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Re: Archery company

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  • Alberic
    Robert: I generally find it easier to poke specific holes in proposals by listing individual problem cases, which I will do here shortly. First I m going to
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 6, 1999
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      Robert:

      I generally find it easier to poke specific holes in proposals by
      listing individual problem cases, which I will do here shortly. First
      I'm going to attempt to be as generally constructive as possible. (For
      me anyway.)

      The idea of a period archery company has merit, and is certainly a
      laudable goal, but it's loaded with traps for the unwary. How will you
      admit/select people?
      All of the proposed methods have serious problems. I would tend to
      recommend some sort of self-selection process, where an interested
      person would first decide that they want to be part of "the group" and
      then work on whatever they needed to do to qualify. Once those
      requirements were met, they'd be in.

      It's been my experience with similar things that it is best to start
      small and work up. Rather than trying to jump-start an SCA wide "period
      archery company", you'd have a greater chance of success by starting one
      in your local kingdom and working up from there, either by branching
      out, or by co-ordinating with archers in other kingdoms to start their
      own kingdom level groups that may eventually tie in together. For a
      group like this to get started, there needs to be at least one person
      with sufficient charisma pushing it, and that only works when the group
      is small enough for the "leader's" charisma to act. Once it gets bigger
      than that, you need a multitude of "little leaders" who can move their
      own groups, but are themselves moved by the "maximum leader".
      As I've been writing this, it occurs to me one good example of what I'm
      talking about both in terms of growth and organization is the early
      church. (No damnit! No religious arguments! I'm just using the
      structure of the church as an example! No! Down!) Anyway, to start,
      you have one person with a vision.
      He finds a group of like-minded folks, and eventually the all come to
      believe in his vision. They then go out and spread, each of the
      original core group finding another group of other like-minded folks to
      convert...and so it goes, much like a virus, it spreads. That was the
      growth phase. The maintenance phase shows the power structure as it
      evolved. Eventually, you wind up with the (early) medieval church. (In
      my cartoonish rendering.) Starting at the bottom, you have the local
      "parish" groups, which in the early days tended to be about 30-50
      people. Just enough for one charismatic individual to handle. Above
      there you had several intermediate groupings (who's names I've
      forgotten.) but essentially, you then took 30-50 of the parish leaders,
      and concentrated them into a group that could be influenced by a higher
      level charismatic...etc. Repeat that a few times, and you've got an
      archbishop, who reports to a cardinal who reports to a pope.

      The essential concept here is that there is a limit to the number of
      people that one person, no matter how charismatic, can
      influence/inspire/control. The trick that the early church figured out
      was to tie the whole mess together into groups that *could* be
      controlled by a succession of charismatic individuals.
      If you want to set up a society wide group, you could do worse than to
      take a page from a playbook that ruled the european world for nearly
      1300 years.
      (I'm not suggesting crusades, inquisition or anything like that, but
      take a good look at how the early church spread and organized itself.)

      Now, on to specific problem cases:

      Pistol crossbows: I'd have a hard time putting my hands on the exact
      citations, but my memory tells me of someone claiming to have documented
      pistol crossbows to medieval China, as well as one recovered as part of
      a ?Roman? period Egyptian tomb. (I remember the crossbow they built in
      replication of it, but I don't remember where they said they found the citation.)
      Black skeletonized Barnetts? Obviously not. Pistol crossbows as a
      blanket ban?
      Perhaps more thought should be given there.

      The 10 foot rule is a good one, and you shouldn't set it up so that it's
      impossible to introduce things later. (Meaning that just because we
      think something's not "period" now, in 1999, doesn't mean that we won't
      wake up next month and discover we were wrong. Don't write the rules to
      codify our current state of enlightenment.) Imagine how different the
      SCA would be if the "rules" of period reflected just what the people at
      that first costume party believed to be "historical". When I first got
      into the SCA, you could document your name from Tolkien Elvish. Need I
      say more?



      FWIW,
      Alberic
    • KC
      I think it should be open to period looking equipment. I like the 10 rule as a starting point. I still think it should be fairly general here so that there
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 6, 1999
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        I think it should be open to period looking equipment. I like the 10' rule
        as a starting point. I still think it should be fairly general here so
        that there is still something to work toward within the company as you get
        more and more real period.

        Karrick


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      • John Edgerton
        Also to be considered, would be the clothing of the bowman. Do you shoot your self yew bow in tennis shoes, jeans and period tunic? Should the standards, if
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 6, 1999
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          Also to be considered, would be the clothing of the bowman. Do you shoot
          your self yew bow in tennis shoes, jeans and period tunic?

          Should the standards, if any are set, just cover equiptment or should they
          cover the whole "look" of the archer?

          I favor the "ten foot rule".

          If all laminate longbows are not allowed, then that would also ban backed
          bows. Also there were longbows with recurved tips that show up in Duer
          etchings.


          Jon
        • Karl Sandhoff
          Comments on the three areas below: 1) There are clear and brown fibreglasses which are not recognizeable as such except under close scrutiny. In addition,
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 6, 1999
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            Comments on the three areas below:
            1)
            There are clear and brown fibreglasses which are not recognizeable as
            such except under close scrutiny. In addition, many bows from various
            regions around the world were laminated with sinew on the back just as we
            use fibreglass. Thus the concept, if not the material, is period.

            2)
            Many longbows were made of laminations of different woods as a proper
            stave from the division line of heartwood and sapwood was as rare as it
            is today and just as expensive, relatively. In addition, the longbow is
            just that, a "long" bow. Its' construction could be flat or oval, round,
            or 'D' section.

            3)
            Too many people are hung up on the idea of "awards". The recognition of
            one's peers carries the import and weight needed by the archers this
            company would appeal to. Recognition by token for skill at the line
            would be one thing but for anything else, well that's simply conforming
            to the mission statement. By the way, SCA rules prohibit the giving of
            "Awards" by any group below that of Barony in status and this, in the SCA
            hierarchy, would be merely a household or a guild at best.
            Carolus von Eulenhorst

            On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:05:17 -0700 Robert L Brunnemer
            <hugewheels@...> writes:
            >From: Robert L Brunnemer <hugewheels@...>
            >
            >snip<
            1)
            The only thing that I can think
            >of here is that I don't like the idea of having fiberglass be visible
            >at all. I would say that for the rules it would say something like
            >having no fiberglass be visible at all,
            >snip<
            2)
            >close to being right, by the style and all, but I thought that
            >longbows, by
            >definition had to be a self bow.
            > snip<
            3)
            Maybe there could be special awards, or
            >"titles" given to the people that have all period stuff, or have all
            >documentable stuff, or that made all of there stuff? I really like
            >that idea. There could even be a loose kind of system for people that
            >score really high in the group, or something like that, to be
            >determined later.
            >snip<

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          • Karl Sandhoff
            I wish to endorse this view on SCA wide groups. If you wish the group to be SCA wide, then you must make it as inclusive of the SCA s goals and policies as
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 6, 1999
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              I wish to endorse this view on SCA wide groups. If you wish the group to
              be SCA wide, then you must make it as inclusive of the SCA's goals and
              policies as the Society is itself. This does not mean that the group
              must accept the range of "bunny fur barbarians", fringe cultures, and
              fantasy elements as the group itself is tolerant of, but you must accept
              the range of time periods, cultures, styles, and materials. This makes
              it quite difficult. If, on the other hand, you work just with local
              people you can directly influence (and in this case local could include
              the electronic neighborhood), establish the group, and let its' mission
              spread, you will achieve what I hear you saying you want.
              Carolus von Eulenhorst

              On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 16:45:51 -0700 Alberic <alberic@...>
              writes:
              >From: Alberic <alberic@...>
              >
              >Robert:
              >
              >I generally find it easier to poke specific holes in proposals by
              >listing individual problem cases, which I will do here shortly. First
              >I'm going to attempt to be as generally constructive as possible.
              >(For
              >me anyway.)
              >
              >The idea of a period archery company has merit, and is certainly a
              >laudable goal, but it's loaded with traps for the unwary. How will
              >you
              >admit/select people?
              >All of the proposed methods have serious problems. I would tend to
              >recommend some sort of self-selection process, where an interested
              >person would first decide that they want to be part of "the group" and
              >then work on whatever they needed to do to qualify. Once those
              >requirements were met, they'd be in.
              >
              >It's been my experience with similar things that it is best to start
              >small and work up. Rather than trying to jump-start an SCA wide
              >"period
              >archery company", you'd have a greater chance of success by starting
              >one
              >in your local kingdom and working up from there, either by branching
              >out, or by co-ordinating with archers in other kingdoms to start their
              >own kingdom level groups that may eventually tie in together. For a
              >group like this to get started, there needs to be at least one person
              >with sufficient charisma pushing it, and that only works when the
              >group
              >is small enough for the "leader's" charisma to act. Once it gets
              >bigger
              >than that, you need a multitude of "little leaders" who can move their
              >own groups, but are themselves moved by the "maximum leader".
              >As I've been writing this, it occurs to me one good example of what
              >I'm
              >talking about both in terms of growth and organization is the early
              >church. (No damnit! No religious arguments! I'm just using the
              >structure of the church as an example! No! Down!) Anyway, to start,
              >you have one person with a vision.
              >He finds a group of like-minded folks, and eventually the all come to
              >believe in his vision. They then go out and spread, each of the
              >original core group finding another group of other like-minded folks
              >to
              >convert...and so it goes, much like a virus, it spreads. That was the
              >growth phase. The maintenance phase shows the power structure as it
              >evolved. Eventually, you wind up with the (early) medieval church. (In
              >my cartoonish rendering.) Starting at the bottom, you have the local
              >"parish" groups, which in the early days tended to be about 30-50
              >people. Just enough for one charismatic individual to handle. Above
              >there you had several intermediate groupings (who's names I've
              >forgotten.) but essentially, you then took 30-50 of the parish
              >leaders,
              >and concentrated them into a group that could be influenced by a
              >higher
              >level charismatic...etc. Repeat that a few times, and you've got an
              >archbishop, who reports to a cardinal who reports to a pope.
              >
              >The essential concept here is that there is a limit to the number of
              >people that one person, no matter how charismatic, can
              >influence/inspire/control. The trick that the early church figured
              >out
              >was to tie the whole mess together into groups that *could* be
              >controlled by a succession of charismatic individuals.
              >If you want to set up a society wide group, you could do worse than to
              >take a page from a playbook that ruled the european world for nearly
              >1300 years.
              >(I'm not suggesting crusades, inquisition or anything like that, but
              >take a good look at how the early church spread and organized itself.)
              >
              >Now, on to specific problem cases:
              >
              >Pistol crossbows: I'd have a hard time putting my hands on the exact
              >citations, but my memory tells me of someone claiming to have
              >documented
              >pistol crossbows to medieval China, as well as one recovered as part
              >of
              >a ?Roman? period Egyptian tomb. (I remember the crossbow they built
              >in
              >replication of it, but I don't remember where they said they found the
              >citation.)
              >Black skeletonized Barnetts? Obviously not. Pistol crossbows as a
              >blanket ban?
              >Perhaps more thought should be given there.
              >
              >The 10 foot rule is a good one, and you shouldn't set it up so that
              >it's
              >impossible to introduce things later. (Meaning that just because we
              >think something's not "period" now, in 1999, doesn't mean that we
              >won't
              >wake up next month and discover we were wrong. Don't write the rules
              >to
              >codify our current state of enlightenment.) Imagine how different the
              >SCA would be if the "rules" of period reflected just what the people
              >at
              >that first costume party believed to be "historical". When I first
              >got
              >into the SCA, you could document your name from Tolkien Elvish. Need
              >I
              >say more?
              >
              >
              >
              >FWIW,
              >Alberic
              >
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            • Robert L Brunnemer
              Hallo!!! Carolus von Eulenhorst said:
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 6, 1999
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                Hallo!!!

                Carolus von Eulenhorst said:
                <<<3) Too many people are hung up on the idea of "awards". The
                recognition of one's peers carries the import and weight needed by the
                archers this company would appeal to. Recognition by token for skill at
                the line would be one thing but for anything else, well that's simply
                conforming to the mission statement. By the way, SCA rules prohibit the
                giving of "Awards" by any group below that of Barony in status and this,
                in the SCA hierarchy, would be merely a household or a guild at best.>>>

                I partially understand this here. Really what I was thinking when I used
                the word "awards" was more of a recognition that would be in the form of
                some sort of thing. The problem here is that I can't think of a word to
                use here. Maybe official recognition, but official gets sticky
                sometimes. I know that certain times someone is called the "head" of a
                household or something that is an unofficial title, but they can use it
                anyway. So you would think that there could be the same sort of deal
                going on for this. We could make up a "title" for someone that uses all
                period or something. So they could get some sort of recognition for
                their doings. I hope that cleared up my "miswording."

                Have a nice day!!!
                Robert
                Hugewheels@...
                Tha mi a'fluich mi kilt!!!

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              • John Edgerton
                ... Misc deleted ... Misc deleted Something to look into is, are there any existing kingdom level groups that are allready doing this? How have they worked out
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 6, 1999
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                  >
                  > On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 16:45:51 -0700 Alberic <alberic@...>
                  > writes:

                  Misc deleted

                  > >From: Alberic <alberic@...>
                  > >It's been my experience with similar things that it is best to start
                  > >small and work up. Rather than trying to jump-start an SCA wide
                  > >"period
                  > >archery company", you'd have a greater chance of success by starting
                  > >one
                  > >in your local kingdom and working up from there, either by branching
                  > >out, or by co-ordinating with archers in other kingdoms to start their
                  > >own kingdom level groups that may eventually tie in together.

                  Misc deleted

                  Something to look into is, are there any existing kingdom level groups
                  that are allready doing this? How have they worked out the problems?

                  If such exist, can we make us of what they have developed or encourage
                  them to spread their allready working idea?

                  Jon
                • James C Wolf
                  Having lurked here for a while, and being intrigued with this period company, I wish to throw in my silver penny s worth. My questions are these-I shoot one of
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 8, 1999
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                    Having lurked here for a while, and being intrigued with this period
                    company, I wish to throw in my silver penny's worth. My questions are
                    these-I shoot one of Kasai's Hunnish horse bows. It looks great, with the
                    leather wrapping , snakeskin front, and wooden recurved ends and grip,
                    but the INSIDE is fiberglass! Allowable? Also, I use (horrors!) a back
                    quiver. I've got some time involved with the making and decoration, and
                    enjoy it. If necessary, I suppose I could try to make a side quiver, but
                    with Tandy gone there isn't any easy source of leather in this burg. Any
                    reply's and/or comments are welcome and deeply appreciated. FELIX
                  • Robert L Brunnemer
                    Hallo!!! I have been thinking quite a bit about this lately. To the point where one night I didn t do my homework. :-) And now that I think about it, I
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 8, 1999
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                      Hallo!!!

                      I have been thinking quite a bit about this lately. To the point where
                      one night I didn't do my homework. :-) And now that I think about it, I
                      believe that the proper thing to say about fiberglass by way of "the
                      company" would be to allow if it does not clearly stick out to be
                      fiberglass at about 10 ft. (I would personally prefer closer, but other
                      people like the ten foot rule, and I figure I should try and keep this
                      pretty lenient to not only allow the super elite group.) So from the
                      sounds of it I believe that I would love to have you join the group! I
                      am not really worried about documenting things so the back quiver (which
                      I believe can be documented but PLEASE lets not get into that again. I
                      don't think there is anywhere else for this list to go. :-)) so that
                      would be perfectly allowable as long as the quiver wouldn't have an
                      obvious plastic bottom on it. (Obvious as being a different color, like
                      light brown for the quiver, and the bottom being a black plastic. If it
                      is like that I am sure you could hide that with some scrap leather, or
                      even some fancy spray paint.) If I can get around to it I think that I
                      may start making the "guidelines" for the group, and try to get some
                      feedback. I think that I may put an expected part on that for Friday. I
                      will see if I can find the time to make the first draft by then to get
                      feed back. Thanks, and...

                      Have a nice day!!!
                      Robert
                      Hugewheels@...
                      Tha mi a'fluich mi kilt!!!

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