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Re: [SCA-Archery] ascham

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  • Ken and Jenn
    Ian, just to add a few period sources in english (after translation). Saracen Archery which is a translation of a Malamute work on archery from 1365 and
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
      Ian, just to add a few period sources in english (after translation).
      "Saracen Archery" which is a translation of a Malamute work on archery
      from 1365 and "Peri Toxeas" which is a work on archery from ~7th-8th century
      covering Byzantine archery. This, according to the translator, is the
      earliest known work on archery.

      Note that "Toxophillus" is not only one of the first works on archery,
      but was the first book printed in English.

      Nicetas

      At 08:09 AM 12/2/00 -0500, you wrote:
      >> Ashams book "Toxophillus" offers some insight, but was
      >> written well after the great age of the longbow and is the writing of an
      >> academics tutor, not a great military archer. It is a wonderful book and
      >> a must have for any student of archery.but it is not the final word or
      >> by any means the complete story. We all seem to quote from it as if it
      >> is the word of God. It is just another source. -Geoffrei
      >
      >Just a note...
      >As far as I know, the Toxophillus is the only period source
      >in English, for those of us also playing the A&S game,
      >although there is one translated 'Arab Archery' book (the
      >original is from around 1500) which is worth finding. Which
      >is not to say there isn't other good Medieval imput, but
      >it's single pictures or accounts of battles, mostly.
      >If I recall correctly, Ascham suggests going to the fletcher
      >for good arrows, and doesn't get into arrow making in any
      >detail. So I guess it's mostly conjecture for us - sigh.
      >--
      >Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe, OP
      >Known as a forester of the Greenwood, Midrealm
      > http://web.raex.com/~agincort
      >
      >
      >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
      >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
      >
      >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
      >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Mike O'Toole
      ... From: Ken and Jenn To: Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] ascham ... I
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Ken and Jenn" <woolyfsh@...>
        To: <SCA-Archery@egroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 7:30 AM
        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] ascham


        > Ian, just to add a few period sources in english (after translation).
        > "Saracen Archery" which is a translation of a Malamute work on archery

        I am going to assume you meant Mameluke, the warrior caste from Egypt
        and dominant in the Middle East between the ninth and sixteenth
        centuries and not "malamute" a breed of Arctic sled dog. :-)

        Though I do find the mental picture of hordes of furry canines shooting
        bows appealing! :-)

        Michael O'Byrne
        Montengarde














        > from 1365 and "Peri Toxeas" which is a work on archery from ~7th-8th
        century
        > covering Byzantine archery. This, according to the translator, is the
        > earliest known work on archery.
        >
        > Note that "Toxophillus" is not only one of the first works on archery,
        > but was the first book printed in English.
        >
        > Nicetas
        >
        > At 08:09 AM 12/2/00 -0500, you wrote:
        > >> Ashams book "Toxophillus" offers some insight, but was
        > >> written well after the great age of the longbow and is the writing
        of an
        > >> academics tutor, not a great military archer. It is a wonderful
        book and
        > >> a must have for any student of archery.but it is not the final word
        or
        > >> by any means the complete story. We all seem to quote from it as if
        it
        > >> is the word of God. It is just another source. -Geoffrei
        > >
        > >Just a note...
        > >As far as I know, the Toxophillus is the only period source
        > >in English, for those of us also playing the A&S game,
        > >although there is one translated 'Arab Archery' book (the
        > >original is from around 1500) which is worth finding. Which
        > >is not to say there isn't other good Medieval imput, but
        > >it's single pictures or accounts of battles, mostly.
        > >If I recall correctly, Ascham suggests going to the fletcher
        > >for good arrows, and doesn't get into arrow making in any
        > >detail. So I guess it's mostly conjecture for us - sigh.
        > >--
        > >Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe, OP
        > >Known as a forester of the Greenwood, Midrealm
        > > http://web.raex.com/~agincort
        > >
        > >
        > >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
        > >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
        > >
        > >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
        > >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
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        >
        > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
        > http://www.MedievalMart.com/
        >
        > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
        > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
        >
        >
      • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
        Michael O Byrne wrote: I am going to assume you meant Mameluke, the warrior caste from Egypt and dominant in the Middle East between the ninth and sixteenth
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
          Michael O'Byrne wrote:
          I am going to assume you meant Mameluke, the warrior caste from Egypt
          and dominant in the Middle East between the ninth and sixteenth
          centuries and not "malamute" a breed of Arctic sled dog. :-)
          Though I do find the mental picture of hordes of furry canines shooting
          bows appealing! :-)
          Michael O'Byrne
          Montengarde

          Response:
          Horde? or TUCHUX?
          (no offense to my many friends in the Tuchux, but you do call each other
          "dogs")
          -Geoffrei


          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
        • Bob & Nancy Upson
          ... I m picturing it on black velvet -- as part of the set with dogs playing poker and dogs playing pool... ;) Macsen ... Get Medieval at Mad Macsen s
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
            > Though I do find the mental picture of hordes of furry canines
            > shooting bows appealing! :-)

            I'm picturing it on black velvet -- as part of the set with dogs playing
            poker and dogs playing pool... ;)

            Macsen

            ------------------------------------------------------------
            Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.MedievalMart.com/
            *** BUY *** SELL *** BID *** HAGGLE ***
            We all wish everyone a Safe & Happy Holiday Season!
            ------------------------------------------------------------
          • Ken and Jenn
            Woof woof --- damn spell checkers. Horse bows -- dog bows what s the difference? Nicetas
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
              Woof woof --- damn spell checkers.
              Horse bows -- dog bows what's the difference?

              Nicetas

              At 01:40 PM 12/2/00 -0500, you wrote:
              >> Though I do find the mental picture of hordes of furry canines
              >> shooting bows appealing! :-)
              >
              >I'm picturing it on black velvet -- as part of the set with dogs playing
              >poker and dogs playing pool... ;)
              >
              >Macsen
              >
              >------------------------------------------------------------
              >Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.MedievalMart.com/
              > *** BUY *** SELL *** BID *** HAGGLE ***
              > We all wish everyone a Safe & Happy Holiday Season!
              >------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
              >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
              >
              >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
              >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • James W. Pratt Jr.
              Greetind to Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe and the list. Not to change the thread to much... if Ashams book Toxophillus is a tertiary source how should an A&S
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
                Greetind to Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe and the list.

                Not to change the thread to much... if Ashams book "Toxophillus" is a
                tertiary source
                how should an A&S "Judge" judge a conjecture? This is a serious question.

                James Cunningham

                We all seem to quote from it as if it is the word of God. It is just another
                source. -Geoffrei

                So I guess it's mostly conjecture for us - sigh.
              • Bruce R. Gordon
                ... Greetings Ascham? A tertiary source? I can t see how. He wrote in period (1540 s) on a period topic. That makes him a primary source as far as I am
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
                  "James W. Pratt Jr." wrote:

                  > Greetind to Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe and the list.
                  >
                  > Not to change the thread to much... if Ashams book "Toxophillus" is a
                  > tertiary source
                  > how should an A&S "Judge" judge a conjecture? This is a serious question.
                  >
                  > James Cunningham

                  Greetings
                  Ascham? A tertiary source? I can't see how. He wrote in period (1540's) on a
                  period topic. That makes him a primary source as far as I am concerned. Not only
                  that, but he wrote in an understandable language, which is pure bonus. He is
                  certainly not the end-all and be-all on the subject, and he has really annoying
                  habits of not commenting on vital topics, but he is still invaluable for archery
                  research.
                  Most research is conjecture, really. What makes it useful is that it is
                  informed conjecture; conjecture with a solid grounding in fact. That grounding
                  is itself based on source material, both primary and secondary. And tertiary
                  too, for a broad and general overview. Ascham remains one of the very best in
                  sources.

                  Regards;
                  Forester Nigel FitzMaurice (Mid)
                  --

                  Ex Tenebra, Lux

                  http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
                • James W. Pratt Jr.
                  Thanks! James ... (1540 s) on a
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
                    Thanks!

                    James
                    > Ascham? A tertiary source? I can't see how. He wrote in period
                    (1540's) on a
                    > period topic. That makes him a primary source as far as I am concerned.
                  • Scott Jaqua
                    ... From: James W. Pratt Jr. Not to change the thread to much... if Ashams book Toxophillus is a tertiary source how should an A&S Judge judge a
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 4, 2000
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: James W. Pratt Jr.

                      Not to change the thread to much... if Ashams book "Toxophillus" is a
                      tertiary source
                      how should an A&S "Judge" judge a conjecture? (snip)


                      Njall replies;

                      I would have to consider Toxophillus to be a secondary source at worst. And
                      if I were writing a research paper that involved conjecture about the period
                      mind set, I would have to consider it a primary source. It is far better
                      then tertiary for the following reasons

                      It's written in period by an actual observer. Ascham is an actual observer,
                      because while he is an academic, he is also recorded to be an archer
                      himself. While not a military archer, he held archery as good exercise for
                      the body and spirit. He took this advice to heart and both he and his
                      students (read a young Elizabeth the1st) learned to shoot. I believe he
                      proves his first hand knowledge of the subject in how he records what takes
                      place during practice at the butts.

                      Further study of his work should revel that the book shows the two different
                      sides of Ascham life. Because it is written as a dialog between a lover of
                      archery and a lover of learning.
                      I would be hard pressed to classify Ascham as ONLY a academic.

                      Njall (who prides himself on having a literate persona)
                    • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                      Njall replies; (heavily edited) I would have to consider Toxophillus to be a secondary source at worst. ... It is far better then tertiary for the following
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 4, 2000
                        Njall replies;
                        (heavily edited)
                        "I would have to consider Toxophillus to be a secondary source at worst.
                        ... It is far better then tertiary for the following reasons
                        It's written in period by an actual observer. Ascham is an actual
                        observer,"

                        < This is not entirely true. Although Ascham is period to the SCA his
                        life began at the end of the great age of the British longbow.The
                        Hundred Years War was over a century before and The War of the Roses
                        which is responsible for killing off the great war archers of Britain
                        was almost half a century earlier.>

                        Njall continues:
                        ".....Further study of his work should revel that the book shows the two
                        different sides of Ascham life. Because it is written as a dialog
                        between a lover of archery and a lover of learning.
                        I would be hard pressed to classify Ascham as ONLY a academic."

                        < And what a wonderful man he must have been and what a wonderful
                        gift to archery he gave us. He wrote about this subject that is so dear
                        to all of us from a point of view that is CLOSER to the great period of
                        the longbow than we are. William Shakespeare was much closer than we
                        also. He was genius, but his account of Agincourt must be treated with
                        a very critical view of the facts as we
                        know them. As students and lovers of history, we must put it all in the
                        mix, Ascham, Shakespeare, the records from the Tower of London, the
                        manuscript illustrations,the poets, the period accounts of battle, the
                        recent finds, and see if we can make an educated GUESS. Because there
                        are contradictions up the WAZOO.
                        I love Ascham's book as I've stated before and use it to refer to
                        regularly. But, it is not THE GOSPEL of medieval archery, though it's
                        one of the better sources we have. We are all speculating here, with a
                        handful of facts that are universally accepted, the rest of the answers
                        to our questions are still out there somewhere. Maybe some day more
                        light will be shed on the subject of medieval archery. Look at how the
                        facts changed within the last forty years due to the efforts of the Mary
                        Rose Trust.
                        -Geoffrei
                      • Bruce R. Gordon
                        ... Greetings Ok, maybe a little digression on research catagories is in order here... Sources come in three flavours; primary, secondary, tertiary. A primary
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 4, 2000
                          Scott Jaqua wrote:

                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: James W. Pratt Jr.
                          >
                          > Not to change the thread to much... if Ashams book "Toxophillus" is a
                          > tertiary source
                          > how should an A&S "Judge" judge a conjecture? (snip)

                          Greetings
                          Ok, maybe a little digression on research catagories is in order here...
                          Sources come in three flavours; primary, secondary, tertiary. A primary
                          source is a text (normally untranslated) that was written in period, or an
                          artifact of the period under study. A secondary source is an edited and/or
                          translated primary, or a text which uses primary sources to make it's point or
                          describe it's field of study. A tertiary source is a general overview of a
                          topic, one which uses secondary sources to base it's conclusions or
                          descriptions.
                          An encyclopedia article on the history of archery is tertiary. Robert
                          Hardy's book "Longbow" is secondary, as would be Payne-Gallwey's work "The
                          Crossbow". Ascham is definitely primary, as would be actual bows, quarrels, etc.
                          sitting in museums.
                          This is all a simplification, but that's it basically. What needs to be
                          recognized next, though, is that the distinction between primary and secondary
                          is somewhat blurry, and prone to interpretation to a degree. Ascham is written
                          in early modern English. Does it become secondary if I translate it into modern
                          20th century English? Most would say yes. Is Gervase Markham's work "The Art of
                          Archerie", published in 1614, secondary? Markham was about 46 years old then,
                          and was writing in the light of experience garnered in his twenties and
                          thirties, ie. in period (just barely).
                          A further problem is this: how accurate is Ascham (written in the 1540's)
                          regarding early archery of, say, the time of Agincourt (130 years before)? That
                          is a real can of worms because on the one hand you have to assume that some
                          changes took place over the span of two centuries between the golden age and
                          Aschams age of encroaching decadence. But on the other hand we know that tackle
                          from 1350 was pretty close to identical to tackle of 1550: bowyers in Aschams
                          day practiced about the same as their great great great grandfathers.
                          The fact is, is that primary sources need to be examined and evaluated just
                          as much as any other source; in some ways more so. Just because it's primary
                          doesn't mean it's infallible.
                          Ascham is primary, but to understand period archery you need to look a lot
                          further than just his book.

                          Forester Nigel FitzMaurice (Mid)
                          --

                          Ex Tenebra, Lux

                          http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
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