Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [SCA-Archery] Spine Scale

Expand Messages
  • Jean-Paul Blaquiere
    ... Which is why we use the modern tools like fletching jigs. If i had the time I daresay that I could be silly/insane enough to go and find a tree and cut
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
      > On Dec 01, Block, Alan W scratched in indelible ink :

      > The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a
      > fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time and
      > effort than I can afford to get it correct.
      >
      Which is why we use the 'modern' tools like fletching jigs. If i had the
      time I daresay that I could be silly/insane enough to go and find a tree and
      cut out a nice set of arrows, and probably a bow too. But no yet ;) A
      comment passed to my by one of the armourers in our group was that if the
      Vikings had had grinders in their time, they would have used them!
      I use the tools available to me to make my job of making my toys easier. I am
      working on the joy of 'making my toys' but that will be more beneficial to me
      when I have more time :)

      /Jp...
      --
      Jean-Paul Blaquière || Avatar of Computational
      japester@... || Thaumaturgy
      Words are fingers that point at the moon. Once you see the moon, you no
      longer need the fingers. -- someone, somewhere
    • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
      Several people, out of a desire to help others improve their shooting and the quality of their arrows, have suggested that they aquire a spine scale and a
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
        Several people, out of a desire to help others improve their shooting
        and the quality of their arrows, have suggested that they aquire a spine
        scale and a grain scale. One good gentle even posted an excellent site
        with plans for making one inexpensively. With some of the responses,
        you'd think we were asking you to drink "Drano". So please, if the idea
        offends your sensibilities, please ignore all of the helpful advice, and
        go about your business as usual.
        We really don't know a great deal about medieval period archery
        and its craft. Ashams book "Toxophillus" offers some insight, but was
        written well after the great age of the longbow and is the writing of an
        academics tutor, not a great military archer. It is a wonderful book and
        a must have for any student of archery.but it is not the final word or
        by any means the complete story. We all seem to quote from it as if it
        is the word of God. It is just another source.
        90% of what we do in the SCA is not
        period archery or re-creation or even re-enactment, it's modern
        traditional style archery in costume. There are some that are fiendishly
        attempting to be accurate, and others that buy a fiberglass bow and want
        to step to the line with their Simms arrows and play the game, and "it's
        all good", all are welcomed and encouraged.
        That's the way it should be. We will not allow much of the real period
        tackle because it has been deemed unsafe, we've learned over the
        centuries. And we've learned more about physics and how to measure what
        we do, and I'd venture to say that in many cases we are probably a lot
        more accurate archers than our predecessors,IMHO.
        Play the game anyway you want, I love to play at the romance, make
        my own self-bows, self nocked arrows with tied on fletches and
        re-inforced wrapping on the nocks, but I also have and use a moisture
        meter, a spine scale, a grain scale, a cresting lathe, fletching jigs,
        feather burner, oh, and yeah, the internet too.
        -Geoffrei


        http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
      • James W. Pratt Jr.
        I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to Drachenwald? If
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
          I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I
          have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to
          Drachenwald? If and when you do have them shoot the Winter Challenge.

          James Cunningham


          But this
          > might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
          > ;o)
          >
          > Will
        • Guy Taylor
          ... This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he does not always use it.
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
            --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

            > It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
            > set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
            > against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
            > This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps
            > "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because
            > you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as
            > possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
            > "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.
            >
            > Conchobhar

            This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own
            primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he
            does not always use it. Another simply bends the shafts he makes in
            his hands and grades them by feel. Feathers are put on without
            benefit of a fletching jig but I have seen Tom use his toes, not sure
            if that is period or not but it works for him. He will shape
            feathers either with scissors of a burning coal. Pyrographic
            decoration is done with the sun and a magnifying glass. Finished
            arrows are further graded by actual shooting into the two classes of
            the good ones and the ones that get the "Wonder if I can hit that
            from here?" shots. The latter are frequently unrecovererable in the
            bushes.

            Taillear
          • James W. Pratt Jr.
            I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer, the only
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
              I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice
              Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer,
              the only time I would need more than two arrows would be durring a war. For
              the Hunters out there how many of you have taken more than two shots a deer
              befor you retrieved arrows?

              Intuitively, it makes sense.
            • Guy Taylor
              ... arrow ... Different persons get different things from their SCA participation. This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
                --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

                > As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
                > banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
                > other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
                > amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
                > about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
                > unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
                > as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
                > problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in
                arrow
                > selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
                >
                > I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
                > only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
                > being taken by the gentlman above.
                >
                > Conchobhar

                Different persons get different things from their SCA participation.
                This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
                traditional archer first, the SCA is a game I play on the weekends to
                be with some good people and to get another chance to shoot my
                equipment in a friendly atmosphere.
                Not to disparage anyone else's SCA experience but whenever I see
                someone sign their letters with "In service to the Dream." I am
                minded of the tagline that talks about this being what I do on the
                weekends, the Dream consists of a blond, a red head, a gallon of
                chocolate syrup... etc. :-)
              • Karl Sandhoff
                The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the intricacies of arrow making, they just didn t have the tools and had to use other
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 2, 2000
                  The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the
                  intricacies of arrow making, they just didn't have the tools and had to
                  use other techniques (such as a balance scale to make sure all
                  shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other). Drying oils
                  such as linseed seal as well as varnish. The big difference was that
                  they didn't do this for war (never fall in love with your ammunition) and
                  sport didn't get written about as much. Their form of sport was somewhat
                  different as well. So while a perfectly matched set might be produced as
                  a gift to a high ranking noble, they really didn't need them as much as
                  they used them differently. The technologies and tools used in the shops
                  to make gear were always more sophisticated and precise than the gear
                  made and used in then field.

                  Njall Hagerson wrote:
                  While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
                  anyone
                  else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
                  making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
                  tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
                  Practice
                  for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
                  they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                  grouping method.

                  Reply -
                  And this is the crux of the issue because no matter how well the arrows
                  were matched, the was no quantifiable way to match them to a bow. In
                  fact, wood bows change their dynamics through their lives as they begin
                  to take a set, lose elasticity, etc. Thus the arrows perfectly matched
                  to it have to change.

                  In service to the dream,
                  Carolus von Eulenhorst

                  On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:15:57 -0800 "Prince, John"
                  <jbprince@...> writes:
                  >> Greetings!
                  >>
                  >> Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
                  >>
                  >> a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
                  >> b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
                  >> c) They still managed to hit stuff.
                  >>
                  >> Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
                  >> beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well
                  >(at least not
                  >> intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would
                  >be to
                  >> easy. It's ME who's messing up.
                  >>
                  >> Will
                  >> * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented
                  >;o) *
                  >>
                  >
                  >As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
                  >banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
                  >other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
                  >amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
                  >about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
                  >unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
                  >as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
                  >problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in arrow
                  >selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
                  >
                  >I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
                  >only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
                  >being taken by the gentlman above.
                  >
                  >Conchobhar
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                  >
                  >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                  >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                  >
                  >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                  >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                  >
                  >

                  ________________________________________________________________
                  GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
                  Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
                  Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
                  http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
                • Elizabeth Pidgeon
                  Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell degridation . Carl
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
                    Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly
                    stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell
                    degridation .
                    Carl
                    Message text written by INTERNET:SCA-Archery@egroups.com
                    >
                    Greetings

                    One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
                    shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not
                    much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.

                    James Cunningham

                    I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a
                    dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according
                    to
                    standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
                    this?<
                  • James W. Pratt Jr.
                    snip (such as a balance scale to make sure all ... snip Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the Viking )...what I have not found is fletchers or
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
                      snip
                      (such as a balance scale to make sure all
                      > shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                      snip

                      Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I have
                      not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to prove it.
                      Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a conjecture.
                      But I have already asked how much good is that.

                      spip
                      The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always more
                      sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                      snip

                      I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any modern
                      fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a big
                      part of making the best arrows.

                      James Cunningham
                    • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                      To All, Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine. Ask any master arrowmaker even in
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
                        To All,
                        Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in
                        medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine.
                        Ask any master arrowmaker even in our society about this. I shoot
                        heavier than average bows,70# plus, and although I am
                        compulsive about weighing, spine and grain weight, I am constantly
                        reminded by great fletchers such as Master Li Kung Lo and others that
                        the close matching of spines at that weight and speed is NOT AS critical
                        as it is on lighter weight bows and arrows, you just need to make sure
                        you are not shooting under-spined arrows, or, DISASTER! On lighter
                        weight bows (under 60#, by medieval standards) it is very critical. I
                        don't know why this is, perhaps there are experts out there that can
                        explain it better, but it is shown in practice.
                        So, even though you are using a nifty little self bow that you've
                        made that draws at 40# at 28" with self nocked arrows with tied on
                        fletching, you cannot compare what you are doing to the "classic"
                        British war bow which drew at between 80# for those weaker gents up to
                        170# for the "knuckle scrapers".
                        All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                        geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                        the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                        their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                        paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter weight
                        target bows is very different, much more critical of weight difference,
                        a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                        archer error on release.
                        One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the Mary
                        Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they were
                        estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                        arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in at
                        over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                        120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                        This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                        -Geoffrei


                        http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                      • Karl Sandhoff
                        Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or 15th century
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
                          Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach
                          there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or
                          15th century from the archives of the "Fletcher's Guild" (I don't recall
                          the exact Guild name) in London which clearly showed a balance scale on
                          the workbench next to a pile of materials and several completed arrows.
                          While I know that the jewlers and goldsmiths had similar scales with
                          precise wieghts to measure against, I did not see any such weights in the
                          image and did not wish to imply facts from evidence not in view. In
                          addition, my experience with engine rebuilding had me balancing engine
                          parts against each other to achieve balance though the exact weight was
                          not important. We used a similar balance system. Thus, my deduction of
                          one possible conclusion. Since I no longer am near the University, I
                          will have to wait on trying to find the book again until I get back with
                          time to spend (I do still have library priveledges).
                          In service to the dream,
                          Carolus von Eulenhorst

                          On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 12:08:44 -0500 "James W. Pratt Jr."
                          <cunning@...> writes:
                          >snip
                          >(such as a balance scale to make sure all
                          >> shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                          >snip
                          >
                          >Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I
                          >have
                          >not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to
                          >prove it.
                          >Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a
                          >conjecture.
                          >But I have already asked how much good is that.
                          >
                          >spip
                          > The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always
                          >more
                          >sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                          >snip
                          >
                          >I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any
                          >modern
                          >fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a
                          >big
                          >part of making the best arrows.
                          >
                          >James Cunningham
                          >
                          >
                          >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                          >
                          >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                          >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                          >
                          >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                          >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                          >
                          >

                          ________________________________________________________________
                          GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
                          Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
                          Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
                          http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
                        • Karl Sandhoff
                          Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery spor of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and Crecy. If one
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
                            Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery
                            spor" of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and
                            Crecy. If one were to examine the equipment of war vs. the equipment of
                            sport (including hunting) one will find the sport equipment much finer,
                            more precise, and delicate (though by no means fragile) than that for
                            war. We often seem to be arguing to cross purposes as even the sport is
                            still in period, albeit late period.
                            In service to the dream,
                            Carolus von Eulenhorst

                            On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:44:18 -0500 (EST) jrosswebb1@... writes:
                            >To All,
                            > snip<
                            > All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                            >geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                            >the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                            >their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                            >paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter
                            >weight
                            >target bows is very different, much more critical of weight
                            >difference,
                            >a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                            >archer error on release.
                            > One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the
                            >Mary
                            >Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they
                            >were
                            >estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                            >arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in
                            >at
                            >over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                            >120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                            > This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                            >-Geoffrei
                            >
                            >
                            >http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                            >
                            >
                            >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                            >
                            >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                            >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                            >
                            >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                            >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                            >
                            >

                            ________________________________________________________________
                            GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
                            Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
                            Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
                            http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.