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Re: Spine Scale

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  • Guy Taylor
    ... arrow ... Different persons get different things from their SCA participation. This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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      --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

      > As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
      > banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
      > other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
      > amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
      > about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
      > unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
      > as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
      > problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in
      arrow
      > selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
      >
      > I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
      > only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
      > being taken by the gentlman above.
      >
      > Conchobhar

      Different persons get different things from their SCA participation.
      This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
      traditional archer first, the SCA is a game I play on the weekends to
      be with some good people and to get another chance to shoot my
      equipment in a friendly atmosphere.
      Not to disparage anyone else's SCA experience but whenever I see
      someone sign their letters with "In service to the Dream." I am
      minded of the tagline that talks about this being what I do on the
      weekends, the Dream consists of a blond, a red head, a gallon of
      chocolate syrup... etc. :-)
    • Karl Sandhoff
      The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the intricacies of arrow making, they just didn t have the tools and had to use other
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 2, 2000
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        The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the
        intricacies of arrow making, they just didn't have the tools and had to
        use other techniques (such as a balance scale to make sure all
        shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other). Drying oils
        such as linseed seal as well as varnish. The big difference was that
        they didn't do this for war (never fall in love with your ammunition) and
        sport didn't get written about as much. Their form of sport was somewhat
        different as well. So while a perfectly matched set might be produced as
        a gift to a high ranking noble, they really didn't need them as much as
        they used them differently. The technologies and tools used in the shops
        to make gear were always more sophisticated and precise than the gear
        made and used in then field.

        Njall Hagerson wrote:
        While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
        anyone
        else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
        making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
        tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
        Practice
        for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
        they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
        grouping method.

        Reply -
        And this is the crux of the issue because no matter how well the arrows
        were matched, the was no quantifiable way to match them to a bow. In
        fact, wood bows change their dynamics through their lives as they begin
        to take a set, lose elasticity, etc. Thus the arrows perfectly matched
        to it have to change.

        In service to the dream,
        Carolus von Eulenhorst

        On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:15:57 -0800 "Prince, John"
        <jbprince@...> writes:
        >> Greetings!
        >>
        >> Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
        >>
        >> a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
        >> b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
        >> c) They still managed to hit stuff.
        >>
        >> Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
        >> beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well
        >(at least not
        >> intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would
        >be to
        >> easy. It's ME who's messing up.
        >>
        >> Will
        >> * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented
        >;o) *
        >>
        >
        >As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
        >banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
        >other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
        >amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
        >about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
        >unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
        >as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
        >problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in arrow
        >selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
        >
        >I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
        >only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
        >being taken by the gentlman above.
        >
        >Conchobhar
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
        >
        >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
        >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
        >
        >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
        >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
        >
        >

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      • Elizabeth Pidgeon
        Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell degridation . Carl
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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          Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly
          stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell
          degridation .
          Carl
          Message text written by INTERNET:SCA-Archery@egroups.com
          >
          Greetings

          One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
          shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not
          much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.

          James Cunningham

          I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a
          dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according
          to
          standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
          this?<
        • James W. Pratt Jr.
          snip (such as a balance scale to make sure all ... snip Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the Viking )...what I have not found is fletchers or
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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            snip
            (such as a balance scale to make sure all
            > shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
            snip

            Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I have
            not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to prove it.
            Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a conjecture.
            But I have already asked how much good is that.

            spip
            The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always more
            sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
            snip

            I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any modern
            fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a big
            part of making the best arrows.

            James Cunningham
          • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
            To All, Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine. Ask any master arrowmaker even in
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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              To All,
              Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in
              medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine.
              Ask any master arrowmaker even in our society about this. I shoot
              heavier than average bows,70# plus, and although I am
              compulsive about weighing, spine and grain weight, I am constantly
              reminded by great fletchers such as Master Li Kung Lo and others that
              the close matching of spines at that weight and speed is NOT AS critical
              as it is on lighter weight bows and arrows, you just need to make sure
              you are not shooting under-spined arrows, or, DISASTER! On lighter
              weight bows (under 60#, by medieval standards) it is very critical. I
              don't know why this is, perhaps there are experts out there that can
              explain it better, but it is shown in practice.
              So, even though you are using a nifty little self bow that you've
              made that draws at 40# at 28" with self nocked arrows with tied on
              fletching, you cannot compare what you are doing to the "classic"
              British war bow which drew at between 80# for those weaker gents up to
              170# for the "knuckle scrapers".
              All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
              geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
              the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
              their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
              paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter weight
              target bows is very different, much more critical of weight difference,
              a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
              archer error on release.
              One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the Mary
              Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they were
              estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
              arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in at
              over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
              120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
              This isn't the type of archery that we do.
              -Geoffrei


              http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
            • Karl Sandhoff
              Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or 15th century
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach
                there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or
                15th century from the archives of the "Fletcher's Guild" (I don't recall
                the exact Guild name) in London which clearly showed a balance scale on
                the workbench next to a pile of materials and several completed arrows.
                While I know that the jewlers and goldsmiths had similar scales with
                precise wieghts to measure against, I did not see any such weights in the
                image and did not wish to imply facts from evidence not in view. In
                addition, my experience with engine rebuilding had me balancing engine
                parts against each other to achieve balance though the exact weight was
                not important. We used a similar balance system. Thus, my deduction of
                one possible conclusion. Since I no longer am near the University, I
                will have to wait on trying to find the book again until I get back with
                time to spend (I do still have library priveledges).
                In service to the dream,
                Carolus von Eulenhorst

                On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 12:08:44 -0500 "James W. Pratt Jr."
                <cunning@...> writes:
                >snip
                >(such as a balance scale to make sure all
                >> shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                >snip
                >
                >Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I
                >have
                >not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to
                >prove it.
                >Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a
                >conjecture.
                >But I have already asked how much good is that.
                >
                >spip
                > The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always
                >more
                >sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                >snip
                >
                >I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any
                >modern
                >fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a
                >big
                >part of making the best arrows.
                >
                >James Cunningham
                >
                >
                >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                >
                >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                >
                >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                >
                >

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              • Karl Sandhoff
                Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery spor of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and Crecy. If one
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                  Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery
                  spor" of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and
                  Crecy. If one were to examine the equipment of war vs. the equipment of
                  sport (including hunting) one will find the sport equipment much finer,
                  more precise, and delicate (though by no means fragile) than that for
                  war. We often seem to be arguing to cross purposes as even the sport is
                  still in period, albeit late period.
                  In service to the dream,
                  Carolus von Eulenhorst

                  On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:44:18 -0500 (EST) jrosswebb1@... writes:
                  >To All,
                  > snip<
                  > All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                  >geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                  >the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                  >their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                  >paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter
                  >weight
                  >target bows is very different, much more critical of weight
                  >difference,
                  >a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                  >archer error on release.
                  > One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the
                  >Mary
                  >Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they
                  >were
                  >estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                  >arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in
                  >at
                  >over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                  >120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                  > This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                  >-Geoffrei
                  >
                  >
                  >http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                  >
                  >
                  >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                  >
                  >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                  >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                  >
                  >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                  >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                  >
                  >

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