Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

re: [SCA-Archery] Digest Number 458

Expand Messages
  • theogre@intsvc.com
    I like to listen in on these dialogues and consider myself a newbie at all this. Perhaps I could make an observation concerning the Medieval archer and his
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 2, 2000
      I like to "listen in" on these dialogues and consider myself a newbie at all this. Perhaps I
      could make an observation concerning the Medieval archer and his tackle? In today's
      archery world, many of us have bows and the tackle to go with it. But, how many of us
      actually make this stuff? We have mundane jobs and other time consuming obligations. I'm
      guessing the Medieval archer may have had his "repair kit" with him but did he really make
      the arrows? I would tend to think he "hung out" with a fletcher or at the shop to get advice or
      hints on basic repairs. Maybe after some time, a few years, he would know how to make a
      decent set of arrows. After reading about Ishi and other so-called "primitive" archers, I think
      we grossly underestimate the skill and technological know-how of neolithic or ancient
      craftsmen/women. Just an opinion
      Cordially, Philip of Kentshire, the Obscure. BSD, Atenveldt


      > ** Original Subject: [SCA-Archery] Digest Number 458
      > ** Original Sender: SCA-Archery@egroups.com
      > ** Original Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 23:13:05 -0700

      > ** Original Message follows...

      >
      >
      > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
      > http://www.MedievalMart.com/
      >
      > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
      > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > There are 25 messages in this issue.
      >
      > Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. Re: Spine weight debate
      > From: L Joseph <wodeford@...>
      > 2. Re: RE: new idea
      > From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
      > 3. Re: crossbow bolts
      > From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
      > 4. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
      > 5. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: cgelszus@...
      > 6. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
      > 7. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: "Scott Jaqua" <sjaqua@...>
      > 8. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: cgelszus@...
      > 9. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
      > 10. RE: Spine Scale
      > From: "Block, Alan W" <Alan.Block@...>
      > 11. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: "Scott Jaqua" <sjaqua@...>
      > 12. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
      > 13. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: Jean-Paul Blaquiere <japester@...>
      > 14. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: jrosswebb1@...
      > 15. medieval arrowmaking
      > From: "Hal B. Clark" <hlclark@...>
      > 16. RE: medieval arrowmaking
      > From: "Smalley, Doug" <Doug.Smalley@...>
      > 17. Re: crossbow bolts
      > From: Scott L Hecathorn <robert1015@...>
      > 18. RE: port orford cedar shafts
      > From: Susan Kell <skell@...>
      > 19. RE: Re: port orford cedar shafts
      > From: Susan Kell <skell@...>
      > 20. Coppiced shafts
      > From: archer3@...
      > 21. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
      > 22. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: "Guy Taylor" <greytaylor@...>
      > 23. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
      > 24. Re: Spine Scale
      > From: "Guy Taylor" <greytaylor@...>
      > 25. Re: medieval arrowmaking
      > From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:13:09 -0800 (PST)
      > From: L Joseph <wodeford@...>
      > Subject: Re: Spine weight debate
      >
      > For those archers bemoaning the expense of spine
      > testing and other arrow building equipment, if there
      > are any like-minded (and cooperative) maniacs in your
      > local group, pooling resources may be an option. A
      > couple of folks in my shire split the cost of a Jo-Jan
      > multi-fletcher and share its use. They've also been
      > very nice about lending it out to trustworthy
      > borrowers.
      >
      > Another idea is to throw an arrow making party - or a
      > series of them, where more experienced fletchers teach
      > the newbies, where folks can share loaned equipment,
      > etc. By doing it at a party, you don't have to worry
      > about loaning something out and never getting it back
      > again.
      >
      > Hope this helps,
      > Jehanne de Wodeford, Rusted Woodlands (EAST)
      >
      >
      >
      > =====
      > When longbows are outlawed, only outlaws will have longbows.
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
      > http://shopping.yahoo.com/
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:05:16 -0500
      > From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
      > Subject: Re: RE: new idea
      >
      > Greetings
      >
      > I like the double Elimination with one leg of the double elim being
      > skill(shooting) the other A&S. As they go through the levels the newest
      > bee gets to choose which he wants to do(to the new bee's advantage). The
      > real game is to know the strenghts and weakness of your opponent.
      >
      > James Cunningham
      >
      > > I heard once of a double elimination Arts and Sciences Tourney (yes that's
      > right, 'Tourney') where the entrants were paired up and did 'combat' by
      > debating before the audience the accuracy, quality and documentation for
      > their pieces until one gave the victory to the other. Apparently it was both
      > fun and entertaining for all. We could do something like that, perhaps the
      > audience (including the other contestants) could judge, if the audience
      > can't agree, the contestants shoot head-to-head on some period shoot or
      > other and let the audience choose after that.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 3
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:51:58 -0500
      > From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
      > Subject: Re: crossbow bolts
      >
      > Greetings
      >
      > We have tried both commercial and 9MM shell casings but do not like either.
      >
      > James Cunningham
      >
      > PS tell me privatly how you got the 247 on the winter round and the 400
      > IKAC.
      >
      > > Greetings, just a question, has anyone used a hardwood insert in the butt
      > > end of crossbow shafts? I was just trying to find an alternate way of
      > > reinforcing them so they will last a little longer if I shoot the ends. I
      > > have tried butt caps and I wasn't really to happy with the results. If
      > > anybody out there has any imput, I'm always willing to listen.
      > >
      > > Robert Thorne
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 4
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:49:12 -0500
      > From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
      > Subject: Re: Spine Scale
      >
      > Greetings
      >
      > One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
      > shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not
      > much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.
      >
      > James Cunningham
      >
      > I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a
      > dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according to
      > standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
      > this?
      > >
      > > -- Fritz
      > > --
      > > Carl West
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 5
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 22:58:05 +0100 (MET)
      > From: cgelszus@...
      > Subject: Re: Spine Scale
      >
      > Greetings!
      >
      >
      > Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
      >
      > a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
      > b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
      > c) They still managed to hit stuff.
      >
      > Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
      > beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at least not
      > intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would be to
      > easy. It's ME who's messing up.
      >
      > Will
      > * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented ;o) *
      >
      > > Greetings
      > >
      > > One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
      > > shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is
      > > not
      > > much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.
      > >
      > > James Cunningham
      > >
      > > I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find
      > > in a
      > > dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched
      > > according to
      > > standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
      > > this?
      > > >
      > > > -- Fritz
      > > > --
      > > > Carl West
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
      > > http://www.MedievalMart.com/
      > >
      > > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
      > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 6
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:15:57 -0800
      > From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
      > Subject: Re: Spine Scale
      >
      > > Greetings!
      > >
      > > Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
      > >
      > > a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
      > > b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
      > > c) They still managed to hit stuff.
      > >
      > > Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
      > > beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at least not
      > > intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would be to
      > > easy. It's ME who's messing up.
      > >
      > > Will
      > > * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented ;o) *
      > >
      >
      > As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
      > banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
      > other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
      > amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
      > about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
      > unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
      > as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
      > problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in arrow
      > selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
      >
      > I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
      > only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
      > being taken by the gentlman above.
      >
      > Conchobhar
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 7
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:37:19 -0800
      > From: "Scott Jaqua" <sjaqua@...>
      > Subject: Re: Spine Scale
      >
      > Conchobhar and others,
      >
      > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to anyone
      > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
      > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
      > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows. Practice
      > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
      > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
      > grouping method.
      >
      > Njall Olaf Hagerson
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Prince, John
      > > Greetings!
      > >
      > > a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
      > > b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
      > > c) They still managed to hit stuff.
      > >
      > > Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
      > > beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at
      > least not
      > > intentionally ... ;o) ).
      > As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
      > banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
      > other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
      > amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
      > about for sometime. (snip)
      > I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
      > only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
      > being taken by the gentlman above.
      >
      > Conchobhar
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 8
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 23:55:30 +0100 (MET)
      > From: cgelszus@...
      > Subject: Re: Spine Scale
      >
      > Greetings!
      >
      > .... and I'm absolutely fine with that. In the TBB chapter on handmade
      > arrows James (?) Massey states that he's grouping his shafts by flexing them and
      > going for the 'feel'. I'm sure a medieval fletcher would have had similar
      > skills just based on the amount of experience he must have had with the
      > material. I'm just reluctant to replace that with modern technology and still
      > consider the result to be rlated to medieval reenactment.
      >
      > I also have to admit that sometimes I am enticed to cheat. An arrow rest
      > for example would make shooting much easier. And an undocumented selfbow
      > profile might provide better cast than the ELB design. So far, I've reminded
      > myself of my (personal) reason to start this type of archery - which was to try
      > to get as close to the medieval equivalent as reasonably possible. But this
      > might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
      > ;o)
      >
      > Will
      >
      > > Conchobhar and others,
      > >
      > > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
      > > anyone
      > > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
      > > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
      > > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
      > > Practice
      > > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
      > > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
      > > grouping method.
      > >
      > > Njall Olaf Hagerson
      > >
      >
      > --
      > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 9
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:56:05 -0800
      > From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
      > Subject: Re: Spine Scale
      >
      > > Conchobhar and others,
      > >
      > > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to anyone
      > > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
      > > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
      > > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows. Practice
      > > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
      > > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
      > > grouping method.
      > >
      > > Njall Olaf Hagerson
      > >
      >
      > Good M'Lord,
      >
      > My missive was not met as a critism, only an observation. It would be
      > interesting to determine if your conjecture holds true. I believe
      > that it would take someone who is proficient in the art form to
      > draw any conclusions however. Intuitively, it makes sense.
      >
      > Conchobhar
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 10
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:03:49 -0500
      > From: "Block, Alan W" <Alan.Block@...>Subject: RE: Spine Scale
      >
      > The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a
      > fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time an=
      > d
      > effort than I can afford to get it correct.=20=20
      >
      > -----Original Message-----From: cgelszus@... [mailto:cgelszus@...]
      > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 2:56 PM
      > To: SCA-Archery@egroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Spine Scale
      >
      >
      > Greetings!
      >
      > .... and I'm absolutely fine with that. In the TBB chapter on handmade
      > arrows James (?) Massey states that he's grouping his shafts by flexing the=
      > m
      > and
      > going for the 'feel'. I'm sure a medieval fletcher would have had similar
      > skills just based on the amount of experience he must have had with the
      > material. I'm just reluctant to replace that with modern technology and
      > still
      > consider the result to be rlated to medieval reenactment.
      >
      > I also have to admit that sometimes I am enticed to cheat. An arrow rest
      > for example would make shooting much easier. And an undocumented selfbow
      > profile might provide better cast than the ELB design. So far, I've reminde=
      > d
      > myself of my (personal) reason to start this type of archery - which was to
      > try
      > to get as close to the medieval equivalent as reasonably possible. But this
      > might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
      > ;o)
      >
      > Will
      >
      > > Conchobhar and others,
      > >=20
      > > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
      > > anyone
      > > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
      > > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
      > > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
      > > Practice
      > > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
      > > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
      > > grouping method.
      > >=20
      > > Njall Olaf Hagerson
      > >=20
      >
      > --=20
      > Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net
      >
      >
      > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
      > http://www.MedievalMart.com/
      >
      > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
      > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 11
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:33:29 -0800
      > From: "Scott Jaqua" <sjaqua@...>
      > Subject: Re: Spine Scale
      >
      > I hope I didn't imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were
      > stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It woul=
      > d
      > seem to me that the test would not be a matter of proficiency, but rather
      > research. No it seems to me that Roger Asham recorded almost every other
      > aspect of becoming a good archer in period. From bow selection to choosing
      > the proper teacher. Does anyone recall him writing about arrow matching in
      > hi book?
      >
      > Njall Olaf Hagerson (who admits to reading it so long ago, that the memory
      > of it fails)
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Prince, John
      > >I would hazard a guess that
      > > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
      > > grouping method.
      > >
      > > Njall Olaf Hagerson
      > >
      >
      > Good M'Lord,
      >
      > My missive was not met as a critism, only an observation. It would be
      > interesting to determine if your conjecture holds true. I believe
      > that it would take someone who is proficient in the art form to
      > draw any conclusions however. Intuitively, it makes sense.
      >
      > Conchobhar
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 12
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:47:52 -0800
      > From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
      > Subject: Re: Spine Scale
      >
      >
      > > I hope I didn't imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were
      > > stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It wo=
      > uld
      > > seem to me that the test would not be a matter of proficiency, but rather
      > > research. No it seems to me that Roger Asham recorded almost every other
      > > aspect of becoming a good archer in period. From bow selection to choosin=
      > g
      > > the proper teacher. Does anyone recall him writing about arrow matching i=
      > n
      > > hi book?
      > >=20
      > > Njall Olaf Hagerson (who admits to reading it so long ago, that the memor=
      > y
      > > of it fails)
      > >
      > =20
      > It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
      > set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
      > against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
      > This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps=20
      > "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because=20
      > you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as=20
      > possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
      > "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.
      >
      > Conchobhar
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 13
      > Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:27:53 +0800
      > From: Jean-Paul Blaquiere <japester@...>
      > Subject: Re: Spine Scale
      >
      > > On Dec 01, Block, Alan W scratched in indelible ink :
      >
      > > The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed =
      > a
      > > fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time =
      > and
      > > effort than I can afford to get it correct.=20=20
      > >=20
      > Which is why we use the 'modern' tools like fletching jigs. If i had the
      > time I daresay that I could be silly/insane enough to go and find a tree an=
      > d
      > cut out a nice set of arrows, and probably a bow too. But no yet ;) A
      > comment passed to my by one of the armourers in our group was that if the
      > Vikings had had grinders in their time, they would have used them!
      > I use the tools available to me to make my job of making my toys easier. I =
      > am
      > working on the joy of 'making my toys' but that will be more beneficial to =
      > me
      > when I have more time :)
      >
      > /Jp...
      > --=20
      > Jean-Paul Blaqui=E8re || Avatar of Computational=20
      > japester@... || Thaumaturgy
      > Words are fingers that point at the moon. Once you see the moon, you no
      > longer need the fingers. -- someone, somewhere
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 14
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:27:59 -0500 (EST)
      > From: jrosswebb1@...
      > Subject: Re: Spine Scale
      >
      > Several people, out of a desire to help others improve their shooting
      > and the quality of their arrows, have suggested that they aquire a spine
      > scale and a grain scale. One good gentle even posted an excellent site
      > with plans for making one inexpensively. With some of the responses,
      > you'd think we were asking you to drink "Drano". So please, if the idea
      > offends your sensibilities, please ignore all of the helpful advice, and
      > go about your business as usual.
      > We really don't know a great deal about medieval period archery
      > and its craft. Ashams book "Toxophillus" offers some insight, but was
      > written well after the great age of the longbow and is the writing of an
      > academics tutor, not a great military archer. It is a wonderful book and
      > a must have for any student of archery.but it is not the final word or
      > by any means the complete story. We all seem to quote from it as if it
      > is the word of God. It is just another source.
      > 90% of what we do in the SCA is not
      > period archery or re-creation or even re-enactment, it's modern
      > traditional style archery in costume. There are some that are fiendishly
      > attempting to be accurate, and others that buy a fiberglass bow and want
      > to step to the line with their Simms arrows and play the game, and "it's
      > all good", all are welcomed and encouraged.
      > That's the way it should be. We will not allow much of the real period
      > tackle because it has been deemed unsafe, we've learned over the
      > centuries. And we've learned more about physics and how to measure what
      > we do, and I'd venture to say that in many cases we are probably a lot
      > more accurate archers than our predecessors,IMHO.
      > Play the game anyway you want, I love to play at the romance, make
      > my own self-bows, self nocked arrows with tied on fletches and
      > re-inforced wrapping on the nocks, but I also have and use a moisture
      > meter, a spine scale, a grain scale, a cresting lathe, fletching jigs,
      > feather burner, oh, and yeah, the internet too.
      > -Geoffrei
      >
      >
      > http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 15
      > Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 19:38:37 -0700
      > From: "Hal B. Clark" <hlclark@...>
      > Subject: medieval arrowmaking
      >
      > If the fletcher made arrows 12 to 16 hours a day, when did he shoot?
      >
      > I dinna doubt that those who fletched arrows for the military did sit a
      > fletch for many hours per day.
      > However, I do doubt that these men ever shot a bow. Military arrows
      > were probably made to a standard gauge of straightness finish, and
      > possibly weight. These arrows were than bundled into
      > sheaves which, on the battle field were then placed in baskets. Most
      > archers then shot an arrow
      > "into the air which came down none know where" in mass volley fire. At
      > the larger battles, there may have been 60,000 arrows up there at a
      > time. Accuracy was not a requirement.
      >
      > I am also sure that each archer had a dozen or so arrows on his person
      > that had proven reliable
      > either in practice or were his own make, which he knew were accurate for
      > that time in battle when one shot was all that stood between him and a
      > sharp sticker of some sort.
      >
      > Maybe my thoughts on this are all screwed up but I don't believe the
      > mass produced GI issue arrow was something I would risk my neck on.
      > Walk Tall
      > Gentle Ben
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 16
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:42:49 -0600=20
      > From: "Smalley, Doug" <Doug.Smalley@...>
      > Subject: RE: medieval arrowmaking
      >
      > Hmm... I like your point you make here... it reminds me tho' of something I
      > read in Hardy's "Longbow"... something about being required or somesuch to
      > practice archery under "such-n-suches" reign in England... as I don't have
      > the book handy here at work, anyone remember or know the reference that I'm
      > talking about??=20=20
      >
      > Robert
      > (wonderfull memory... I just read the book again like two months ago...
      > LOL...)
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Hal B. Clark [SMTP:hlclark@...]
      > > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 8:39 PM
      > > To: SCA Archery
      > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] medieval arrowmaking
      > >=20
      > > If the fletcher made arrows 12 to 16 hours a day, when did he shoot?
      > >=20
      > > I dinna doubt that those who fletched arrows for the military did sit a
      > > fletch for many hours per day.
      > > However, I do doubt that these men ever shot a bow. Military arrows
      > > were probably made to a standard gauge of straightness finish, and
      > > possibly weight. These arrows were than bundled into
      > > sheaves which, on the battle field were then placed in baskets. Most
      > > archers then shot an arrow
      > > "into the air which came down none know where" in mass volley fire. At
      > > the larger battles, there may have been 60,000 arrows up there at a
      > > time. Accuracy was not a requirement.
      > >=20
      > > I am also sure that each archer had a dozen or so arrows on his person
      > > that had proven reliable
      > > either in practice or were his own make, which he knew were accurate for
      > > that time in battle when one shot was all that stood between him and a
      > > sharp sticker of some sort.
      > >=20
      > > Maybe my thoughts on this are all screwed up but I don't believe the
      > > mass produced GI issue arrow was something I would risk my neck on.
      > > Walk Tall
      > > Gentle Ben
      > >=20
      > >=20
      > >=20
      > > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
      > > http://www.MedievalMart.com/
      > >=20
      > > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
      > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
      > >=20
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 17
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:12:18 -0500
      > From: Scott L Hecathorn <robert1015@...>
      > Subject: Re: crossbow bolts
      >
      > With my first set of bolts I used the very last 3/16" of the nock as a
      > reinforcement, which did work, if not a little unsightly. It worked out
      > rather well because I was shooting 11/32" and using 5/16" nocks to avoid
      > catching a lip from where the nock met the shaft. But now I am shooting
      > 5/16" with brass risers at the end and tried that method a couple of time
      > with many wormburners and mole hunters, some of which I am still finding
      > 3 1/2 years later (not that pretty either).
      >
      > Robert Thorne
      > ________________________________________________________________
      > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
      > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
      > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
      > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 18
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:46:25 -0500
      > From: Susan Kell <skell@...>
      > Subject: RE: port orford cedar shafts
      >
      > To Siegfried & Geoffrei -
      >
      > Thank you for the high praise! Li and I try very hard to ensure our cedar=
      > =20
      > is tightly matched. We are still charging $20 per dozen, plus shipping.=20
      > (We just got hit with Stotler's annual price increase, so our price may=20
      > have to change in the foreseeable future.)
      > If any readers here want shafts, please phone Master Li to discuss your=20
      > needs. (508-620-6620)
      >
      > -- Ygraine of Kellswood & Li Kung Lo
      >
      > PS -- The spelling was just fine. A minor correction, though, on who does=20
      > the work -- it's not done by our now-dissolved household, rather by our=20
      > friends & students (& ourselves) who earn a "sweat equity" cedar discount!=
      > =20
      > FWIW, we would rather teach for free than fletch for below minimum wage;=20
      > book a learning visit with us in MA!
      >
      >
      > On Thursday, November 30, 2000 2:20 PM, Siegfried Sebastian Faust=20
      > [SMTP:eliwhite@...] wrote:
      > > Buy your shafts from someone who does the matching for you ...
      > >
      > > Master Li Kung Lo (Sorry, really bad spelling, I know), in the East does
      > > this. He buys in huge bulk, and has his household weigh to +-1 grain and=
      > =20
      > > match spine ... Don't know his prices off hand for a dozen shafts, but it=
      > =20
      > > is very reasonable for what you are getting ...
      > >
      > > Many archers around here order from him.
      > >
      > > (Personally, being a crossbowman, I have a grain scale purchased from=20
      > Ebay,
      > > and don't care too much about spine ... just 'heavy' works for me *grin*)
      > >
      > > Siegfried
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      >
      > Message: 19
      > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:54:20 -0500
      > From: Susan Kell <skell@...>
      > Subject: RE: Re: port orford cedar shafts
      >
      > Hi Dalton -
      > AFAIK, that's still true. To get smaller quantities (but still hundreds...=
      > ) of their shafts, we buy through Stotler.
      > -- Ygraine
      >
      > On Wednesday, November 29, 2000 7:43 PM, Ice Tiger [SMTP:ice.tiger@...=
      > ] wrote:
      > > As far as the last time I spoke with them the minimum order from Rose Cit=
      > y is
      > > 5000 shafts. They may have changed but I don't know and that was fairly
      > > recent.
      > > Dalton
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      > __

      Message truncated at 32K

      >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **

      >


      "Pris de fer, Riposte"

      Download the Lycos Browser at http://lycos.neoplanet.com
    • Charley Olenak
      ... From: SCA-Archery@egroups.com [SMTP:SCA-Archery@egroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 12:42 AM To: SCA-Archery@egroups.com Subject: [SCA-Archery]
      Message 2 of 2 , Dec 2, 2000
        -----Original Message-----
        From: SCA-Archery@egroups.com [SMTP:SCA-Archery@egroups.com]
        Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 12:42 AM
        To: SCA-Archery@egroups.com
        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Digest Number 458


        Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
        http://www.MedievalMart.com/

        Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
        [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        There are 25 messages in this issue.

        Topics in this digest:

        1. Re: Spine weight debate
        From: L Joseph <wodeford@...>
        2. Re: RE: new idea
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        3. Re: crossbow bolts
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        4. Re: Spine Scale
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        5. Re: Spine Scale
        From: cgelszus@...
        6. Re: Spine Scale
        From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
        7. Re: Spine Scale
        From: "Scott Jaqua" <sjaqua@...>
        8. Re: Spine Scale
        From: cgelszus@...
        9. Re: Spine Scale
        From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
        10. RE: Spine Scale
        From: "Block, Alan W" <Alan.Block@...>
        11. Re: Spine Scale
        From: "Scott Jaqua" <sjaqua@...>
        12. Re: Spine Scale
        From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
        13. Re: Spine Scale
        From: Jean-Paul Blaquiere <japester@...>
        14. Re: Spine Scale
        From: jrosswebb1@...
        15. medieval arrowmaking
        From: "Hal B. Clark" <hlclark@...>
        16. RE: medieval arrowmaking
        From: "Smalley, Doug" <Doug.Smalley@...>
        17. Re: crossbow bolts
        From: Scott L Hecathorn <robert1015@...>
        18. RE: port orford cedar shafts
        From: Susan Kell <skell@...>
        19. RE: Re: port orford cedar shafts
        From: Susan Kell <skell@...>
        20. Coppiced shafts
        From: archer3@...
        21. Re: Spine Scale
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        22. Re: Spine Scale
        From: "Guy Taylor" <greytaylor@...>
        23. Re: Spine Scale
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        24. Re: Spine Scale
        From: "Guy Taylor" <greytaylor@...>
        25. Re: medieval arrowmaking
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 1
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:13:09 -0800 (PST)
        From: L Joseph <wodeford@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine weight debate

        For those archers bemoaning the expense of spine
        testing and other arrow building equipment, if there
        are any like-minded (and cooperative) maniacs in your
        local group, pooling resources may be an option. A
        couple of folks in my shire split the cost of a Jo-Jan
        multi-fletcher and share its use. They've also been
        very nice about lending it out to trustworthy
        borrowers.

        Another idea is to throw an arrow making party - or a
        series of them, where more experienced fletchers teach
        the newbies, where folks can share loaned equipment,
        etc. By doing it at a party, you don't have to worry
        about loaning something out and never getting it back
        again.

        Hope this helps,
        Jehanne de Wodeford, Rusted Woodlands (EAST)



        =====
        When longbows are outlawed, only outlaws will have longbows.

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
        http://shopping.yahoo.com/


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 2
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:05:16 -0500
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        Subject: Re: RE: new idea

        Greetings

        I like the double Elimination with one leg of the double elim being
        skill(shooting) the other A&S. As they go through the levels the newest
        bee gets to choose which he wants to do(to the new bee's advantage). The
        real game is to know the strenghts and weakness of your opponent.

        James Cunningham

        > I heard once of a double elimination Arts and Sciences Tourney (yes that's
        right, 'Tourney') where the entrants were paired up and did 'combat' by
        debating before the audience the accuracy, quality and documentation for
        their pieces until one gave the victory to the other. Apparently it was both
        fun and entertaining for all. We could do something like that, perhaps the
        audience (including the other contestants) could judge, if the audience
        can't agree, the contestants shoot head-to-head on some period shoot or
        other and let the audience choose after that.
        >




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 3
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:51:58 -0500
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        Subject: Re: crossbow bolts

        Greetings

        We have tried both commercial and 9MM shell casings but do not like either.

        James Cunningham

        PS tell me privatly how you got the 247 on the winter round and the 400
        IKAC.

        > Greetings, just a question, has anyone used a hardwood insert in the butt
        > end of crossbow shafts? I was just trying to find an alternate way of
        > reinforcing them so they will last a little longer if I shoot the ends. I
        > have tried butt caps and I wasn't really to happy with the results. If
        > anybody out there has any imput, I'm always willing to listen.
        >
        > Robert Thorne




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 4
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:49:12 -0500
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        Greetings

        One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
        shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not
        much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.

        James Cunningham

        I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a
        dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according to
        standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
        this?
        >
        > -- Fritz
        > --
        > Carl West




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 5
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 22:58:05 +0100 (MET)
        From: cgelszus@...
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        Greetings!


        Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)

        a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
        b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
        c) They still managed to hit stuff.

        Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
        beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at least not
        intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would be to
        easy. It's ME who's messing up.

        Will
        * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented ;o) *

        > Greetings
        >
        > One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
        > shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is
        > not
        > much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.
        >
        > James Cunningham
        >
        > I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find
        > in a
        > dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched
        > according to
        > standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
        > this?
        > >
        > > -- Fritz
        > > --
        > > Carl West
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
        > http://www.MedievalMart.com/
        >
        > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
        > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
        >
        >

        --
        Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 6
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:15:57 -0800
        From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        > Greetings!
        >
        > Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
        >
        > a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
        > b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
        > c) They still managed to hit stuff.
        >
        > Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
        > beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at least not
        > intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would be to
        > easy. It's ME who's messing up.
        >
        > Will
        > * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented ;o) *
        >

        As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
        banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
        other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
        amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
        about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
        unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
        as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
        problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in arrow
        selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.

        I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
        only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
        being taken by the gentlman above.

        Conchobhar





        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 7
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:37:19 -0800
        From: "Scott Jaqua" <sjaqua@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        Conchobhar and others,

        While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to anyone
        else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
        making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
        tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows. Practice
        for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
        they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
        grouping method.

        Njall Olaf Hagerson

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Prince, John
        > Greetings!
        >
        > a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
        > b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
        > c) They still managed to hit stuff.
        >
        > Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
        > beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at
        least not
        > intentionally ... ;o) ).
        As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
        banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
        other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
        amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
        about for sometime. (snip)
        I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
        only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
        being taken by the gentlman above.

        Conchobhar




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 8
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 23:55:30 +0100 (MET)
        From: cgelszus@...
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        Greetings!

        ... and I'm absolutely fine with that. In the TBB chapter on handmade
        arrows James (?) Massey states that he's grouping his shafts by flexing them and
        going for the 'feel'. I'm sure a medieval fletcher would have had similar
        skills just based on the amount of experience he must have had with the
        material. I'm just reluctant to replace that with modern technology and still
        consider the result to be rlated to medieval reenactment.

        I also have to admit that sometimes I am enticed to cheat. An arrow rest
        for example would make shooting much easier. And an undocumented selfbow
        profile might provide better cast than the ELB design. So far, I've reminded
        myself of my (personal) reason to start this type of archery - which was to try
        to get as close to the medieval equivalent as reasonably possible. But this
        might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
        ;o)

        Will

        > Conchobhar and others,
        >
        > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
        > anyone
        > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
        > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
        > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
        > Practice
        > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
        > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
        > grouping method.
        >
        > Njall Olaf Hagerson
        >

        --
        Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 9
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:56:05 -0800
        From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        > Conchobhar and others,
        >
        > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to anyone
        > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
        > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
        > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows. Practice
        > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
        > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
        > grouping method.
        >
        > Njall Olaf Hagerson
        >

        Good M'Lord,

        My missive was not met as a critism, only an observation. It would be
        interesting to determine if your conjecture holds true. I believe
        that it would take someone who is proficient in the art form to
        draw any conclusions however. Intuitively, it makes sense.

        Conchobhar




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 10
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:03:49 -0500
        From: "Block, Alan W" <Alan.Block@...>
        Subject: RE: Spine Scale

        The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a
        fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time and
        effort than I can afford to get it correct.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: cgelszus@... [mailto:cgelszus@...]
        Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 2:56 PM
        To: SCA-Archery@egroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Spine Scale


        Greetings!

        ... and I'm absolutely fine with that. In the TBB chapter on handmade
        arrows James (?) Massey states that he's grouping his shafts by flexing them
        and
        going for the 'feel'. I'm sure a medieval fletcher would have had similar
        skills just based on the amount of experience he must have had with the
        material. I'm just reluctant to replace that with modern technology and
        still
        consider the result to be rlated to medieval reenactment.

        I also have to admit that sometimes I am enticed to cheat. An arrow rest
        for example would make shooting much easier. And an undocumented selfbow
        profile might provide better cast than the ELB design. So far, I've reminded
        myself of my (personal) reason to start this type of archery - which was to
        try
        to get as close to the medieval equivalent as reasonably possible. But this
        might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
        ;o)

        Will

        > Conchobhar and others,
        >
        > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
        > anyone
        > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
        > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
        > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
        > Practice
        > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
        > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
        > grouping method.
        >
        > Njall Olaf Hagerson
        >

        --
        Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net


        Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
        http://www.MedievalMart.com/

        Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
        [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 11
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:33:29 -0800
        From: "Scott Jaqua" <sjaqua@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        I hope I didn't imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were
        stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It would
        seem to me that the test would not be a matter of proficiency, but rather
        research. No it seems to me that Roger Asham recorded almost every other
        aspect of becoming a good archer in period. From bow selection to choosing
        the proper teacher. Does anyone recall him writing about arrow matching in
        hi book?

        Njall Olaf Hagerson (who admits to reading it so long ago, that the memory
        of it fails)

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Prince, John
        >I would hazard a guess that
        > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
        > grouping method.
        >
        > Njall Olaf Hagerson
        >

        Good M'Lord,

        My missive was not met as a critism, only an observation. It would be
        interesting to determine if your conjecture holds true. I believe
        that it would take someone who is proficient in the art form to
        draw any conclusions however. Intuitively, it makes sense.

        Conchobhar



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 12
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:47:52 -0800
        From: "Prince, John" <jbprince@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale


        > I hope I didn't imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were
        > stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It would
        > seem to me that the test would not be a matter of proficiency, but rather
        > research. No it seems to me that Roger Asham recorded almost every other
        > aspect of becoming a good archer in period. From bow selection to choosing
        > the proper teacher. Does anyone recall him writing about arrow matching in
        > hi book?
        >
        > Njall Olaf Hagerson (who admits to reading it so long ago, that the memory
        > of it fails)
        >

        It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
        set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
        against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
        This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps
        "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because
        you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as
        possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
        "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.

        Conchobhar


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 13
        Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:27:53 +0800
        From: Jean-Paul Blaquiere <japester@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        > On Dec 01, Block, Alan W scratched in indelible ink :

        > The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a
        > fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time and
        > effort than I can afford to get it correct.
        >
        Which is why we use the 'modern' tools like fletching jigs. If i had the
        time I daresay that I could be silly/insane enough to go and find a tree and
        cut out a nice set of arrows, and probably a bow too. But no yet ;) A
        comment passed to my by one of the armourers in our group was that if the
        Vikings had had grinders in their time, they would have used them!
        I use the tools available to me to make my job of making my toys easier. I am
        working on the joy of 'making my toys' but that will be more beneficial to me
        when I have more time :)

        /Jp...
        --
        Jean-Paul Blaquiere || Avatar of Computational
        japester@... || Thaumaturgy
        Words are fingers that point at the moon. Once you see the moon, you no
        longer need the fingers. -- someone, somewhere



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 14
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:27:59 -0500 (EST)
        From: jrosswebb1@...
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        Several people, out of a desire to help others improve their shooting
        and the quality of their arrows, have suggested that they aquire a spine
        scale and a grain scale. One good gentle even posted an excellent site
        with plans for making one inexpensively. With some of the responses,
        you'd think we were asking you to drink "Drano". So please, if the idea
        offends your sensibilities, please ignore all of the helpful advice, and
        go about your business as usual.
        We really don't know a great deal about medieval period archery
        and its craft. Ashams book "Toxophillus" offers some insight, but was
        written well after the great age of the longbow and is the writing of an
        academics tutor, not a great military archer. It is a wonderful book and
        a must have for any student of archery.but it is not the final word or
        by any means the complete story. We all seem to quote from it as if it
        is the word of God. It is just another source.
        90% of what we do in the SCA is not
        period archery or re-creation or even re-enactment, it's modern
        traditional style archery in costume. There are some that are fiendishly
        attempting to be accurate, and others that buy a fiberglass bow and want
        to step to the line with their Simms arrows and play the game, and "it's
        all good", all are welcomed and encouraged.
        That's the way it should be. We will not allow much of the real period
        tackle because it has been deemed unsafe, we've learned over the
        centuries. And we've learned more about physics and how to measure what
        we do, and I'd venture to say that in many cases we are probably a lot
        more accurate archers than our predecessors,IMHO.
        Play the game anyway you want, I love to play at the romance, make
        my own self-bows, self nocked arrows with tied on fletches and
        re-inforced wrapping on the nocks, but I also have and use a moisture
        meter, a spine scale, a grain scale, a cresting lathe, fletching jigs,
        feather burner, oh, and yeah, the internet too.
        -Geoffrei

        I have yet to see any one shoot as good as H HILL did with wooded bows and hw did it be for f-------------s .
        http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 15
        Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 19:38:37 -0700
        From: "Hal B. Clark" <hlclark@...>
        Subject: medieval arrowmaking

        If the fletcher made arrows 12 to 16 hours a day, when did he shoot?

        I dinna doubt that those who fletched arrows for the military did sit a
        fletch for many hours per day.
        However, I do doubt that these men ever shot a bow. Military arrows
        were probably made to a standard gauge of straightness finish, and
        possibly weight. These arrows were than bundled into
        sheaves which, on the battle field were then placed in baskets. Most
        archers then shot an arrow
        "into the air which came down none know where" in mass volley fire. At
        the larger battles, there may have been 60,000 arrows up there at a
        time. Accuracy was not a requirement.

        I am also sure that each archer had a dozen or so arrows on his person
        that had proven reliable
        either in practice or were his own make, which he knew were accurate for
        that time in battle when one shot was all that stood between him and a
        sharp sticker of some sort.

        Maybe my thoughts on this are all screwed up but I don't believe the
        mass produced GI issue arrow was something I would risk my neck on.
        Walk Tall
        Gentle Ben



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 16
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:42:49 -0600
        From: "Smalley, Doug" <Doug.Smalley@...>
        Subject: RE: medieval arrowmaking

        Hmm... I like your point you make here... it reminds me tho' of something I
        read in Hardy's "Longbow"... something about being required or somesuch to
        practice archery under "such-n-suches" reign in England... as I don't have
        the book handy here at work, anyone remember or know the reference that I'm
        talking about??

        Robert
        (wonderfull memory... I just read the book again like two months ago...
        LOL...)

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Hal B. Clark [SMTP:hlclark@...]
        > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 8:39 PM
        > To: SCA Archery
        > Subject: [SCA-Archery] medieval arrowmaking
        >
        > If the fletcher made arrows 12 to 16 hours a day, when did he shoot?
        >
        > I dinna doubt that those who fletched arrows for the military did sit a
        > fletch for many hours per day.
        > However, I do doubt that these men ever shot a bow. Military arrows
        > were probably made to a standard gauge of straightness finish, and
        > possibly weight. These arrows were than bundled into
        > sheaves which, on the battle field were then placed in baskets. Most
        > archers then shot an arrow
        > "into the air which came down none know where" in mass volley fire. At
        > the larger battles, there may have been 60,000 arrows up there at a
        > time. Accuracy was not a requirement.
        >
        > I am also sure that each archer had a dozen or so arrows on his person
        > that had proven reliable
        > either in practice or were his own make, which he knew were accurate for
        > that time in battle when one shot was all that stood between him and a
        > sharp sticker of some sort.
        >
        > Maybe my thoughts on this are all screwed up but I don't believe the
        > mass produced GI issue arrow was something I would risk my neck on.
        > Walk Tall
        > Gentle Ben
        >
        >
        >
        > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
        > http://www.MedievalMart.com/
        >
        > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
        > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
        >


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 17
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:12:18 -0500
        From: Scott L Hecathorn <robert1015@...>
        Subject: Re: crossbow bolts

        With my first set of bolts I used the very last 3/16" of the nock as a
        reinforcement, which did work, if not a little unsightly. It worked out
        rather well because I was shooting 11/32" and using 5/16" nocks to avoid
        catching a lip from where the nock met the shaft. But now I am shooting
        5/16" with brass risers at the end and tried that method a couple of time
        with many wormburners and mole hunters, some of which I am still finding
        3 1/2 years later (not that pretty either).

        Robert Thorne
        ________________________________________________________________
        GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
        Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
        Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
        http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 18
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:46:25 -0500
        From: Susan Kell <skell@...>
        Subject: RE: port orford cedar shafts

        To Siegfried & Geoffrei -

        Thank you for the high praise! Li and I try very hard to ensure our cedar
        is tightly matched. We are still charging $20 per dozen, plus shipping.
        (We just got hit with Stotler's annual price increase, so our price may
        have to change in the foreseeable future.)
        If any readers here want shafts, please phone Master Li to discuss your
        needs. (508-620-6620)

        -- Ygraine of Kellswood & Li Kung Lo

        PS -- The spelling was just fine. A minor correction, though, on who does
        the work -- it's not done by our now-dissolved household, rather by our
        friends & students (& ourselves) who earn a "sweat equity" cedar discount!
        FWIW, we would rather teach for free than fletch for below minimum wage;
        book a learning visit with us in MA!


        On Thursday, November 30, 2000 2:20 PM, Siegfried Sebastian Faust
        [SMTP:eliwhite@...] wrote:
        > Buy your shafts from someone who does the matching for you ...
        >
        > Master Li Kung Lo (Sorry, really bad spelling, I know), in the East does
        > this. He buys in huge bulk, and has his household weigh to +-1 grain and
        > match spine ... Don't know his prices off hand for a dozen shafts, but it
        > is very reasonable for what you are getting ...
        >
        > Many archers around here order from him.
        >
        > (Personally, being a crossbowman, I have a grain scale purchased from
        Ebay,
        > and don't care too much about spine ... just 'heavy' works for me *grin*)
        >
        > Siegfried


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 19
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:54:20 -0500
        From: Susan Kell <skell@...>
        Subject: RE: Re: port orford cedar shafts

        Hi Dalton -
        AFAIK, that's still true. To get smaller quantities (but still hundreds...) of their shafts, we buy through Stotler.
        -- Ygraine

        On Wednesday, November 29, 2000 7:43 PM, Ice Tiger [SMTP:ice.tiger@...] wrote:
        > As far as the last time I spoke with them the minimum order from Rose City is
        > 5000 shafts. They may have changed but I don't know and that was fairly
        > recent.
        > Dalton


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 20
        Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:21:18 -0700 (MST)
        From: archer3@...
        Subject: Coppiced shafts

        All this talk of spine scales and carving shafts has brought back to
        mind something that was pointed out to me some time ago, coppiced
        shafts.
        I have a fine stand of elm saplings that I have my eye on. I realize
        that elm shafts may not be the premier choice, but they are on my
        property and for a first experiment seem a reasonable place to start.
        It has always seemed to me that part of "period" was folks using the
        materials at hand, which didn't always mean using the "prime" materials.
        I'm thinking to try them off both my longbow (which the English did
        not have a monopoly on, they merely made it famous) and my crossbow.
        Anyone perchance have some references handy, or advice that they would
        care to share?
        I'm also thinking that chested shafts with either a short tang or
        cross tang are the way to go........for fletching I have on hand various
        goose, turkey, peacock, etc.

        Damian >>~~~>
        Visit the Outlands Archery page at
        http://members.iex.net/~norseman/outlands/archgen.html



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 21
        Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 01:00:04 -0500
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I
        have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to
        Drachenwald? If and when you do have them shoot the Winter Challenge.

        James Cunningham


        But this
        > might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
        > ;o)
        >
        > Will




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 22
        Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 06:03:17 -0000
        From: "Guy Taylor" <greytaylor@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

        > It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
        > set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
        > against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
        > This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps
        > "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because
        > you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as
        > possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
        > "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.
        >
        > Conchobhar

        This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own
        primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he
        does not always use it. Another simply bends the shafts he makes in
        his hands and grades them by feel. Feathers are put on without
        benefit of a fletching jig but I have seen Tom use his toes, not sure
        if that is period or not but it works for him. He will shape
        feathers either with scissors of a burning coal. Pyrographic
        decoration is done with the sun and a magnifying glass. Finished
        arrows are further graded by actual shooting into the two classes of
        the good ones and the ones that get the "Wonder if I can hit that
        from here?" shots. The latter are frequently unrecovererable in the
        bushes.

        Taillear



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 23
        Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 01:07:53 -0500
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice
        Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer,
        the only time I would need more than two arrows would be durring a war. For
        the Hunters out there how many of you have taken more than two shots a deer
        befor you retrieved arrows?

        Intuitively, it makes sense.




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 24
        Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 06:10:50 -0000
        From: "Guy Taylor" <greytaylor@...>
        Subject: Re: Spine Scale

        --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

        > As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
        > banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
        > other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
        > amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
        > about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
        > unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
        > as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
        > problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in
        arrow
        > selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
        >
        > I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
        > only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
        > being taken by the gentlman above.
        >
        > Conchobhar

        Different persons get different things from their SCA participation.
        This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
        traditional archer first, the SCA is a game I play on the weekends to
        be with some good people and to get another chance to shoot my
        equipment in a friendly atmosphere.
        Not to disparage anyone else's SCA experience but whenever I see
        someone sign their letters with "In service to the Dream." I am
        minded of the tagline that talks about this being what I do on the
        weekends, the Dream consists of a blond, a red head, a gallon of
        chocolate syrup... etc. :-)



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 25
        Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 01:22:55 -0500
        From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
        Subject: Re: medieval arrowmaking

        This makes more sense...now how do we prove it?

        James Cunningham
        Former expert in long range Artillery ie:USAF

        in mass volley fire. At
        > the larger battles, there may have been 60,000 arrows up there at a
        > time. Accuracy was not a requirement.
        >
        > I am also sure that each archer had a dozen or so arrows on his person
        > that had proven reliable
        > either in practice or were his own make, which he knew were accurate for
        > that time in battle when one shot was all that stood between him and a
        > sharp sticker of some sort.




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.