feeling better," it's about recognizing the simple
                          facts of the matter.

                          > Have you ever taken a physics class? (Im not busting
                          > on you, its a serious question) If youre an engineer
                          > also you may understand where Im going with this.

                          Yes, in fact I studied engineering. I also shoot both longbows and
                          crossbows, make arrows and bolts, and build/repair crossbows.
                          That's why I know for a fact that the basic principles of operation of
                          both are identical.

                          > Im done.. lol... I dont want to make anyone mad at
                          > me.. sorry.

                          Don't feel bad. Irrational fear of crossbows is period. ;)

                          YIS,
                          Macsen
                        • atruemark@aol.com
                          In an earlier post I stated that the crossbow provided an unfair advantage due to its fixed string position and mechanical release. I would have been more
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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                            In an earlier post I stated that the crossbow provided an "unfair advantage"
                            due to its fixed string position and mechanical release. I would have been
                            more accurate to have stated the crossbow provides an "unfair mechanical
                            advantage," since I would be the first to acknowledge that shooting a period
                            style crossbow requires every bit as much knowledge, expertise, practice and
                            cussing as a handbow, just in different areas than the handbow.

                            For example, beyond the basics of shooting a handbow well, almost the
                            entirety of what I practice is to achieve the "mechanical" results that the
                            crossbow possesses as part of its design; a consistent draw length (anchor
                            point) and "mechanical" release (the non-effort that gets my fingers off the
                            string in the least invasive manner).
                            Truly, when my arrows do not go exactly where I intended I can almost always
                            point to one of these two factors as being the culprit - either I "let down"
                            or "crept" or my release was less than perfect. "Aim," in my belief (and
                            teaching) is the least of what directs my arrows to the proper part of the
                            target - Good form, including, most importantly a consistent anchor and
                            clean release, dictates the eventual placement of the arrow.

                            Conversly, when shooting a period crossbow, it everything about where the
                            butt of the bow is placed on (or in) my shoulder, how the bow is canted, how
                            I drew the string back, how the bolts are made and balanced, how I am
                            breathing when I actuate the mechanical release aid (trigger), etc. Again,
                            my practices become about being as "mechanical" as possible, doing all the
                            right things all the time, consistently.

                            Having said all that - and acknowledging the "balancing" factor of the
                            quicker rate of fire for the handbow vs the crossbow (with the exception of a
                            few crossbow shooters who have figured that one out as well) in the speed
                            rounds - I will still state that crossbows should not compete heads up
                            against handbows. It is historically accurate that crossbows supplanted
                            handbows in Europe as the "shaft thrower" of choice, only in turn to be
                            supplanted by the firearm. It is easier to learn to shoot the crossbow
                            effectively than it is to learn to shoot the handbow to the same level,
                            primarily due to its inherent "unfair mechanical advantages."

                            All the above is my personal opinion. It is based on what I can do with a
                            handbow and what I have learned to do with a period style crossbow over the
                            past five years. I invoke Master Ailean's name here as testimony that I
                            enjoy the crossbow and so am not tainted by a dislike of the apparatus - I
                            merely point out the differences.

                            Andras Truemark, OGGS
                            Ludicrous Bowman (Handbow)
                            Grandmaster Bowman (Crossbow)


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Howpatn@cs.com
                            ... Both motorcycles and cars operate on the same principle, converting the heat of burning fuel into mechanical energy. The major, other than size, difference
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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                              > motorcycle and a car get you from point A to point B,
                              > but do it quite differently.)
                              >

                              Both motorcycles and cars operate on the same principle, converting the heat
                              of burning fuel into mechanical energy. The major, other than size,
                              difference between the motorcycle and cars is the number of wheels. I am
                              licensed to drive both and Class A vehicles too.

                              With crossbows and bows the major difference is the in the mechanics not the
                              propulsion. Both use a bent stick as the propulsion device. It is still the
                              shooter more than the weapon that is the deciding factor.

                              Howard


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Howpatn@cs.com
                              ... You see only one mechanical moving part. That s the difference. //You can go on thinking they are if you like if it makes you feel better.(sorry bout the
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 1, 2001
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                                > HARDLY... I dont see more than one moving part on a
                                > hand bow.
                                >
                                >

                                You see only one mechanical moving part. That's the difference.

                                //You can go on thinking
                                they are if you like if it makes you feel
                                better.(sorry bout the sarcasm, Im frustrated)//

                                Don't get frustrated. This isn't worth an ulcer.

                                Howard




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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