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Re: [SCA-Archery] Spine Scale

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  • James W. Pratt Jr.
    Greetings One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not much
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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      Greetings

      One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
      shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not
      much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.

      James Cunningham

      I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a
      dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according to
      standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
      this?
      >
      > -- Fritz
      > --
      > Carl West
    • cgelszus@gmx.net
      Greetings! Easy answer: I don t care! ;o) a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish. b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters. c)
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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        Greetings!


        Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)

        a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
        b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
        c) They still managed to hit stuff.

        Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
        beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at least not
        intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would be to
        easy. It's ME who's messing up.

        Will
        * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented ;o) *

        > Greetings
        >
        > One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
        > shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is
        > not
        > much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.
        >
        > James Cunningham
        >
        > I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find
        > in a
        > dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched
        > according to
        > standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
        > this?
        > >
        > > -- Fritz
        > > --
        > > Carl West
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
        > http://www.MedievalMart.com/
        >
        > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
        > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
        >
        >

        --
        Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net
      • Prince, John
        ... As a new member in the archery community I ve been following the banter about spine weights, perfectly matched arrows, and all the other items about the
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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          > Greetings!
          >
          > Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
          >
          > a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
          > b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
          > c) They still managed to hit stuff.
          >
          > Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
          > beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at least not
          > intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would be to
          > easy. It's ME who's messing up.
          >
          > Will
          > * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented ;o) *
          >

          As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
          banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
          other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
          amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
          about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
          unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
          as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
          problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in arrow
          selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.

          I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
          only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
          being taken by the gentlman above.

          Conchobhar
        • Scott Jaqua
          Conchobhar and others, While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don t matter to anyone else but myself), I can see some justification for the
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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            Conchobhar and others,

            While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to anyone
            else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
            making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
            tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows. Practice
            for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
            they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
            grouping method.

            Njall Olaf Hagerson

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Prince, John
            > Greetings!
            >
            > a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
            > b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
            > c) They still managed to hit stuff.
            >
            > Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
            > beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at
            least not
            > intentionally ... ;o) ).
            As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
            banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
            other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
            amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
            about for sometime. (snip)
            I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
            only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
            being taken by the gentlman above.

            Conchobhar
          • cgelszus@gmx.net
            Greetings! ... and I m absolutely fine with that. In the TBB chapter on handmade arrows James (?) Massey states that he s grouping his shafts by flexing them
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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              Greetings!

              ... and I'm absolutely fine with that. In the TBB chapter on handmade
              arrows James (?) Massey states that he's grouping his shafts by flexing them and
              going for the 'feel'. I'm sure a medieval fletcher would have had similar
              skills just based on the amount of experience he must have had with the
              material. I'm just reluctant to replace that with modern technology and still
              consider the result to be rlated to medieval reenactment.

              I also have to admit that sometimes I am enticed to cheat. An arrow rest
              for example would make shooting much easier. And an undocumented selfbow
              profile might provide better cast than the ELB design. So far, I've reminded
              myself of my (personal) reason to start this type of archery - which was to try
              to get as close to the medieval equivalent as reasonably possible. But this
              might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
              ;o)

              Will

              > Conchobhar and others,
              >
              > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
              > anyone
              > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
              > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
              > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
              > Practice
              > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
              > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
              > grouping method.
              >
              > Njall Olaf Hagerson
              >

              --
              Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net
            • Prince, John
              ... Good M Lord, My missive was not met as a critism, only an observation. It would be interesting to determine if your conjecture holds true. I believe that
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                > Conchobhar and others,
                >
                > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to anyone
                > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
                > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
                > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows. Practice
                > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
                > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                > grouping method.
                >
                > Njall Olaf Hagerson
                >

                Good M'Lord,

                My missive was not met as a critism, only an observation. It would be
                interesting to determine if your conjecture holds true. I believe
                that it would take someone who is proficient in the art form to
                draw any conclusions however. Intuitively, it makes sense.

                Conchobhar
              • Block, Alan W
                The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time and effort
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                  The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a
                  fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time and
                  effort than I can afford to get it correct.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: cgelszus@... [mailto:cgelszus@...]
                  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 2:56 PM
                  To: SCA-Archery@egroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Spine Scale


                  Greetings!

                  ... and I'm absolutely fine with that. In the TBB chapter on handmade
                  arrows James (?) Massey states that he's grouping his shafts by flexing them
                  and
                  going for the 'feel'. I'm sure a medieval fletcher would have had similar
                  skills just based on the amount of experience he must have had with the
                  material. I'm just reluctant to replace that with modern technology and
                  still
                  consider the result to be rlated to medieval reenactment.

                  I also have to admit that sometimes I am enticed to cheat. An arrow rest
                  for example would make shooting much easier. And an undocumented selfbow
                  profile might provide better cast than the ELB design. So far, I've reminded
                  myself of my (personal) reason to start this type of archery - which was to
                  try
                  to get as close to the medieval equivalent as reasonably possible. But this
                  might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
                  ;o)

                  Will

                  > Conchobhar and others,
                  >
                  > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
                  > anyone
                  > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
                  > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
                  > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
                  > Practice
                  > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
                  > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                  > grouping method.
                  >
                  > Njall Olaf Hagerson
                  >

                  --
                  Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net


                  Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                  http://www.MedievalMart.com/

                  Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                  [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                • Scott Jaqua
                  I hope I didn t imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It would seem to me
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                    I hope I didn't imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were
                    stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It would
                    seem to me that the test would not be a matter of proficiency, but rather
                    research. No it seems to me that Roger Asham recorded almost every other
                    aspect of becoming a good archer in period. From bow selection to choosing
                    the proper teacher. Does anyone recall him writing about arrow matching in
                    hi book?

                    Njall Olaf Hagerson (who admits to reading it so long ago, that the memory
                    of it fails)

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Prince, John
                    >I would hazard a guess that
                    > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                    > grouping method.
                    >
                    > Njall Olaf Hagerson
                    >

                    Good M'Lord,

                    My missive was not met as a critism, only an observation. It would be
                    interesting to determine if your conjecture holds true. I believe
                    that it would take someone who is proficient in the art form to
                    draw any conclusions however. Intuitively, it makes sense.

                    Conchobhar
                  • Prince, John
                    ... It would be an interesting project wouldn t it! You could have one set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ( scientific ) means up against a set of
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                      > I hope I didn't imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were
                      > stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It would
                      > seem to me that the test would not be a matter of proficiency, but rather
                      > research. No it seems to me that Roger Asham recorded almost every other
                      > aspect of becoming a good archer in period. From bow selection to choosing
                      > the proper teacher. Does anyone recall him writing about arrow matching in
                      > hi book?
                      >
                      > Njall Olaf Hagerson (who admits to reading it so long ago, that the memory
                      > of it fails)
                      >

                      It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
                      set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
                      against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
                      This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps
                      "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because
                      you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as
                      possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
                      "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.

                      Conchobhar
                    • Jean-Paul Blaquiere
                      ... Which is why we use the modern tools like fletching jigs. If i had the time I daresay that I could be silly/insane enough to go and find a tree and cut
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                        > On Dec 01, Block, Alan W scratched in indelible ink :

                        > The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a
                        > fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time and
                        > effort than I can afford to get it correct.
                        >
                        Which is why we use the 'modern' tools like fletching jigs. If i had the
                        time I daresay that I could be silly/insane enough to go and find a tree and
                        cut out a nice set of arrows, and probably a bow too. But no yet ;) A
                        comment passed to my by one of the armourers in our group was that if the
                        Vikings had had grinders in their time, they would have used them!
                        I use the tools available to me to make my job of making my toys easier. I am
                        working on the joy of 'making my toys' but that will be more beneficial to me
                        when I have more time :)

                        /Jp...
                        --
                        Jean-Paul Blaquière || Avatar of Computational
                        japester@... || Thaumaturgy
                        Words are fingers that point at the moon. Once you see the moon, you no
                        longer need the fingers. -- someone, somewhere
                      • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                        Several people, out of a desire to help others improve their shooting and the quality of their arrows, have suggested that they aquire a spine scale and a
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                          Several people, out of a desire to help others improve their shooting
                          and the quality of their arrows, have suggested that they aquire a spine
                          scale and a grain scale. One good gentle even posted an excellent site
                          with plans for making one inexpensively. With some of the responses,
                          you'd think we were asking you to drink "Drano". So please, if the idea
                          offends your sensibilities, please ignore all of the helpful advice, and
                          go about your business as usual.
                          We really don't know a great deal about medieval period archery
                          and its craft. Ashams book "Toxophillus" offers some insight, but was
                          written well after the great age of the longbow and is the writing of an
                          academics tutor, not a great military archer. It is a wonderful book and
                          a must have for any student of archery.but it is not the final word or
                          by any means the complete story. We all seem to quote from it as if it
                          is the word of God. It is just another source.
                          90% of what we do in the SCA is not
                          period archery or re-creation or even re-enactment, it's modern
                          traditional style archery in costume. There are some that are fiendishly
                          attempting to be accurate, and others that buy a fiberglass bow and want
                          to step to the line with their Simms arrows and play the game, and "it's
                          all good", all are welcomed and encouraged.
                          That's the way it should be. We will not allow much of the real period
                          tackle because it has been deemed unsafe, we've learned over the
                          centuries. And we've learned more about physics and how to measure what
                          we do, and I'd venture to say that in many cases we are probably a lot
                          more accurate archers than our predecessors,IMHO.
                          Play the game anyway you want, I love to play at the romance, make
                          my own self-bows, self nocked arrows with tied on fletches and
                          re-inforced wrapping on the nocks, but I also have and use a moisture
                          meter, a spine scale, a grain scale, a cresting lathe, fletching jigs,
                          feather burner, oh, and yeah, the internet too.
                          -Geoffrei


                          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                        • James W. Pratt Jr.
                          I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to Drachenwald? If
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                            I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I
                            have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to
                            Drachenwald? If and when you do have them shoot the Winter Challenge.

                            James Cunningham


                            But this
                            > might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
                            > ;o)
                            >
                            > Will
                          • Guy Taylor
                            ... This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he does not always use it.
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                              --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

                              > It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
                              > set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
                              > against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
                              > This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps
                              > "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because
                              > you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as
                              > possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
                              > "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.
                              >
                              > Conchobhar

                              This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own
                              primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he
                              does not always use it. Another simply bends the shafts he makes in
                              his hands and grades them by feel. Feathers are put on without
                              benefit of a fletching jig but I have seen Tom use his toes, not sure
                              if that is period or not but it works for him. He will shape
                              feathers either with scissors of a burning coal. Pyrographic
                              decoration is done with the sun and a magnifying glass. Finished
                              arrows are further graded by actual shooting into the two classes of
                              the good ones and the ones that get the "Wonder if I can hit that
                              from here?" shots. The latter are frequently unrecovererable in the
                              bushes.

                              Taillear
                            • James W. Pratt Jr.
                              I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer, the only
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                                I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice
                                Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer,
                                the only time I would need more than two arrows would be durring a war. For
                                the Hunters out there how many of you have taken more than two shots a deer
                                befor you retrieved arrows?

                                Intuitively, it makes sense.
                              • Guy Taylor
                                ... arrow ... Different persons get different things from their SCA participation. This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                                  --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

                                  > As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
                                  > banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
                                  > other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
                                  > amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
                                  > about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
                                  > unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
                                  > as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
                                  > problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in
                                  arrow
                                  > selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
                                  >
                                  > I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
                                  > only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
                                  > being taken by the gentlman above.
                                  >
                                  > Conchobhar

                                  Different persons get different things from their SCA participation.
                                  This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
                                  traditional archer first, the SCA is a game I play on the weekends to
                                  be with some good people and to get another chance to shoot my
                                  equipment in a friendly atmosphere.
                                  Not to disparage anyone else's SCA experience but whenever I see
                                  someone sign their letters with "In service to the Dream." I am
                                  minded of the tagline that talks about this being what I do on the
                                  weekends, the Dream consists of a blond, a red head, a gallon of
                                  chocolate syrup... etc. :-)
                                • Karl Sandhoff
                                  The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the intricacies of arrow making, they just didn t have the tools and had to use other
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 2, 2000
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                                    The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the
                                    intricacies of arrow making, they just didn't have the tools and had to
                                    use other techniques (such as a balance scale to make sure all
                                    shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other). Drying oils
                                    such as linseed seal as well as varnish. The big difference was that
                                    they didn't do this for war (never fall in love with your ammunition) and
                                    sport didn't get written about as much. Their form of sport was somewhat
                                    different as well. So while a perfectly matched set might be produced as
                                    a gift to a high ranking noble, they really didn't need them as much as
                                    they used them differently. The technologies and tools used in the shops
                                    to make gear were always more sophisticated and precise than the gear
                                    made and used in then field.

                                    Njall Hagerson wrote:
                                    While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
                                    anyone
                                    else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
                                    making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
                                    tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
                                    Practice
                                    for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
                                    they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                                    grouping method.

                                    Reply -
                                    And this is the crux of the issue because no matter how well the arrows
                                    were matched, the was no quantifiable way to match them to a bow. In
                                    fact, wood bows change their dynamics through their lives as they begin
                                    to take a set, lose elasticity, etc. Thus the arrows perfectly matched
                                    to it have to change.

                                    In service to the dream,
                                    Carolus von Eulenhorst

                                    On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:15:57 -0800 "Prince, John"
                                    <jbprince@...> writes:
                                    >> Greetings!
                                    >>
                                    >> Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
                                    >>
                                    >> a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
                                    >> b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
                                    >> c) They still managed to hit stuff.
                                    >>
                                    >> Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
                                    >> beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well
                                    >(at least not
                                    >> intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would
                                    >be to
                                    >> easy. It's ME who's messing up.
                                    >>
                                    >> Will
                                    >> * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented
                                    >;o) *
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
                                    >banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
                                    >other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
                                    >amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
                                    >about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
                                    >unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
                                    >as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
                                    >problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in arrow
                                    >selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
                                    >
                                    >I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
                                    >only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
                                    >being taken by the gentlman above.
                                    >
                                    >Conchobhar
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                                    >
                                    >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                                    >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                                    >
                                    >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                                    >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                                    >
                                    >

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                                  • Elizabeth Pidgeon
                                    Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell degridation . Carl
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                                      Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly
                                      stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell
                                      degridation .
                                      Carl
                                      Message text written by INTERNET:SCA-Archery@egroups.com
                                      >
                                      Greetings

                                      One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
                                      shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not
                                      much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.

                                      James Cunningham

                                      I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a
                                      dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according
                                      to
                                      standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
                                      this?<
                                    • James W. Pratt Jr.
                                      snip (such as a balance scale to make sure all ... snip Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the Viking )...what I have not found is fletchers or
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                                        snip
                                        (such as a balance scale to make sure all
                                        > shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                                        snip

                                        Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I have
                                        not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to prove it.
                                        Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a conjecture.
                                        But I have already asked how much good is that.

                                        spip
                                        The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always more
                                        sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                                        snip

                                        I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any modern
                                        fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a big
                                        part of making the best arrows.

                                        James Cunningham
                                      • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                                        To All, Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine. Ask any master arrowmaker even in
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                                          To All,
                                          Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in
                                          medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine.
                                          Ask any master arrowmaker even in our society about this. I shoot
                                          heavier than average bows,70# plus, and although I am
                                          compulsive about weighing, spine and grain weight, I am constantly
                                          reminded by great fletchers such as Master Li Kung Lo and others that
                                          the close matching of spines at that weight and speed is NOT AS critical
                                          as it is on lighter weight bows and arrows, you just need to make sure
                                          you are not shooting under-spined arrows, or, DISASTER! On lighter
                                          weight bows (under 60#, by medieval standards) it is very critical. I
                                          don't know why this is, perhaps there are experts out there that can
                                          explain it better, but it is shown in practice.
                                          So, even though you are using a nifty little self bow that you've
                                          made that draws at 40# at 28" with self nocked arrows with tied on
                                          fletching, you cannot compare what you are doing to the "classic"
                                          British war bow which drew at between 80# for those weaker gents up to
                                          170# for the "knuckle scrapers".
                                          All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                                          geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                                          the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                                          their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                                          paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter weight
                                          target bows is very different, much more critical of weight difference,
                                          a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                                          archer error on release.
                                          One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the Mary
                                          Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they were
                                          estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                                          arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in at
                                          over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                                          120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                                          This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                                          -Geoffrei


                                          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                                        • Karl Sandhoff
                                          Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or 15th century
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                                            Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach
                                            there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or
                                            15th century from the archives of the "Fletcher's Guild" (I don't recall
                                            the exact Guild name) in London which clearly showed a balance scale on
                                            the workbench next to a pile of materials and several completed arrows.
                                            While I know that the jewlers and goldsmiths had similar scales with
                                            precise wieghts to measure against, I did not see any such weights in the
                                            image and did not wish to imply facts from evidence not in view. In
                                            addition, my experience with engine rebuilding had me balancing engine
                                            parts against each other to achieve balance though the exact weight was
                                            not important. We used a similar balance system. Thus, my deduction of
                                            one possible conclusion. Since I no longer am near the University, I
                                            will have to wait on trying to find the book again until I get back with
                                            time to spend (I do still have library priveledges).
                                            In service to the dream,
                                            Carolus von Eulenhorst

                                            On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 12:08:44 -0500 "James W. Pratt Jr."
                                            <cunning@...> writes:
                                            >snip
                                            >(such as a balance scale to make sure all
                                            >> shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                                            >snip
                                            >
                                            >Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I
                                            >have
                                            >not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to
                                            >prove it.
                                            >Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a
                                            >conjecture.
                                            >But I have already asked how much good is that.
                                            >
                                            >spip
                                            > The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always
                                            >more
                                            >sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                                            >snip
                                            >
                                            >I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any
                                            >modern
                                            >fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a
                                            >big
                                            >part of making the best arrows.
                                            >
                                            >James Cunningham
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                                            >
                                            >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                                            >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                                            >
                                            >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                                            >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                                            >
                                            >

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                                          • Karl Sandhoff
                                            Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery spor of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and Crecy. If one
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                                              Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery
                                              spor" of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and
                                              Crecy. If one were to examine the equipment of war vs. the equipment of
                                              sport (including hunting) one will find the sport equipment much finer,
                                              more precise, and delicate (though by no means fragile) than that for
                                              war. We often seem to be arguing to cross purposes as even the sport is
                                              still in period, albeit late period.
                                              In service to the dream,
                                              Carolus von Eulenhorst

                                              On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:44:18 -0500 (EST) jrosswebb1@... writes:
                                              >To All,
                                              > snip<
                                              > All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                                              >geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                                              >the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                                              >their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                                              >paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter
                                              >weight
                                              >target bows is very different, much more critical of weight
                                              >difference,
                                              >a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                                              >archer error on release.
                                              > One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the
                                              >Mary
                                              >Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they
                                              >were
                                              >estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                                              >arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in
                                              >at
                                              >over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                                              >120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                                              > This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                                              >-Geoffrei
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                                              >
                                              >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                                              >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                                              >
                                              >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                                              >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                                              >
                                              >

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