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RE: Period vs. modern

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  • Ken Cooke
    Hi everyone, I am one of those that lurks, most of the time. I have been watching several interesting threads go by and I thought that I would make some
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 31, 1999
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      Hi everyone,

      I am one of those that lurks, most of the time. I have been watching
      several interesting threads go by and I thought that I would make some
      comments.

      I am new to the SCA and have only been on the list for a short time. I am
      sorry to see tempers flare so much and I hope it all settles down for the
      better.

      First I would like to comment on documentation. Archery was not only a
      sport of interest, it was mandated by law, for several hundred years.
      Every man over age 12 was to own a bow and at least two arrows and they
      were to shoot on every holy day. This was everyday life. Over the all
      these years, I can imagine that arrows were kept and carried by just about
      any practical method that we can think of. Would this be documented?
      Probably not any more than how to cut and store firewood, although, I
      would like to see as much documentation as can be found. The only things
      that would be documented would be the important things, like battles,
      showing the Kings archers (the paid guys), not the militia gathered on the
      way to war, they were just peasants after all. They would not have worn
      uniforms and would have used their everyday tackle.

      Someone asked about documentation on cresting. Again, this would have been
      common practice and no-one would pay much attention to documenting it. Did
      they crest their arrows? Lets think, one, maybe two fletchers in a town,
      all their work looking similar. Then give those to 15-20 guys and let them
      shoot them at the butts. Now for a little human nature "that's mine!!"
      and we have arrows that are marked in some way. Competitive guys, "mine
      are better than yours" and we have rather fancy cresting. I personally
      can not believe that they did not crest arrows. Besides, everything that I
      have read about competitions etc., there was never any question as to arrow
      ownership.

      After about three hundred years of this kind of activity, I would think
      that none of us are coming up with anything new, documented or not.

      I am new to the game, but I am not new to archery. I come from a long line
      of archers and I am fairly proficient at the craft. I like the idea of
      encouraging period or as near period as possible equipment. I do feel,
      however, that the society is lacking in that little extra effort to
      encourage it. In fact, I think that the way things are now, they are
      discouraging it. I was recently at an event and listened to several
      archers discussing the fact that they were not giving up their recurves as
      long as there was no advantage in the competition. In other words, as long
      as it is allowed, they are going to use it because it is easier to shoot
      and therefore easier to win. They are not stretching for the next level
      because there is no incentive offered to do so. I shoot a long bow, well,
      a modern wood and glass flat bow that is real close to a long bow (I am
      still learning the art of bow making and can not afford to buy one already
      made). I am looking for that next level, then I see some of the prizes
      that can be won and I wonder if I should use one of my recurves in the
      competition. I am at a disadvantage shooting against those easier to shoot
      bows, and they are easier to shoot. I would like to see more people
      shooting more period equipment.

      I also feel that this can be taken too far. Self nocked arrows are not as
      safe as glue on nocks and much more costly to replace when you hit them. I
      once saw pictures of horn nocks that looked a lot like some of the plastic
      ones you can buy today. I think they were Mongolian. Arrows were all made
      about a cloth yard long, not custom fit to the individual. I am not making
      strings out of linen, hemp or silk. The modern materials are much better
      and I don't want to lose my bow to a broken string. So, how realistic do we
      get?

      I would enjoy comments on this. E-mail me privately if you like, I always
      enjoy talking archery. Thank you for letting me ramble on. I apologize
      for any inaccuracies, as I am not a scholar, just a hobbyist.

      Karrick
    • James W. Pratt Jr.
      It was coined by the Air Force first. It means Keep It Simple... Stupid. Retired before I got too old. James
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 31, 1999
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        It was coined by the Air Force first. It means Keep It Simple... Stupid.

        Retired before I got too old.

        James


        >From: Robert L Brunnemer <hugewheels@...>
        >
        >What is the KISS principal? The only one I can think of is the band
        >(Knights in Satans Sanctuary)
        >
        >Have a nice day!!!
        >Robert
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        >Tha mi a'fluich mi kilt!!!
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      • John Edgerton
        Those of you that do make period style gear have a chance to display it to other archers and interested people at this Pennsic. You can enter period style
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 31, 1999
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          Those of you that do make period style gear have a chance to display it
          to other archers and interested people at this Pennsic. You can enter
          period style archery gear that you have made and get to help judge the
          work of others and to hear their opinions and comments on your work. It
          is a chance to learn and share information. The Archery Masterwork Judging
          will held on Wed in the marshals tent on the archery range from 4:00 to
          5:00 pm. If you are interested check the pre Pennsic flyer for
          information.

          How many of you that do make you own gear were planing on entering the
          competition? How many of you had heard about it? It is just one way that
          we can help to encourage the use and construction of period archery gear.
          Even if you do not make your own gear, yet. You sould consider going just
          to see what is being made and to talk to and learn from those that are
          doing so allready.

          The next AMJ will be in Nov at Great Western War in Caid. You can either
          bring your own entry, have someone else bring it for you or contact the
          person running it to see about the possibility of mailing your entry in.

          The next after that is in Feb at Estrella War in Atenvelt.

          Then I hope that it will be run at Gulf wars and Lillies. But for the
          last two years, I have been unable to find anyone to run it there. Are
          there any volunters?

          If we want to see more period gear in the SCA, then those that know how
          to make it should teach more archers how to to it. And those that learn
          from them need to then teach others. If you do not have a sca bowyer in
          your area you might consider asking one from another area to come for a
          week end and teach a basic class. Pay their way and expenses, etc. Or if
          you can not find a sca bowyer, locate a mundane one and pay them.

          When I joined the SCA in ASII, there were only about two people that made
          some armor. But, consider the quanity and quality of the armorers we have
          now. If we work at it then we could do the same for bowyers, fletchers, etc.

          Jon
        • j'lynn yeates
          ... not necessarily so ... in what particular culture, what time period, whose law code .. ??? alway remember the SCA covers a wide scope of cultures and time
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 31, 1999
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            On 31 Jul 99, at 18:43, Ken Cooke wrote:

            > First I would like to comment on documentation. Archery was not only a
            > sport of interest, it was mandated by law, for several hundred years.
            > Every man over age 12 was to own a bow and at least two arrows and they
            > were to shoot on every holy day. This was everyday life.

            not necessarily so ... in what particular culture, what time period, whose law
            code .. ???

            alway remember the SCA covers a wide scope of cultures and time periods (i do
            so miss my pscho-aztec friend of years past .... g). in many of these
            cultures/times the bow is iirrelevent, in many it is predominant. as a general
            rule, in the SCA, a blanket statement is always a dangerous thing .. as it
            tends to catch fire so easily (g).

            for many of us, in our primary cultural affiliations, archery is a novelty or
            an irrelevance (keltoi for one .. spear was much more a primary) ... in my
            case, luckily i have a additional eastern bent that brings it back into the
            primary fold (things scyhtian, mongol, ...) ... by my nature, i do so love
            hybridization in all things.

            anyone got any plans / designs for eastern bow / arrow cases ... got some ideas
            for a belt rig that moves to the harley's saddle bag mounts for secure
            transport and open for refinements ... i ask you what could be more "mongol"
            than that idea (g)

            'wolf
            .. who chooses to live in the *current* middle ages



            ... truth is the sword of us all (lords of the new church)
          • Ken Cooke
            Wolf, Sorry that I was not more specific. I meant in England. I am sorry that my memory fails me on who it was that first made it law. I used to keep a
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 31, 1999
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              Wolf,

              Sorry that I was not more specific. I meant in England. I am sorry that
              my memory fails me on who it was that first made it law. I used to keep a
              notebook of these interesting facts but I have moved twice since I last saw
              it. I think (I may be wrong here) that it was Henry III, around 1230?,
              that made it a law and it was a law for right around 300 years. I need to
              go back to the library for any more information.

              Karrick
            • Chris Nogy
              Sir Jon I will run the thing at Lilies. All you had to do was ask... Kaz
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 1, 1999
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                Sir Jon

                I will run the thing at Lilies. All you had to do was ask...

                Kaz

                > From: John Edgerton <sirjon@...>, on 8/1/99 11:14 AM:
                > From: John Edgerton <sirjon@...>
                >
                > Those of you that do make period style gear have a chance to display it
                > to other archers and interested people at this Pennsic. You can enter
                > period style archery gear that you have made and get to help judge the
                > work of others and to hear their opinions and comments on your work. It
                > is a chance to learn and share information. The Archery Masterwork Judging
                > will held on Wed in the marshals tent on the archery range from 4:00 to
                > 5:00 pm. If you are interested check the pre Pennsic flyer for
                > information.
                >
                > How many of you that do make you own gear were planing on entering the
                > competition? How many of you had heard about it? It is just one way that
                > we can help to encourage the use and construction of period archery gear.
                > Even if you do not make your own gear, yet. You sould consider going just
                > to see what is being made and to talk to and learn from those that are
                > doing so allready.
                >
                > The next AMJ will be in Nov at Great Western War in Caid. You can either
                > bring your own entry, have someone else bring it for you or contact the
                > person running it to see about the possibility of mailing your entry in.
                >
                > The next after that is in Feb at Estrella War in Atenvelt.
                >
                > Then I hope that it will be run at Gulf wars and Lillies. But for the
                > last two years, I have been unable to find anyone to run it there. Are
                > there any volunters?
                >
                > If we want to see more period gear in the SCA, then those that know how
                > to make it should teach more archers how to to it. And those that learn
                > from them need to then teach others. If you do not have a sca bowyer in
                > your area you might consider asking one from another area to come for a
                > week end and teach a basic class. Pay their way and expenses, etc. Or if
                > you can not find a sca bowyer, locate a mundane one and pay them.
                >
                > When I joined the SCA in ASII, there were only about two people that made
                > some armor. But, consider the quanity and quality of the armorers we have
                > now. If we work at it then we could do the same for bowyers, fletchers, etc.
                >
                > Jon
                >
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              • Alberic
                ... Ken: If you mean Esh, he s now *sir* Esh, the society s one functioning Jaguar Knight. (X-squire brother of mine, and a very cool life unit.) Haven t seen
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 1, 1999
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                  >
                  > On 31 Jul 99, at 18:43, Ken Cooke wrote:
                  >
                  > > First I would like to comment on documentation. Archery was not only a
                  > > sport of interest, it was mandated by law, for several hundred years.
                  > > Every man over age 12 was to own a bow and at least two arrows and they
                  > > were to shoot on every holy day. This was everyday life.
                  >
                  > not necessarily so ... in what particular culture, what time period, whose law
                  > code .. ???
                  >
                  > alway remember the SCA covers a wide scope of cultures and time periods (i do
                  > so miss my pscho-aztec friend of years past .... g). in many of these
                  > cultures/times the bow is iirrelevent, in many it is predominant. as a general
                  > rule, in the SCA, a blanket statement is always a dangerous thing .. as it
                  > tends to catch fire so easily (g).

                  Ken:

                  If you mean Esh, he's now *sir* Esh, the society's one functioning
                  Jaguar Knight.
                  (X-squire brother of mine, and a very cool life unit.) Haven't seen him
                  lately, but I'm in Caid these days.

                  As far as legally required archery, as best my memory serves before
                  caffine, the only area where this was a legal requirement was Tudor
                  England. Exact dates unknown without massive infusion of caffine, but I
                  get the sense that it was roughly 1200-1415 or so, or at least in that
                  ballpark. The idea behind the law was to maintain a certain skill among
                  the populace so that the king could "recruit" archers wherever he went,
                  and have enough bodies and bolts to stop or blunt a charge.

                  FWIW,
                  Alberic
                • John Edgerton
                  ... Great. Now do we have any volunters for Gulf? :-) Jon
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 1, 1999
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                    On Sun, 1 Aug 1999, Chris Nogy wrote:

                    > From: Chris Nogy <cnogy@...>
                    >
                    > Sir Jon
                    >
                    > I will run the thing at Lilies. All you had to do was ask...
                    >
                    > Kaz


                    Great. Now do we have any volunters for Gulf? :-)

                    Jon


                    >
                    > > From: John Edgerton <sirjon@...>, on 8/1/99 11:14 AM:
                    > > From: John Edgerton <sirjon@...>
                    > >
                    > > Those of you that do make period style gear have a chance to display it
                    > > to other archers and interested people at this Pennsic. You can enter
                    > > period style archery gear that you have made and get to help judge the
                    > > work of others and to hear their opinions and comments on your work. It
                    > > is a chance to learn and share information. The Archery Masterwork Judging
                    > > will held on Wed in the marshals tent on the archery range from 4:00 to
                    > > 5:00 pm. If you are interested check the pre Pennsic flyer for
                    > > information.
                    > >
                    > > How many of you that do make you own gear were planing on entering the
                    > > competition? How many of you had heard about it? It is just one way that
                    > > we can help to encourage the use and construction of period archery gear.
                    > > Even if you do not make your own gear, yet. You sould consider going just
                    > > to see what is being made and to talk to and learn from those that are
                    > > doing so allready.
                    > >
                    > > The next AMJ will be in Nov at Great Western War in Caid. You can either
                    > > bring your own entry, have someone else bring it for you or contact the
                    > > person running it to see about the possibility of mailing your entry in.
                    > >
                    > > The next after that is in Feb at Estrella War in Atenvelt.
                    > >
                    > > Then I hope that it will be run at Gulf wars and Lillies. But for the
                    > > last two years, I have been unable to find anyone to run it there. Are
                    > > there any volunters?
                    > >
                    > > If we want to see more period gear in the SCA, then those that know how
                    > > to make it should teach more archers how to to it. And those that learn
                    > > from them need to then teach others. If you do not have a sca bowyer in
                    > > your area you might consider asking one from another area to come for a
                    > > week end and teach a basic class. Pay their way and expenses, etc. Or if
                    > > you can not find a sca bowyer, locate a mundane one and pay them.
                    > >
                    > > When I joined the SCA in ASII, there were only about two people that made
                    > > some armor. But, consider the quanity and quality of the armorers we have
                    > > now. If we work at it then we could do the same for bowyers, fletchers, etc.
                    > >
                    > > Jon
                    > >
                    > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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                    > > For details, including our weekly drawing, go to
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                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
                    > > of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
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                  • D Humberson
                    Ian, Try starting with a straight-grained hickory or ash plank for your first couple - the kids appreciste em, and they re way cheaper. Ragnar K
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 2, 1999
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                      Ian,

                      Try starting with a straight-grained hickory or ash plank for your first
                      couple - the kids appreciste 'em, and they're way cheaper.

                      Ragnar K


                      >From: "John Rockwell" <phxrock@...>
                      >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@onelist.com
                      >To: <SCA-Archery@onelist.com>
                      >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Period vs. modern
                      >Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:51:06 -0700
                      >
                      >From: "John Rockwell" <phxrock@...>
                      >
                      >Sitting here and reading the post below it got me thinking. And
                      >remembering
                      >that I have some Osage and some Hickory that is 2 years old. I have the
                      >Bowyers Bible #1 but I am a hands on person. I purchased this wood to make
                      >a period longbow. But with just the book this wood will sit and continue to
                      >dry until I can find someone that can work with me. End result I want to
                      >shoot period and I can't. So for now I will shoot my 62" 55# recurve and
                      >enjoy.
                      >
                      >Ian Griffen
                      >
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