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Re: [SCA-Archery] Spine Scale

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  • Prince, John
    ... It would be an interesting project wouldn t it! You could have one set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ( scientific ) means up against a set of
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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      > I hope I didn't imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were
      > stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It would
      > seem to me that the test would not be a matter of proficiency, but rather
      > research. No it seems to me that Roger Asham recorded almost every other
      > aspect of becoming a good archer in period. From bow selection to choosing
      > the proper teacher. Does anyone recall him writing about arrow matching in
      > hi book?
      >
      > Njall Olaf Hagerson (who admits to reading it so long ago, that the memory
      > of it fails)
      >

      It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
      set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
      against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
      This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps
      "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because
      you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as
      possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
      "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.

      Conchobhar
    • Jean-Paul Blaquiere
      ... Which is why we use the modern tools like fletching jigs. If i had the time I daresay that I could be silly/insane enough to go and find a tree and cut
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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        > On Dec 01, Block, Alan W scratched in indelible ink :

        > The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a
        > fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time and
        > effort than I can afford to get it correct.
        >
        Which is why we use the 'modern' tools like fletching jigs. If i had the
        time I daresay that I could be silly/insane enough to go and find a tree and
        cut out a nice set of arrows, and probably a bow too. But no yet ;) A
        comment passed to my by one of the armourers in our group was that if the
        Vikings had had grinders in their time, they would have used them!
        I use the tools available to me to make my job of making my toys easier. I am
        working on the joy of 'making my toys' but that will be more beneficial to me
        when I have more time :)

        /Jp...
        --
        Jean-Paul Blaquière || Avatar of Computational
        japester@... || Thaumaturgy
        Words are fingers that point at the moon. Once you see the moon, you no
        longer need the fingers. -- someone, somewhere
      • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
        Several people, out of a desire to help others improve their shooting and the quality of their arrows, have suggested that they aquire a spine scale and a
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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          Several people, out of a desire to help others improve their shooting
          and the quality of their arrows, have suggested that they aquire a spine
          scale and a grain scale. One good gentle even posted an excellent site
          with plans for making one inexpensively. With some of the responses,
          you'd think we were asking you to drink "Drano". So please, if the idea
          offends your sensibilities, please ignore all of the helpful advice, and
          go about your business as usual.
          We really don't know a great deal about medieval period archery
          and its craft. Ashams book "Toxophillus" offers some insight, but was
          written well after the great age of the longbow and is the writing of an
          academics tutor, not a great military archer. It is a wonderful book and
          a must have for any student of archery.but it is not the final word or
          by any means the complete story. We all seem to quote from it as if it
          is the word of God. It is just another source.
          90% of what we do in the SCA is not
          period archery or re-creation or even re-enactment, it's modern
          traditional style archery in costume. There are some that are fiendishly
          attempting to be accurate, and others that buy a fiberglass bow and want
          to step to the line with their Simms arrows and play the game, and "it's
          all good", all are welcomed and encouraged.
          That's the way it should be. We will not allow much of the real period
          tackle because it has been deemed unsafe, we've learned over the
          centuries. And we've learned more about physics and how to measure what
          we do, and I'd venture to say that in many cases we are probably a lot
          more accurate archers than our predecessors,IMHO.
          Play the game anyway you want, I love to play at the romance, make
          my own self-bows, self nocked arrows with tied on fletches and
          re-inforced wrapping on the nocks, but I also have and use a moisture
          meter, a spine scale, a grain scale, a cresting lathe, fletching jigs,
          feather burner, oh, and yeah, the internet too.
          -Geoffrei


          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
        • James W. Pratt Jr.
          I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to Drachenwald? If
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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            I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I
            have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to
            Drachenwald? If and when you do have them shoot the Winter Challenge.

            James Cunningham


            But this
            > might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
            > ;o)
            >
            > Will
          • Guy Taylor
            ... This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he does not always use it.
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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              --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

              > It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
              > set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
              > against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
              > This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps
              > "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because
              > you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as
              > possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
              > "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.
              >
              > Conchobhar

              This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own
              primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he
              does not always use it. Another simply bends the shafts he makes in
              his hands and grades them by feel. Feathers are put on without
              benefit of a fletching jig but I have seen Tom use his toes, not sure
              if that is period or not but it works for him. He will shape
              feathers either with scissors of a burning coal. Pyrographic
              decoration is done with the sun and a magnifying glass. Finished
              arrows are further graded by actual shooting into the two classes of
              the good ones and the ones that get the "Wonder if I can hit that
              from here?" shots. The latter are frequently unrecovererable in the
              bushes.

              Taillear
            • James W. Pratt Jr.
              I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer, the only
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice
                Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer,
                the only time I would need more than two arrows would be durring a war. For
                the Hunters out there how many of you have taken more than two shots a deer
                befor you retrieved arrows?

                Intuitively, it makes sense.
              • Guy Taylor
                ... arrow ... Different persons get different things from their SCA participation. This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                  --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

                  > As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
                  > banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
                  > other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
                  > amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
                  > about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
                  > unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
                  > as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
                  > problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in
                  arrow
                  > selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
                  >
                  > I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
                  > only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
                  > being taken by the gentlman above.
                  >
                  > Conchobhar

                  Different persons get different things from their SCA participation.
                  This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
                  traditional archer first, the SCA is a game I play on the weekends to
                  be with some good people and to get another chance to shoot my
                  equipment in a friendly atmosphere.
                  Not to disparage anyone else's SCA experience but whenever I see
                  someone sign their letters with "In service to the Dream." I am
                  minded of the tagline that talks about this being what I do on the
                  weekends, the Dream consists of a blond, a red head, a gallon of
                  chocolate syrup... etc. :-)
                • Karl Sandhoff
                  The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the intricacies of arrow making, they just didn t have the tools and had to use other
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 2, 2000
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                    The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the
                    intricacies of arrow making, they just didn't have the tools and had to
                    use other techniques (such as a balance scale to make sure all
                    shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other). Drying oils
                    such as linseed seal as well as varnish. The big difference was that
                    they didn't do this for war (never fall in love with your ammunition) and
                    sport didn't get written about as much. Their form of sport was somewhat
                    different as well. So while a perfectly matched set might be produced as
                    a gift to a high ranking noble, they really didn't need them as much as
                    they used them differently. The technologies and tools used in the shops
                    to make gear were always more sophisticated and precise than the gear
                    made and used in then field.

                    Njall Hagerson wrote:
                    While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
                    anyone
                    else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
                    making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
                    tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
                    Practice
                    for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
                    they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                    grouping method.

                    Reply -
                    And this is the crux of the issue because no matter how well the arrows
                    were matched, the was no quantifiable way to match them to a bow. In
                    fact, wood bows change their dynamics through their lives as they begin
                    to take a set, lose elasticity, etc. Thus the arrows perfectly matched
                    to it have to change.

                    In service to the dream,
                    Carolus von Eulenhorst

                    On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:15:57 -0800 "Prince, John"
                    <jbprince@...> writes:
                    >> Greetings!
                    >>
                    >> Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
                    >>
                    >> a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
                    >> b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
                    >> c) They still managed to hit stuff.
                    >>
                    >> Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
                    >> beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well
                    >(at least not
                    >> intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would
                    >be to
                    >> easy. It's ME who's messing up.
                    >>
                    >> Will
                    >> * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented
                    >;o) *
                    >>
                    >
                    >As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
                    >banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
                    >other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
                    >amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
                    >about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
                    >unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
                    >as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
                    >problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in arrow
                    >selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
                    >
                    >I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
                    >only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
                    >being taken by the gentlman above.
                    >
                    >Conchobhar
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                    >
                    >

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                  • Elizabeth Pidgeon
                    Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell degridation . Carl
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                      Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly
                      stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell
                      degridation .
                      Carl
                      Message text written by INTERNET:SCA-Archery@egroups.com
                      >
                      Greetings

                      One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
                      shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not
                      much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.

                      James Cunningham

                      I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a
                      dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according
                      to
                      standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
                      this?<
                    • James W. Pratt Jr.
                      snip (such as a balance scale to make sure all ... snip Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the Viking )...what I have not found is fletchers or
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                        snip
                        (such as a balance scale to make sure all
                        > shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                        snip

                        Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I have
                        not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to prove it.
                        Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a conjecture.
                        But I have already asked how much good is that.

                        spip
                        The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always more
                        sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                        snip

                        I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any modern
                        fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a big
                        part of making the best arrows.

                        James Cunningham
                      • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                        To All, Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine. Ask any master arrowmaker even in
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                          To All,
                          Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in
                          medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine.
                          Ask any master arrowmaker even in our society about this. I shoot
                          heavier than average bows,70# plus, and although I am
                          compulsive about weighing, spine and grain weight, I am constantly
                          reminded by great fletchers such as Master Li Kung Lo and others that
                          the close matching of spines at that weight and speed is NOT AS critical
                          as it is on lighter weight bows and arrows, you just need to make sure
                          you are not shooting under-spined arrows, or, DISASTER! On lighter
                          weight bows (under 60#, by medieval standards) it is very critical. I
                          don't know why this is, perhaps there are experts out there that can
                          explain it better, but it is shown in practice.
                          So, even though you are using a nifty little self bow that you've
                          made that draws at 40# at 28" with self nocked arrows with tied on
                          fletching, you cannot compare what you are doing to the "classic"
                          British war bow which drew at between 80# for those weaker gents up to
                          170# for the "knuckle scrapers".
                          All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                          geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                          the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                          their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                          paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter weight
                          target bows is very different, much more critical of weight difference,
                          a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                          archer error on release.
                          One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the Mary
                          Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they were
                          estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                          arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in at
                          over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                          120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                          This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                          -Geoffrei


                          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                        • Karl Sandhoff
                          Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or 15th century
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                            Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach
                            there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or
                            15th century from the archives of the "Fletcher's Guild" (I don't recall
                            the exact Guild name) in London which clearly showed a balance scale on
                            the workbench next to a pile of materials and several completed arrows.
                            While I know that the jewlers and goldsmiths had similar scales with
                            precise wieghts to measure against, I did not see any such weights in the
                            image and did not wish to imply facts from evidence not in view. In
                            addition, my experience with engine rebuilding had me balancing engine
                            parts against each other to achieve balance though the exact weight was
                            not important. We used a similar balance system. Thus, my deduction of
                            one possible conclusion. Since I no longer am near the University, I
                            will have to wait on trying to find the book again until I get back with
                            time to spend (I do still have library priveledges).
                            In service to the dream,
                            Carolus von Eulenhorst

                            On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 12:08:44 -0500 "James W. Pratt Jr."
                            <cunning@...> writes:
                            >snip
                            >(such as a balance scale to make sure all
                            >> shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                            >snip
                            >
                            >Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I
                            >have
                            >not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to
                            >prove it.
                            >Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a
                            >conjecture.
                            >But I have already asked how much good is that.
                            >
                            >spip
                            > The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always
                            >more
                            >sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                            >snip
                            >
                            >I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any
                            >modern
                            >fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a
                            >big
                            >part of making the best arrows.
                            >
                            >James Cunningham
                            >
                            >
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                            >
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                            >
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                            >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                            >
                            >

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                          • Karl Sandhoff
                            Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery spor of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and Crecy. If one
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                              Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery
                              spor" of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and
                              Crecy. If one were to examine the equipment of war vs. the equipment of
                              sport (including hunting) one will find the sport equipment much finer,
                              more precise, and delicate (though by no means fragile) than that for
                              war. We often seem to be arguing to cross purposes as even the sport is
                              still in period, albeit late period.
                              In service to the dream,
                              Carolus von Eulenhorst

                              On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:44:18 -0500 (EST) jrosswebb1@... writes:
                              >To All,
                              > snip<
                              > All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                              >geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                              >the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                              >their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                              >paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter
                              >weight
                              >target bows is very different, much more critical of weight
                              >difference,
                              >a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                              >archer error on release.
                              > One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the
                              >Mary
                              >Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they
                              >were
                              >estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                              >arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in
                              >at
                              >over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                              >120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                              > This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                              >-Geoffrei
                              >
                              >
                              >http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                              >
                              >
                              >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                              >
                              >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                              >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                              >
                              >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                              >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                              >
                              >

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