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RE: [SCA-Archery] Change of heart

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  • Carolus von Eulenhorst
    A short thought on guilds in general and an archers cuild in particular. Beware much of this may be biased by my own kingdom s anthropology. A guild is a
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 2, 2001
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      A short thought on guilds in general and an archers cuild in particular. Beware much of this may be biased by my own kingdom's anthropology. A guild is a support structure to teach and assist its members in attaining exellence. As such, it often has internal rankings which allow its members to determine how they are progressing. As long as the guild is open to all from the rankest beginner on up there is no "shadow peerage". Archery is one of the activities of the SCA which, in many places, does not have a substantial body of participants to train newcomers. As evidence look at the nember of posts to this list for experienced assistance. In this, a inter-kingdom guild is of more use than an intra-kingdom one. No, an open guild is not a threat. However, if we do our jobs right, train archers, and promote mastery of our subject then the sheer numbers of competent archers becomes a threat and must be dealt with. In the past this has meant inclusion in the structure of the SCA as we have expanded our knowledge. After all it is better to have a skilled person one of "us" than have them as one of "them".
      Carolus von Eulenhorst

      ------Original Message------
      From: "Evian Blackthorn" <theweb@...>
      To: SCA-MissileCombat <SCA-MissileCombat@yahoogroups.com>, SCA-SWAG <SCA-SWAG@yahoogroups.com>, SCA-Archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: February 2, 2001 10:47:08 AM GMT
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Change of heart


      Macsen asked me, "I'm curious as to what could possibly have brought on such a sudden and decisive change of heart?"
      Carolus answered in better words than I could come up with, "We must avoid, at all costs, ANY appearance of creating a "shadow peerage" or an ettempt at an end run around the existing power structure."
      However, I am again revising my stance slightly.
      Sir Jon wrote, "I have decided to make the basis for membership more general.

      Membership in the Fellowship would be given to:

      1) All holders of any kingdom level archery specific award, either armigerous on non armigerous.

      2) All holders of a kingdom level award not specific to archery, but granted for their skills in shooting, archery crafts or service in archery. This would include the OL and OP and any non peerage orders or awards."

      If the Grand Fellowship is established based on these membership requirements only, I am not opposed to it. I just think it is unnecessary. If I go to an event out of Kingdom, and meet someone with a danglie I don't recognize, I might very well ask them what it is, and what it's for. If it is for archery, I'll talk archery if they want to do so, and I do also. If it's for brewing, I'll talk brewing if they want to do so, and I do also (I don't brew, but I drink it). If it is for something else, I'll either talk that subject with them, or not, depending on how I feel, how they strike me, and my knowledge level in the subject. I assume other people do the same. That is how I have met most of the out of Kingdom people I know. They asked me about some danglie (maybe just a favor) I was wearing, or I asked them. If the idea of the Grand Fellowship is to provide a recognizable insignia to identify EXCELLENCE in archery, the proposal above fails. If it is to provide a recognizable insignia to identify an archer, period, it fails. That leaves it only the ability to provide a recognizable insignia to identify an archery who has received 'some' form of recognition from his Kingdom for archery. Okay, I can live with that, but really, who cares. I am just as interested (maybe more so) in the archer who has not yet been recognized. If I want to see just how good he is, I can only find that out on the range, or by looking at their work, in the bowyer/fletcher field.
      My feeling about the guild, however, have not changed back. By setting up a Guild structure, either with a single rank (for persons who have demonstrated EXCELLANCE in archery), or a multi-tiered ranking system (apprentice, Journeyman, Master), there will be some (a few, or many, depending on how strong the Guild is) who will PERCEIVE the guild as "a "shadow peerage" or an ettempt at an end run around the existing power structure". Even if it is not. It is the perception that counts. Siegfreid Sebastian Faust, a while back wrote, " In a sense, yes, maybe, one might see this as a 'mini-peerage', but no more so than the White Scarves are (and most I know are pretty adamant that they aren't, don't consider themselves to be, and wouldn't want to be considered as such)." Regardless of how the White Scarves see themselves, there are still a lot of people in the SCA who see the whole White Scarf thing as an attempt to get recognition as Peers, without the Peerage being there. A 'mini-peerage', 'quasi-peerage', or 'pseudo-peerage', which ever term you like. We must not let that happen to the archer's community, and IMnot soHO, the 'Grand Fellowship', if it recognizes "Excellance", and the Guild recognition of "Excellance" will be perceived in much the same light as a White Scarf. That is why I had such a sudden and decisive change of heart. Thank you Ragnar, for opening my eyes to all the implications.
      By the way. Sorry, Jean-Paul. Look for the quotation marks. Each quote from Ragnar starts and ends with ". My writing might use the marks in the body, but none start and end that way. That might or might not help. Otherwise, read Ragnars post.
      Evian Blackthorn
      of THE WEB





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      In service to the dream,
      Carolus von Eulenhorst
    • wyvern@megahits.com
      ... Discussions haven t gotten that far on the SWAG list, but that s the direction I d be interested in taking it. ... Why do you charaterize a number of
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 2, 2001
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        > progressing. As long as the guild is open to all from the rankest
        > beginner on up there is no "shadow peerage". Archery is one of the

        Discussions haven't gotten that far on the SWAG list, but that's the
        direction I'd be interested in taking it.

        > train archers, and promote mastery of our subject then the sheer
        > numbers of competent archers becomes a threat and must be dealt with.

        Why do you charaterize a number of competent archers as "a
        threat"? And to whom? And, IMHO, the SCA already *has* "a
        number of competent archers," doesn't it? Who's threatened now
        by the existence of all those competent archers?

        Macsen


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      • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
        Dear Carolous, Who would be the first Guild Masters and how would they arrive at that distinction? Would they come from the rank and file that are trying to
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 2, 2001
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          Dear Carolous,
          Who would be the first Guild Masters and how would they arrive at
          that distinction? Would they come from the rank and file that are trying
          to found the guild? Would they come from OP or OL?
          Who would decide?The guild must be very careful not to be run by Society
          misanthropes, or archers that sound good behind a keyboard, but don't
          look that good on the field. These are all concerns.
          They can be easily addressed, but here is where great care MUST be
          taken.
          -Geoffrei


          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
        • wyvern@megahits.com
          ... These are the sort of issues I expect will be discussed in time on the SWAG list. My personal opinion is that the Master Archers -- or whatever we end
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 2, 2001
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            > Who would be the first Guild Masters and how would they arrive at
            > that distinction? Would they come from the rank and file that are
            > trying to found the guild? Would they come from OP or OL? Who would

            These are the sort of issues I expect will be discussed in time on
            the SWAG list. My personal opinion is that the "Master Archers" --
            or whatever we end up calling them and *if* the concensus is to
            have guild rankings at all, would be chosen by the other members
            of the guild -- i.e. their peers in archery.

            Macsen


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          • Scott Jaqua
            I believe the below to be very true. Many years ago, I fought hard to gain even a little acceptance for Archery in the Kingdom of Caid. I believe as an
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 2, 2001
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              I believe the below to be very true. Many years ago, I fought hard to gain even a little acceptance for Archery in the Kingdom of Caid. I believe as an accepted period activity, it is now on sound ground (it wasn't at that time). Then the battle (if you will call it such) was over archery as a period activity vs archers as the natural enemy of the chivalry (the whole peasant can take down a Knight thing). The perception at the time was that "Yes of course archery is period, but it doesn't fit in with my vision of the DREAM(tm)". The fight to overcome that view was long and hard. It mostly consisted of small baby steps. Every time someone pushed too hard or fast, we lost ground. We found the way to win the fight, was to be the best that we could be with out trying to look like we were showing-up the powers that be.
              The example of the Order of the White Scarf stated below is valid. In some respects it has been a curse to the Rapier community. However, the one saving grace has been that it is awarded by the crown. In some kingdoms, the order is polled about prospective members. In other kingdoms it is not. But in each case it is the crown that presents the award. And polling the order to me is no more then crown taking letters of recommendation. No matter what the award the crown is always going to look a little harder at a recommendation from someone that has the award.
              While in some kingdoms, Rapier is part of the established order of things. In others it is struggling for simple acceptance. It's my opinion that the White Scarf has not hurt the kingdom where it was founded. However, in other kingdoms it's making it a harder row to hoe for the rapier fighters there. Some do view it as a mini peerage (or a Jumped-up Grant putting on airs). In my opinion it is nothing more then the highest award for the marshal portions of the art of rapier. It is a grant level award in my kingdom and nothing more.

              Don Njall Olaf Hagerson
              (yup I'm one of those swishy pokey types as well)
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Evian Blackthorn


              (snip a lot of stuff)It is the perception that counts. Siegfreid Sebastian Faust, a while back wrote, " In a sense, yes, maybe, one might see this as a 'mini-peerage', but no more so than the White Scarves are (and most I know are pretty adamant that they aren't, don't consider themselves to be, and wouldn't want to be considered as such)." Regardless of how the White Scarves see themselves, there are still a lot of people in the SCA who see the whole White Scarf thing as an attempt to get recognition as Peers, without the Peerage being there. A 'mini-peerage', 'quasi-peerage', or 'pseudo-peerage', which ever term you like. We must not let that happen to the archer's community,............ (snip some more)



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Karl Sandhoff
              The threat is to the existing comfort zone of the existing power structure. Presently, the growing skill level of archers taken as a whole and the possibliity
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 2, 2001
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                The threat is to the existing comfort zone of the existing power
                structure. Presently, the growing skill level of archers taken as a
                whole and the possibliity of signifigant numbers of them becomming
                qualified for peerage level recognition is low. Thus, they can be safely
                ignored by the peerage structure now in place. As greater skill is
                attained and greater numbers of individuals attain that skill, it becomes
                a threat to the currently assumed position to continue to ignore them.
                As this increase occurs, the lack of recognition will become more
                apparent to the general populus and guestions as to the power structure's
                attitude will increase. It was this same pressure which occurred in the
                area of service which resulted in the awarding of the first Pelican. At
                that time it was assumed to be a one time event as there certainly
                couldn't be that many people willing to work that hard. As we have seen,
                that "one time" event changed the entire peerage structure.
                In service to the dream,
                Carolus von Eulenhorst
                eulenhorst@...

                On Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:19:15 -0500 wyvern@... writes:
                >> snip <<
                >> train archers, and promote mastery of our subject then the sheer
                >> numbers of competent archers becomes a threat and must be dealt
                >with.
                >
                >Why do you charaterize a number of competent archers as "a
                >threat"? And to whom? And, IMHO, the SCA already *has* "a
                >number of competent archers," doesn't it? Who's threatened now
                >by the existence of all those competent archers?
                >
                >Macsen
                >
                >
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