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Re: [SCA-Archery] Spine Scale

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  • James W. Pratt Jr.
    I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to Drachenwald? If
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
      I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I
      have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to
      Drachenwald? If and when you do have them shoot the Winter Challenge.

      James Cunningham


      But this
      > might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
      > ;o)
      >
      > Will
    • Guy Taylor
      ... This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he does not always use it.
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
        --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

        > It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
        > set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
        > against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
        > This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps
        > "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because
        > you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as
        > possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
        > "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.
        >
        > Conchobhar

        This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own
        primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he
        does not always use it. Another simply bends the shafts he makes in
        his hands and grades them by feel. Feathers are put on without
        benefit of a fletching jig but I have seen Tom use his toes, not sure
        if that is period or not but it works for him. He will shape
        feathers either with scissors of a burning coal. Pyrographic
        decoration is done with the sun and a magnifying glass. Finished
        arrows are further graded by actual shooting into the two classes of
        the good ones and the ones that get the "Wonder if I can hit that
        from here?" shots. The latter are frequently unrecovererable in the
        bushes.

        Taillear
      • James W. Pratt Jr.
        I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer, the only
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
          I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice
          Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer,
          the only time I would need more than two arrows would be durring a war. For
          the Hunters out there how many of you have taken more than two shots a deer
          befor you retrieved arrows?

          Intuitively, it makes sense.
        • Guy Taylor
          ... arrow ... Different persons get different things from their SCA participation. This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
            --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

            > As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
            > banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
            > other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
            > amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
            > about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
            > unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
            > as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
            > problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in
            arrow
            > selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
            >
            > I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
            > only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
            > being taken by the gentlman above.
            >
            > Conchobhar

            Different persons get different things from their SCA participation.
            This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
            traditional archer first, the SCA is a game I play on the weekends to
            be with some good people and to get another chance to shoot my
            equipment in a friendly atmosphere.
            Not to disparage anyone else's SCA experience but whenever I see
            someone sign their letters with "In service to the Dream." I am
            minded of the tagline that talks about this being what I do on the
            weekends, the Dream consists of a blond, a red head, a gallon of
            chocolate syrup... etc. :-)
          • Karl Sandhoff
            The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the intricacies of arrow making, they just didn t have the tools and had to use other
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 2, 2000
              The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the
              intricacies of arrow making, they just didn't have the tools and had to
              use other techniques (such as a balance scale to make sure all
              shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other). Drying oils
              such as linseed seal as well as varnish. The big difference was that
              they didn't do this for war (never fall in love with your ammunition) and
              sport didn't get written about as much. Their form of sport was somewhat
              different as well. So while a perfectly matched set might be produced as
              a gift to a high ranking noble, they really didn't need them as much as
              they used them differently. The technologies and tools used in the shops
              to make gear were always more sophisticated and precise than the gear
              made and used in then field.

              Njall Hagerson wrote:
              While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
              anyone
              else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
              making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
              tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
              Practice
              for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
              they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
              grouping method.

              Reply -
              And this is the crux of the issue because no matter how well the arrows
              were matched, the was no quantifiable way to match them to a bow. In
              fact, wood bows change their dynamics through their lives as they begin
              to take a set, lose elasticity, etc. Thus the arrows perfectly matched
              to it have to change.

              In service to the dream,
              Carolus von Eulenhorst

              On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:15:57 -0800 "Prince, John"
              <jbprince@...> writes:
              >> Greetings!
              >>
              >> Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
              >>
              >> a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
              >> b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
              >> c) They still managed to hit stuff.
              >>
              >> Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
              >> beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well
              >(at least not
              >> intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would
              >be to
              >> easy. It's ME who's messing up.
              >>
              >> Will
              >> * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented
              >;o) *
              >>
              >
              >As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
              >banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
              >other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
              >amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
              >about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
              >unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
              >as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
              >problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in arrow
              >selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
              >
              >I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
              >only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
              >being taken by the gentlman above.
              >
              >Conchobhar
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
              >
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              >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
              >
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              >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
              >
              >

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            • Elizabeth Pidgeon
              Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell degridation . Carl
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
                Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly
                stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell
                degridation .
                Carl
                Message text written by INTERNET:SCA-Archery@egroups.com
                >
                Greetings

                One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
                shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not
                much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.

                James Cunningham

                I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a
                dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according
                to
                standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
                this?<
              • James W. Pratt Jr.
                snip (such as a balance scale to make sure all ... snip Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the Viking )...what I have not found is fletchers or
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
                  snip
                  (such as a balance scale to make sure all
                  > shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                  snip

                  Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I have
                  not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to prove it.
                  Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a conjecture.
                  But I have already asked how much good is that.

                  spip
                  The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always more
                  sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                  snip

                  I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any modern
                  fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a big
                  part of making the best arrows.

                  James Cunningham
                • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                  To All, Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine. Ask any master arrowmaker even in
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
                    To All,
                    Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in
                    medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine.
                    Ask any master arrowmaker even in our society about this. I shoot
                    heavier than average bows,70# plus, and although I am
                    compulsive about weighing, spine and grain weight, I am constantly
                    reminded by great fletchers such as Master Li Kung Lo and others that
                    the close matching of spines at that weight and speed is NOT AS critical
                    as it is on lighter weight bows and arrows, you just need to make sure
                    you are not shooting under-spined arrows, or, DISASTER! On lighter
                    weight bows (under 60#, by medieval standards) it is very critical. I
                    don't know why this is, perhaps there are experts out there that can
                    explain it better, but it is shown in practice.
                    So, even though you are using a nifty little self bow that you've
                    made that draws at 40# at 28" with self nocked arrows with tied on
                    fletching, you cannot compare what you are doing to the "classic"
                    British war bow which drew at between 80# for those weaker gents up to
                    170# for the "knuckle scrapers".
                    All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                    geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                    the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                    their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                    paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter weight
                    target bows is very different, much more critical of weight difference,
                    a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                    archer error on release.
                    One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the Mary
                    Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they were
                    estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                    arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in at
                    over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                    120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                    This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                    -Geoffrei


                    http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                  • Karl Sandhoff
                    Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or 15th century
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
                      Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach
                      there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or
                      15th century from the archives of the "Fletcher's Guild" (I don't recall
                      the exact Guild name) in London which clearly showed a balance scale on
                      the workbench next to a pile of materials and several completed arrows.
                      While I know that the jewlers and goldsmiths had similar scales with
                      precise wieghts to measure against, I did not see any such weights in the
                      image and did not wish to imply facts from evidence not in view. In
                      addition, my experience with engine rebuilding had me balancing engine
                      parts against each other to achieve balance though the exact weight was
                      not important. We used a similar balance system. Thus, my deduction of
                      one possible conclusion. Since I no longer am near the University, I
                      will have to wait on trying to find the book again until I get back with
                      time to spend (I do still have library priveledges).
                      In service to the dream,
                      Carolus von Eulenhorst

                      On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 12:08:44 -0500 "James W. Pratt Jr."
                      <cunning@...> writes:
                      >snip
                      >(such as a balance scale to make sure all
                      >> shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                      >snip
                      >
                      >Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I
                      >have
                      >not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to
                      >prove it.
                      >Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a
                      >conjecture.
                      >But I have already asked how much good is that.
                      >
                      >spip
                      > The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always
                      >more
                      >sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                      >snip
                      >
                      >I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any
                      >modern
                      >fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a
                      >big
                      >part of making the best arrows.
                      >
                      >James Cunningham
                      >
                      >
                      >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                      >
                      >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                      >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                      >
                      >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                      >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                      >
                      >

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                    • Karl Sandhoff
                      Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery spor of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and Crecy. If one
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
                        Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery
                        spor" of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and
                        Crecy. If one were to examine the equipment of war vs. the equipment of
                        sport (including hunting) one will find the sport equipment much finer,
                        more precise, and delicate (though by no means fragile) than that for
                        war. We often seem to be arguing to cross purposes as even the sport is
                        still in period, albeit late period.
                        In service to the dream,
                        Carolus von Eulenhorst

                        On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:44:18 -0500 (EST) jrosswebb1@... writes:
                        >To All,
                        > snip<
                        > All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                        >geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                        >the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                        >their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                        >paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter
                        >weight
                        >target bows is very different, much more critical of weight
                        >difference,
                        >a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                        >archer error on release.
                        > One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the
                        >Mary
                        >Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they
                        >were
                        >estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                        >arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in
                        >at
                        >over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                        >120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                        > This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                        >-Geoffrei
                        >
                        >
                        >http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                        >
                        >
                        >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                        >
                        >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                        >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                        >
                        >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                        >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                        >
                        >

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