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Guild/Fellowship

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  • Evian Blackthorn
    Siegfried wrote on the archery list, As an example, I give you the breakout of archery awards for a few kingdoms: Middle Kingdom 37 Greenwood (GoA) 182
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 31, 2001
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      Siegfried wrote on the archery list, "As an example, I give you the breakout
      of archery awards for a few kingdoms:

      Middle Kingdom
      37 Greenwood (GoA)
      182 Dragon's Barb (AoA)

      Calontir
      23 Boga-Hirth (GoA)
      103 Boga-Fyrd (AoA)

      Atlantia
      16 Yew Bow (Non-Arm)

      Now I don't happen to be IN any of those myself, but I would rather only
      see the 37, 23, and 16 make into the fellowship than the entire ~300 ...
      *end of snip*

      I see a problem. I get a Yew Bow from Atlantia (not likely, as I don't
      live there). I become a member of the Fellowship. Then Atlantia makes an AOA
      level award called "The Order of the Golden Bow" (just as an example). Am I
      still a member of the fellowship? If I am, is the next Yew Bow made also
      eligible? If I am no longer a member of the fellowship, who is going to tell
      me to turn in my award (badge, etc)? See more on this in the new email list
      set up especially for this topic at SCA-SWAG@yahoogroups.com. IMHO, it is
      time that this subject was dropped from the archery list and missile combat
      list, and be taken to the SWAG list.
      Evian Blackthorn
      of THE WEB
    • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
      ... Ok Evian, I think you are overlooking something here. Which is that this is an issue that will need to be dealt with at the Kingdom level ANYWAY. The
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 31, 2001
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        At 12:50 PM 1/31/2001 -0600, you wrote:
        >Siegfried wrote on the archery list, "As an example, I give you the breakout
        >of archery awards for a few kingdoms:
        >
        >Middle Kingdom
        >37 Greenwood (GoA)
        >182 Dragon's Barb (AoA)
        >
        >Calontir
        >23 Boga-Hirth (GoA)
        >103 Boga-Fyrd (AoA)
        >
        >Atlantia
        >16 Yew Bow (Non-Arm)
        >
        >Now I don't happen to be IN any of those myself, but I would rather only
        >see the 37, 23, and 16 make into the fellowship than the entire ~300 ...
        >*end of snip*
        >
        > I see a problem. I get a Yew Bow from Atlantia (not likely, as I don't
        >live there). I become a member of the Fellowship. Then Atlantia makes an AOA
        >level award called "The Order of the Golden Bow" (just as an example). Am I
        >still a member of the fellowship? If I am, is the next Yew Bow made also
        >eligible? If I am no longer a member of the fellowship, who is going to tell
        >me to turn in my award (badge, etc)? See more on this in the new email list
        >set up especially for this topic at SCA-SWAG@yahoogroups.com.

        Ok Evian, I think you are overlooking something here. Which is that this
        is an issue that will need to be dealt with at the Kingdom level
        ANYWAY. The Kingdom is going to need to decide how to handle
        it. Currently, the Yew Bow isn't handed out willy-nilly, but is a very
        'honored' thing to received, as IF it carried a GoA (or AoA) with it ... it
        just doesn't have to.

        Chances are that if the Royalty wanted another level of award, one of the
        two would probably happen:
        A) The Yew Bow would be elevated to AoA status & a new award would be
        placed lower..
        B) The new award would be put into place, and any/all active members of the
        Yew Bow would be automatically granted membership.

        In either of these cases, the answer is still simple. When the fellowship
        goes into being, anyone with a Yew Bow gets a fellowship offer. They now
        have that for all time. If a new order is started ABOVE the yew bow, then
        for NEW people, only those accepted in the higher order would be offered
        the fellowship, as it would assume that the entry requirements for the
        lower award had lessoned. But noone would ever ask someone for a badge
        back ... that would be poor taste.

        > IMHO, it is
        >time that this subject was dropped from the archery list and missile combat
        >list, and be taken to the SWAG list.
        >Evian Blackthorn
        >of THE WEB

        BTW, I mentioned it on SWAG, and will mention it here as well, but the
        created purpose of SWAG via what Macsen had said was solely to discuss the
        creation of the GUILD. This is an independant discussion from how best to
        implement a Fellowship ... which are not mutually exclusive ...

        The fellowship discussion has remained here, the guild has moved to
        swag. Macsen, Sir Jon, if I have interpreted this wrong, please correct me ...

        Siegfried
      • Eadric Anstapa
        ... The Guild and the Fellowship are to me distinctly different proposals with different goals and approaches and not tied to one another. I would prefer that
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 31, 2001
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          Evian Blackthorn <theweb@...> said:
          > See more on this in the new email list
          > set up especially for this topic at SCA-SWAG@yahoogroups.com. IMHO, it is
          > time that this subject was dropped from the archery list and missile combat
          > list, and be taken to the SWAG list.
          > Evian Blackthorn
          > of THE WEB


          The Guild and the Fellowship are to me distinctly different proposals with
          different goals and approaches and not tied to one another. I would prefer
          that they be discussed separately.

          My 2cents.

          Eadric
        • wyvern@megahits.com
          ... Sounds about right to me. Guild discussion is still welcome here but I encourage it to move to the dedicated list. The current fellowship discussion
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 31, 2001
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            > The fellowship discussion has remained here, the guild has moved to
            > swag. Macsen, Sir Jon, if I have interpreted this wrong, please
            > correct me ...

            Sounds about right to me. Guild discussion is still welcome here
            but I encourage it to move to the dedicated list. The current
            fellowship discussion seems to keep drifting towards guild ideas
            anyway so it'll be interesting to see what concensus emerges as th
            discussion matures. (Hopefully the guild proposal will contain a
            strong element of "fellowship" when it's done. =)

            Macsen

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          • John Edgerton
            Siegfried Sebastian Faust wrote:that the entry requirements for the misc deleted ... I would feel that once given it would be permanent. ... That is also my
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 31, 2001
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              Siegfried Sebastian Faust wrote:that the entry requirements for the

              misc deleted

              > But noone would ever ask someone for a badge
              > back ... that would be poor taste.
              >

              I would feel that once given it would be permanent.

              >
              > > IMHO, it is
              > >time that this subject was dropped from the archery list and missile
              > combat
              > >list, and be taken to the SWAG list.
              > >Evian Blackthorn
              > >of THE WEB
              >
              > BTW, I mentioned it on SWAG, and will mention it here as well, but the
              >
              > created purpose of SWAG via what Macsen had said was solely to discuss
              > the
              > creation of the GUILD. This is an independant discussion from how
              > best to
              > implement a Fellowship ... which are not mutually exclusive ...
              >
              > The fellowship discussion has remained here, the guild has moved to
              > swag. Macsen, Sir Jon, if I have interpreted this wrong, please
              > correct me ...
              >

              That is also my understanding.

              Jon

              >
              > Siegfried
              >
            • wyvern@megahits.com
              ... What incentive would you offer to the kingdoms to do so? Keep in mind that each kingdom has its own history, traditions, and attitudes about its internal
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
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                > standardization for all kingdoms or nothing. Putting first things
                > first all the kingdoms need to have their awards brought up to parity
                > either within each of the individual kingdoms or by the SCA.

                What incentive would you offer to the kingdoms to do so? Keep in
                mind that each kingdom has its own history, traditions, and
                attitudes about its internal award system. Unless there is a very
                good reason to change, they will naturally resist. (And I would
                have to agree with them. Personally, I *like* the fact that each
                kingdom has its own particular flavor and personality. Uniformity
                isn't always a good thing.)

                Macsen

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              • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                ... I agree to a sense ... the only issue that could ever happen is IF the whole knowne world ever had a Grand Marche , where everyone lined up
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
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                  >Personally, I *like* the fact that each
                  >kingdom has its own particular flavor and personality. Uniformity
                  >isn't always a good thing.)

                  I agree to a sense ... the only 'issue' that could ever happen is IF the
                  whole knowne world ever had a 'Grand Marche', where everyone lined up
                  order-of-precedence-like ...

                  (Would be interesting to do at Pennsic, circle it around the battlefield
                  *grin*)

                  And 'odditities' would start appearing, such as White scarfs in one kingdom
                  being GoA ranked, in another AoA ranked, and in another non-arm ...

                  In general, for example, Atlantia would have a LARGE hole ... right around
                  the GoA area ... while flooding the AoA range :)

                  But that's ok, because WITHIN Atlantia, everyone knows how everything works ...

                  Siegfried


                  _________________________________________________________________________
                  Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust Barony of Highland Foorde
                  Baronial Web Minister http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/
                • hamberg@fiber.net
                  ... What will happen when someday the SCA comes up with a peerage for archers and rapier fighters? Many of the traditions will simply change to embrace the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
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                    >> standardization for all kingdoms or nothing. Putting first things
                    >> first all the kingdoms need to have their awards brought up to
                    >> parity either within each of the individual kingdoms or by the SCA.
                    >
                    > What incentive would you offer to the kingdoms to do so? Keep in
                    > mind that each kingdom has its own history, traditions, and
                    > attitudes about its internal award system. Unless there is a very
                    > good reason to change, they will naturally resist. (And I would
                    > have to agree with them. Personally, I *like* the fact that each
                    > kingdom has its own particular flavor and personality. Uniformity
                    > isn't always a good thing.)
                    >
                    > Macsen

                    What will happen when someday the SCA comes up with a peerage for
                    archers and rapier fighters? Many of the traditions will simply
                    change to embrace the new honor. There will be a few people that
                    resist the change but those will be few. I bet if the SCA did
                    something to reward archers, an overwhelming majority will applaude
                    the effort.

                    Traditions aren't always a good thing and sometimes they need to
                    change. Traditions also evolve and if you look at the tradition as
                    it existed 10 years ago and what it is today I'm sure you would see
                    major changes some good and some not so good.

                    Michael
                  • wyvern@megahits.com
                    ... It s called the Laurel. =) Okay, assuming one day a new peerage is created specific to archery. (I hope it doesn t but that s another thread
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
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                      > What will happen when someday the SCA comes up with a peerage for
                      > archers and rapier fighters? Many of the traditions will simply

                      It's called the "Laurel." =)

                      Okay, assuming one day a new peerage is created specific to
                      archery. (I hope it doesn't but that's another thread altogether.)

                      What does that have to do with having uniform awards for archers
                      *below* the peer level? After all, even *with* a peerage for rattan
                      tourney, the kingdoms don't have uniformity in their rattan awards
                      below peer level, so why is there a need for archery to have uniform
                      awards across kingdoms?

                      > Traditions aren't always a good thing and sometimes they need to
                      > change. Traditions also evolve and if you look at the tradition as it
                      > existed 10 years ago and what it is today I'm sure you would see major
                      > changes some good and some not so good.

                      But they aren't inherently bad either. That's why I ask what
                      incentive there is for the kingdoms to "standardize," as you put it?

                      Macsen


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                    • hamberg@fiber.net
                      ... (I M ASSUMING YOU SAID LAUREL =) TONGUE IN CHEEK) No!!! There is no peerage for these fighting techniques. They are calling the these martial techniques
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
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                        >> What will happen when someday the SCA comes up with a peerage for
                        >> archers and rapier fighters?
                        >
                        > It's called the "Laurel." =)

                        (I'M ASSUMING YOU SAID LAUREL =) TONGUE IN CHEEK)
                        No!!! There is no peerage for these fighting techniques. They are
                        calling the these martial techniques an art and giving them a
                        Laurel. Not the same thing. Archers were just as much of a part of
                        the battle as were the knights and the only difference is the social
                        class.

                        > What does that have to do with having uniform awards for archers
                        > *below* the peer level? After all, even *with* a peerage for
                        > rattan tourney, the kingdoms don't have uniformity in their rattan
                        > awards below peer level, so why is there a need for archery to have
                        > uniform awards across kingdoms?

                        I don't think that a peer level award for archery (or rapier) is
                        coming in the near future. A kingdom might never reconize archery.
                        I have also noticed that archery is probably the best organized of
                        the fighting arts within the SCA. SCA Archers for the most part are
                        far more organized, friendlier, less political than any group I've
                        seen in the SCA (coming from me that's a major compliment).

                        At this point in the game it would be WONDERFUL to have the awards
                        somewhat similar. A Grant level award would mean something similar
                        to a Grant level award somewhere else. So would an AoA level
                        award. Make the non-AoA awards either minor kingdom or baronial
                        awards. If I travel to another kingdom for an event and have the
                        oppertunity to spend time with another archer I know what he did to
                        earn his award. In the karate community there are numerous styles
                        and style varients but everybody reconizes the term "Black
                        Belt", "Brown Belt", "White Belt". To have a inherit mutal
                        understanding of an award, regardless of name or how it was presented
                        would sure be great.

                        >> Traditions aren't always a good thing and sometimes they need to
                        >> change. Traditions also evolve and if you look at the tradition
                        >> as it existed 10 years ago and what it is today I'm sure you would
                        >> see major changes some good and some not so good.
                        >
                        > But they aren't inherently bad either. That's why I ask what
                        > incentive there is for the kingdoms to "standardize," as you put it?

                        but... THEY CAN BE. How many traditions do you know about are only
                        traditions because that's the only way it's ever been done. The
                        printing press got condemned and so did giving the mass in a language
                        other than Latin. I'm sure glad these traditions were changed.

                        The tradition of having a major class distinction between archers,
                        rapier fighters and the heavies is one tradition I would like to see
                        go away. I would rather see one big community than several small
                        ones.

                        Michael
                      • Kevin Dail
                        ... Standardization goes against the grain of the game in my eyes. We are supposed to be from *different* kingdoms. This implies cultural differences. If we
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
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                          > > But they aren't inherently bad either. That's why I ask what
                          > > incentive there is for the kingdoms to "standardize," as you put it?
                          >
                          >but... THEY CAN BE. How many traditions do you know about are only
                          >traditions because that's the only way it's ever been done. The
                          >printing press got condemned and so did giving the mass in a language
                          >other than Latin. I'm sure glad these traditions were changed.
                          >
                          >The tradition of having a major class distinction between archers,
                          >rapier fighters and the heavies is one tradition I would like to see
                          >go away. I would rather see one big community than several small
                          >ones.
                          >
                          >Michael

                          Standardization goes against the grain of the game in my eyes. We are
                          supposed to be from *different* kingdoms. This implies cultural
                          differences. If we standardize, we might as well just be one big
                          kingdom:) I need solid period evidence of this in the field of
                          archery before I accept it...


                          MacDaill
                        • Chris Nogy
                          Speaking from one who is a peer (Laurel) for archery and archery related arts and sciences (as the scroll says - the research, construction, and use of
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
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                            Speaking from one who is a peer (Laurel) for archery and archery related arts and sciences

                            (as the scroll says - 'the research, construction, and use of archery equipment')

                            and being from a Kingdom where we actually have a Laurel solely for skill at the 'performance of archery'

                            I can say that it is tough. Tough because the standards for the SCA archery game and the standards for the Laurel Society-wide are quite different. The Laurel promotes extremely period activities, deep knowledge of each period aspect of a particular art or science. The archery community snarls at this claiming snobbery if any type of contest or recognition requires more than the minimum.

                            Competitions ranking archers on the Society level are based on scores by proxy, not on observation of the archer. Scores are higher when shot with equipment that has had the benefit of evolution (an archer shooting modern equipment almost always scores better than the same archer shooting with period equipment). Modern equipment allows modern shooting techniques that are not directly applicable to period archery (holding for aim, for example - a technique that robs most self and natural composite bows of performance and causes inconsistent shooting). Modern shooting techniques with modern equipment do not meet the basic criteria for a Laurel (at least no other Laurel activity rewards such extensive reliance on modern techniques and equipment where safety is not concerned).

                            It has been said to me that the Chivalry is just a special type of Laurel granted for the 'performance art of tourney fighting' with allowances made for safety. I actually see the truth in this. But if this is true, then the reason that the Chivalry does not exist as an encompassed subset of the Laurel is that the criteria are too different from the basic criteria for all other Laurel activities. Archery is stuck in the same boat. Although a level of skill might be comparable, the Laurel really has no way of equating that level of skill to something inherant to the laurel order. A brewer, a costumer, a metalworker, a calligrapher, a musician, all these have common frames of reference. You can look at documentation and understand the validity of research even if it is not in your own chosen subject. You can look at seams, wood finishes, metal polishes, clarity of brew, and understand a little bit about the product through the attention paid to finish and fit. As a craftsman or artist, you have a basic global understand of art and craft that can help you to determine the validity of a cantidate for the order, as well as to be able to understand the points being promoted and discussed. There is no fit, no finish, no research that can be correlated to other Laurel pursuits in the shooting skills as practiced in the SCA.

                            I was an exception, my shooting is done with period gear in period style, I taught and researched into the ways of a period archer, I built the equipment (weapons, armor, clothing, accessories) and learned their use. I am not the hottest shot in the Kingdom, far from it. But I took archery as a performance art and did what all other Laurels have done with their particular activities - presented all the parts of it in a way that could be correlated by the Laurels to their own standards. In this I fell short of the perfect archery peerage - one based only on shooting skill. But I did succeed in getting as close to a perfect match with the Laurel as I can imagine.

                            That is why the Laurel track is so upsetting to so many archers - they do not want to have to go to the lengths I went to get there - they don't feel the need to do the extensive ancillary work that I did. They want recognition for a specific aspect of the art of archery - the ability to hit the target with the highest precision without carrying too much extra 'philosophical baggage'. So the answer for this will never be the Laurel, it must be somewhere else.

                            The Chivalry is the perfect example of a peerage order based more on SCA standards than on medieval recreation. Our Chivlary order ideals could not exist outside the SCA, though mastery recognition for many of our Laurels could. The Chivalry is based on recognizing people who play with our very un-period weapons and styles, with all the restrictions and limitations of our game that were not present in period. And the SCA could no more exist without the order of the Chivalry than the Chivalry could exist without the SCA. It is the most pervasive part of the SCA that is unique to the SCA - it is the largest universally recognized identifier of what the SCA is as a group. This is exactly what the archers want - an SCA peerage (not a spin-off of a medieval peerage), developed from and being an integral part of, the SCA game, not relying so heavily on anything outside the world of the SCA as a game. But the Chivalry are not currently of a mind to expand their scope to grant this recognition, and I do not see this happening anytime soon.

                            So we once again approach a new peerage out of necessity. A 'white scarf' -like quasi peerage would never grant what is desired, and only hinder the development of an actual peerage, most possibly terminally. An actual extra peerage has been declared "out of the question" by several Society Stewards and BoD decisions. So if the treaty idea doesn't work, the available peerages don't work, and there is no hope of a new peerage, what then? Despair, hopelessness, gloom. Not really.

                            The Society is not impervious to change. But in many aspects of its governance, it is quite slow to be convinced. So it must start on a local level - with local groups recognizing and rewarding excellence in archery. Not just skill, but excellence. People must begin to set some type of general criteria that apply to SCA archery, so that the rest of the world can recognize what is a good SCA archer, and these criteria must be taught so people (most especially outside the archery fellowship) understand them. This will gain the attention of Kingdoms, and with motivated people and large enough numbers, the Kingdoms will begin to recognize archers (as Calontir has already done in a very outstanding way). This recognition will come in ways very unique to each Kingdom, but still based on good criteria and understanding of great archery. When the Kingdom support and recognition is high enough (I dare say almost universal will be required), and the numbers are great enough, the Society out of necessity will respond. They will have no choice. A large number of people with universally recognized accomplishments is a force to be reconed with. Keep in mind, though, that it will take more than a couple of presenters or a handful of expert archers. It will take a concerted effort on the part of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of individuals. Not a petition, but active work. No previous decision can stand in the way of all that.

                            And a very unique thing will happen when it is all over. Your new order will be accepted, because all the hoops you had to jump through will have taught you much about your society as well, and by the time you are about to succeed, you will not permit your ideas to jeopardize the SCA. People will see that and respond to you with open arms and open minds. You will have by design and necessity built a positive part of the SCA.

                            Shortcuts will not provide these benefits. Shortcuts will be looked at with distrust at best. And the thing that grows from shortcuts will always be a crippled stepchild of the parent group, never realizing anywhere near the full potential that it could. And that would be a shame to have happen to SCA archery - a thing I have devoted more than a decade of my life to, sacrificed for, wept over, screamed about, felt joyous rapture for, nearly quit over. Just like so many of you.

                            In the end, you have to work to get anything. The amount of work you have to do is not always decided by you - often your obstacles have been determined, built, and reinforced by others well beyond what you find reasonable. That is not always fair, but it is the way it is. And you won't change it merely by trying to point out how unfair it is - you must accomplish in spite of the inequities. But if you really want something, you just get down to work and do it. Because you can't get to the end of the quest without starting on it and working through it.

                            Kaz
                          • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                            Dear Kaz, WOW! I like your thinking, and I agree with what you ve said and think that this will be a noble venture. Please contact me privately if you would
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
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                              Dear Kaz,
                              WOW! I like your thinking, and I agree with what you've said and
                              think that this will be a noble venture. Please contact me privately if
                              you would because I would like to discuss some efforts that could be
                              made in this way.
                              I still don't see how the "Grand Fellowship" could work against this. We
                              just want to "tag" people who have archery awards and orders,
                              that's it.
                              -Geoffrei


                              http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                            • Karl Sandhoff
                              This post struck a very well known chord with me. I come from a geographically diverse Barony with a well known reputation for contentiousness. My geographic
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 2, 2001
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                                This post struck a very well known chord with me. I come from a
                                geographically diverse Barony with a well known reputation for
                                contentiousness. My geographic area formed an incipient Canton in order
                                to give our local people a way to play on an administrative level.
                                Needless to say, our motives were suspect by those in power. After a
                                particularly unsettled period and a charismatic leader, I was asked to
                                become seneschal. I agreed and began sheparding our group toward full
                                recognition. It took me 2 years of constant work to finally convince the
                                powers that be that we could do the job repeatedly and were not planning
                                a break away group, that our intent was to work within the existing
                                structure. I wanted very much to be the seneschal to lead us to full
                                recognition but such was not to be, that fell to my successor. We are
                                now a full Canton in our Barony and helping to lead our Barony to greater
                                acheivements. This may be a long winded introduction to a basic point
                                but I think it has relevance.

                                Today, the archery community is in a position of supporting the SCA
                                heavily. However, because of many things which have been said over the
                                years, a distrust of the motives of the archers exists in many minds.
                                Just as I had to watch a frustrated populus deal with what seemed to many
                                a conspiracy to deny us our rightful recognition, we will, as a
                                collective, have to deal with similar frustrations. We must avoid, at
                                all costs, ANY appearance of creating a "shadow peerage" or an ettempt at
                                an end run around the existing power structure. We must work with and
                                within this structure to attain our ends. We must demonstrate a
                                willingness to work within the structure that currently exists. The
                                first step is to accept the BOD's 4th peerage ruling. Whether there is
                                eventually a 4th peerage to recognize aspects of the SCA experience not
                                currently recognized or whether those aspects are recognized within the
                                existing structure is yet to be seen.

                                One of the first things we can do is to cultivate relationships with
                                Laurels and Pelicans in our own kingdoms. Find out exactly how they
                                judge candidates. For instance, here in Caid, a Laurel candidate must
                                demonstrate mastery of one art and high competance in at least one other.
                                A Pelican cnadidate must show a broad base of service is several areas
                                (i.e. running archery events and programs only won't make it). The
                                Chivalry was built on, and maintains, a tradition of being based on use
                                of "tournament" weapons and conduct. Here, that means that the war only
                                fighter is excluded. Cultivate your contacts and show them where the
                                archery activities fit in their own scheme of things. Show them that
                                participation in archery is a multi-faceted and complex activity. Help
                                them play our game a little so that they understand the challenges
                                presented. With time and understanding they will decide among themselves
                                whether we should be included in their ranks or whether we need a
                                recognition path of our own.

                                Do not expect this to be easy or quick. Expect to get flak from both
                                sides as there will be resistance from without and distrust from within
                                the archery community. Expect this to take five to ten years to begin to
                                make an inroad and start out on this road with that knowledge. If it
                                takes less, rejoice. The SCA power structure is conservative and
                                self-perpetuating -- accept it and work with it, don't fight it. It
                                changes because it wants to. Plant the seed, nurture it, watch it grow.
                                Let the powers that be take the credit for making the change. They will
                                be quicker to act if they think it is their own idea. I have seen how
                                many things have been accomplished by applying a constant but subtle
                                pressure and letting someone else take the credit.

                                But above all, we must decide what our goal is and unfailingly work
                                toward it even when the path seems to go in the opposite direction. In
                                the course of advancing my Canton I had to swallow a great many things I
                                disliked but I knew that doing so would get me closer to my utimate goal
                                and the pleasure in that success more than outweighed what I had to go
                                through. As many in the mundane world say "Think Globally and Work
                                Locally". This will get us what we want SCA wide.
                                In service to the dream,
                                Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                eulenhorst@...

                                On Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:33:34 -0600 "Chris Nogy" <cnogy@...>
                                writes:
                                >Speaking from one who is a peer (Laurel) for archery and archery
                                >related arts and sciences
                                >
                                >(as the scroll says - 'the research, construction, and use of archery
                                >equipment')

                                >snip<

                                >In the end, you have to work to get anything. The amount of work you
                                >have to do is not always decided by you - often your obstacles have
                                >been determined, built, and reinforced by others well beyond what you
                                >find reasonable. That is not always fair, but it is the way it is.
                                >And you won't change it merely by trying to point out how unfair it is
                                >- you must accomplish in spite of the inequities. But if you really
                                >want something, you just get down to work and do it. Because you
                                >can't get to the end of the quest without starting on it and working
                                >through it.
                                >
                                >Kaz
                                >snip

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                              • wyvern@megahits.com
                                ... No, I m deadly serious. ... I disagree. Read the definition of the Laurel in Corpora. Arcehry and Rapier fit into it with no trouble whatsoever. ... Call
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 2, 2001
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                                  > > It's called the "Laurel." =)
                                  >
                                  > (I'M ASSUMING YOU SAID LAUREL =) TONGUE IN CHEEK)

                                  No, I'm deadly serious.

                                  > No!!! There is no peerage for these fighting techniques. They are

                                  I disagree. Read the definition of the Laurel in Corpora. Arcehry
                                  and Rapier fit into it with no trouble whatsoever.

                                  > calling the these martial techniques an art and giving them a Laurel.

                                  Call them an art or not (they are, but that's not even necessary)
                                  they are undoubtedly "skills" and that's what the Laurel is
                                  supposed to recognize.

                                  > Not the same thing. Archers were just as much of a part of the battle
                                  > as were the knights and the only difference is the social class.

                                  That has nothing to do with it. Knighthood isn't awarded for
                                  "battle." It's awarded for rattan tourney fighting.

                                  > I don't think that a peer level award for archery (or rapier) is
                                  > coming in the near future. A kingdom might never reconize archery. I

                                  Not a specialized one, no. Hopefully they will continue to gain
                                  acceptance among the Laurelate but I don't see any new specialty
                                  peerages coming any time soon. (Personally, I'm one of those who
                                  finds that to be a Good Thing(tm).)

                                  > have also noticed that archery is probably the best organized of the
                                  > fighting arts within the SCA. SCA Archers for the most part are far
                                  > more organized, friendlier, less political than any group I've seen in
                                  > the SCA (coming from me that's a major compliment).

                                  I don't know about archers being any better "organized." Up until
                                  last year there was no such thing as a Society Archery Policy yet
                                  the fighters have had a standard set of Society rules for at *least*
                                  20 years that I know of...

                                  > At this point in the game it would be WONDERFUL to have the awards
                                  > somewhat similar. A Grant level award would mean something similar to
                                  > a Grant level award somewhere else. So would an AoA level award.

                                  You still haven't answered *why* it would be so wonderful? What's
                                  bad about variety? Why is bland better?

                                  > Make the non-AoA awards either minor kingdom or baronial awards. If I
                                  > travel to another kingdom for an event and have the oppertunity to
                                  > spend time with another archer I know what he did to earn his award.

                                  Wouldn't you get to know far more simply by "spend[ing] time with
                                  another archer" then you would by just knowing that someone had
                                  a "standard" award?

                                  > In the karate community there are numerous styles and style varients
                                  > but everybody reconizes the term "Black Belt", "Brown Belt", "White
                                  > Belt". To have a inherit mutal understanding of an award, regardless
                                  > of name or how it was presented would sure be great.

                                  Do they? I've been in three different systems and about the only
                                  thing that was consistent was the black belt. And even that varies
                                  enormously by school. Below that every other color was just
                                  something less than a black belt -- you wouldn't know how *much*
                                  less unless you knew the system OR spent time with whoever was
                                  wearing it.

                                  > other than Latin. I'm sure glad these traditions were changed.

                                  Great. But you still haven't offered any substantial benefit inherent
                                  in changing this particular set of traditions.

                                  > The tradition of having a major class distinction between archers,
                                  > rapier fighters and the heavies is one tradition I would like to see
                                  > go away. I would rather see one big community than several small
                                  > ones.

                                  Okay. So how does standardizing archery awards across
                                  kingdoms help meet that objective?

                                  Macsen

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                                • J. Patrick Hughes
                                  I want to thank both Ragnar and Kaz for their respective and thoughtful posts. They each raised a number of concerns that we need to take into consideration. I
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 2, 2001
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                                    I want to thank both Ragnar and Kaz for their respective and thoughtful
                                    posts. They each raised a number of concerns that we need to take into
                                    consideration. I particularly found Kaz's analysis of the peerage issue of
                                    interest. That was a perspective I will need to think on. I have often
                                    thought of the Laurel in terms of period chivalry with the area of prowess
                                    being one or another art rather than the chivalry as a Laurel with the
                                    form being heavy weapons. Kaz has probably been aware that I have had,
                                    for years, strong philosophical convictions that both the Laurel and the
                                    Pelican circles need to recommend to the Crown the elevation of archers
                                    when the work falls within their scope. Perhaps we need to better
                                    articulate what sort of archery artistry and service is appropriate for
                                    such recognition. This will make both members of the orders and the crowns
                                    more comfortable when considering such peerages.

                                    I think that the entire discussion on either the guild or fellowship (and
                                    the distinction is not always clear) needs to not only establish solid and
                                    agreed upon goals, but we need to be sure that the means towards those
                                    goals are the best to achieve them. I fear that some of the things
                                    proposed will have serious negative effects. While there are many ways in
                                    place already to achieve some of the goals discussed. We should never
                                    create bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy.

                                    Finally, I am concerned that seldom in our discussions has the question
                                    been asked: what did they do in period? I would be much more comfortable
                                    with a discussion at this point of the royally chartered company of
                                    archers under Henry VIII or the Schutzenguilds in the Holy Roman Empire.
                                    But this would possibility lead us back to local solutions to local
                                    situations. There were differences between realms (and over time) in
                                    period that far exceeds even the considerable differences between kingdoms
                                    in our Society.

                                    Charles O'Connor
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