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Re: [SCA-Archery] Spine Scale

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  • Carl West at home
    ... ... ... There seems to be a confusion here between: Standard Spine -- the standardized measure of the stiffness of a stick used to get an
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 30, 2000
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      Jeff Elder wrote:
      >...
      > I am still stumped though, how any one gauges the spine of a shaft!

      > > If you evaluate a 26 inch segment of a 30 inch long piece of wood, it is
      > > statistically likely that your measurement is fairly good.
      > >
      > > However, "statistically likely" and reality are frequently at odds.
      > >
      > > <shrug>

      <snip>

      > > > "Spine is determined by measuring the amount of deflection (in
      > thousandths
      > > > of an inch) that a shaft assumes when loaded with a 2-pound weight
      > midway
      > > > between two supports located 26 inches apart. This deflection is
      > converted
      > > > to pounds by dividing 26 by the deflection. This measuring standard was
      > > > established during the first quarter of the twentieth century

      <snip>

      > > > > ...(Spine should be measured
      > > > from
      > > > >one inch from each end of the shaft with the tip and knock attached.)

      There seems to be a confusion here between:

      Standard Spine -- the standardized measure of the stiffness of a stick used to get an approximate functional match between bows and arrows. The resulting number is meaningful to all archers, but only so useful as a rule.

      and

      (let's call it) Full Arrow Spine -- the measure of the flexibility of the entire shaft of a particular arrow made to fly well out of a particular archer's bow. Whatever number might result is meaningless to anyone but the archer and his fletcher, but it is THE number they should care about most.

      If you're sorting out your shipment of 5000 shafts, use the standard 26" 2# spine test. Then use that sorting as a guide to find candidates for full arrow testing to fit a particular archer and his bow.

      All that said, I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according to standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test this?

      -- Fritz
      --
      Carl West
      mailto:eisen@...
      http://people.ne.mediaone.net/eisen

      Experience Real-Time Full-Motion Hi-res 3D with Surround Sound! Step Outside.
    • James W. Pratt Jr.
      Greetings One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not much
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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        Greetings

        One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
        shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not
        much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.

        James Cunningham

        I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a
        dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according to
        standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
        this?
        >
        > -- Fritz
        > --
        > Carl West
      • cgelszus@gmx.net
        Greetings! Easy answer: I don t care! ;o) a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish. b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters. c)
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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          Greetings!


          Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)

          a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
          b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
          c) They still managed to hit stuff.

          Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
          beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at least not
          intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would be to
          easy. It's ME who's messing up.

          Will
          * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented ;o) *

          > Greetings
          >
          > One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
          > shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is
          > not
          > much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.
          >
          > James Cunningham
          >
          > I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find
          > in a
          > dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched
          > according to
          > standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
          > this?
          > >
          > > -- Fritz
          > > --
          > > Carl West
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
          > http://www.MedievalMart.com/
          >
          > Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
          > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
          >
          >

          --
          Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net
        • Prince, John
          ... As a new member in the archery community I ve been following the banter about spine weights, perfectly matched arrows, and all the other items about the
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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            > Greetings!
            >
            > Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
            >
            > a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
            > b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
            > c) They still managed to hit stuff.
            >
            > Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
            > beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at least not
            > intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would be to
            > easy. It's ME who's messing up.
            >
            > Will
            > * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented ;o) *
            >

            As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
            banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
            other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
            amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
            about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
            unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
            as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
            problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in arrow
            selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.

            I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
            only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
            being taken by the gentlman above.

            Conchobhar
          • Scott Jaqua
            Conchobhar and others, While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don t matter to anyone else but myself), I can see some justification for the
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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              Conchobhar and others,

              While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to anyone
              else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
              making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
              tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows. Practice
              for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
              they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
              grouping method.

              Njall Olaf Hagerson

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Prince, John
              > Greetings!
              >
              > a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
              > b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
              > c) They still managed to hit stuff.
              >
              > Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
              > beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well (at
              least not
              > intentionally ... ;o) ).
              As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
              banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
              other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
              amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
              about for sometime. (snip)
              I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
              only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
              being taken by the gentlman above.

              Conchobhar
            • cgelszus@gmx.net
              Greetings! ... and I m absolutely fine with that. In the TBB chapter on handmade arrows James (?) Massey states that he s grouping his shafts by flexing them
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                Greetings!

                ... and I'm absolutely fine with that. In the TBB chapter on handmade
                arrows James (?) Massey states that he's grouping his shafts by flexing them and
                going for the 'feel'. I'm sure a medieval fletcher would have had similar
                skills just based on the amount of experience he must have had with the
                material. I'm just reluctant to replace that with modern technology and still
                consider the result to be rlated to medieval reenactment.

                I also have to admit that sometimes I am enticed to cheat. An arrow rest
                for example would make shooting much easier. And an undocumented selfbow
                profile might provide better cast than the ELB design. So far, I've reminded
                myself of my (personal) reason to start this type of archery - which was to try
                to get as close to the medieval equivalent as reasonably possible. But this
                might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
                ;o)

                Will

                > Conchobhar and others,
                >
                > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
                > anyone
                > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
                > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
                > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
                > Practice
                > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
                > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                > grouping method.
                >
                > Njall Olaf Hagerson
                >

                --
                Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net
              • Prince, John
                ... Good M Lord, My missive was not met as a critism, only an observation. It would be interesting to determine if your conjecture holds true. I believe that
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                  > Conchobhar and others,
                  >
                  > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to anyone
                  > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
                  > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
                  > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows. Practice
                  > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
                  > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                  > grouping method.
                  >
                  > Njall Olaf Hagerson
                  >

                  Good M'Lord,

                  My missive was not met as a critism, only an observation. It would be
                  interesting to determine if your conjecture holds true. I believe
                  that it would take someone who is proficient in the art form to
                  draw any conclusions however. Intuitively, it makes sense.

                  Conchobhar
                • Block, Alan W
                  The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time and effort
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                    The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a
                    fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time and
                    effort than I can afford to get it correct.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: cgelszus@... [mailto:cgelszus@...]
                    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 2:56 PM
                    To: SCA-Archery@egroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Spine Scale


                    Greetings!

                    ... and I'm absolutely fine with that. In the TBB chapter on handmade
                    arrows James (?) Massey states that he's grouping his shafts by flexing them
                    and
                    going for the 'feel'. I'm sure a medieval fletcher would have had similar
                    skills just based on the amount of experience he must have had with the
                    material. I'm just reluctant to replace that with modern technology and
                    still
                    consider the result to be rlated to medieval reenactment.

                    I also have to admit that sometimes I am enticed to cheat. An arrow rest
                    for example would make shooting much easier. And an undocumented selfbow
                    profile might provide better cast than the ELB design. So far, I've reminded
                    myself of my (personal) reason to start this type of archery - which was to
                    try
                    to get as close to the medieval equivalent as reasonably possible. But this
                    might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
                    ;o)

                    Will

                    > Conchobhar and others,
                    >
                    > While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
                    > anyone
                    > else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
                    > making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
                    > tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
                    > Practice
                    > for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
                    > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                    > grouping method.
                    >
                    > Njall Olaf Hagerson
                    >

                    --
                    Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net


                    Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                    http://www.MedievalMart.com/

                    Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                    [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                  • Scott Jaqua
                    I hope I didn t imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It would seem to me
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                      I hope I didn't imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were
                      stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It would
                      seem to me that the test would not be a matter of proficiency, but rather
                      research. No it seems to me that Roger Asham recorded almost every other
                      aspect of becoming a good archer in period. From bow selection to choosing
                      the proper teacher. Does anyone recall him writing about arrow matching in
                      hi book?

                      Njall Olaf Hagerson (who admits to reading it so long ago, that the memory
                      of it fails)

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Prince, John
                      >I would hazard a guess that
                      > they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                      > grouping method.
                      >
                      > Njall Olaf Hagerson
                      >

                      Good M'Lord,

                      My missive was not met as a critism, only an observation. It would be
                      interesting to determine if your conjecture holds true. I believe
                      that it would take someone who is proficient in the art form to
                      draw any conclusions however. Intuitively, it makes sense.

                      Conchobhar
                    • Prince, John
                      ... It would be an interesting project wouldn t it! You could have one set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ( scientific ) means up against a set of
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                        > I hope I didn't imply that you giving criticism. It seem to me you were
                        > stating an observation. Which I in turn, presented another side to. It would
                        > seem to me that the test would not be a matter of proficiency, but rather
                        > research. No it seems to me that Roger Asham recorded almost every other
                        > aspect of becoming a good archer in period. From bow selection to choosing
                        > the proper teacher. Does anyone recall him writing about arrow matching in
                        > hi book?
                        >
                        > Njall Olaf Hagerson (who admits to reading it so long ago, that the memory
                        > of it fails)
                        >

                        It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
                        set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
                        against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
                        This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps
                        "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because
                        you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as
                        possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
                        "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.

                        Conchobhar
                      • Jean-Paul Blaquiere
                        ... Which is why we use the modern tools like fletching jigs. If i had the time I daresay that I could be silly/insane enough to go and find a tree and cut
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                          > On Dec 01, Block, Alan W scratched in indelible ink :

                          > The medieval fletcher did this 10-16 hours a day. He probably developed a
                          > fine sense for gauging the stiffness of shafts. This is a lot more time and
                          > effort than I can afford to get it correct.
                          >
                          Which is why we use the 'modern' tools like fletching jigs. If i had the
                          time I daresay that I could be silly/insane enough to go and find a tree and
                          cut out a nice set of arrows, and probably a bow too. But no yet ;) A
                          comment passed to my by one of the armourers in our group was that if the
                          Vikings had had grinders in their time, they would have used them!
                          I use the tools available to me to make my job of making my toys easier. I am
                          working on the joy of 'making my toys' but that will be more beneficial to me
                          when I have more time :)

                          /Jp...
                          --
                          Jean-Paul Blaquière || Avatar of Computational
                          japester@... || Thaumaturgy
                          Words are fingers that point at the moon. Once you see the moon, you no
                          longer need the fingers. -- someone, somewhere
                        • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                          Several people, out of a desire to help others improve their shooting and the quality of their arrows, have suggested that they aquire a spine scale and a
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                            Several people, out of a desire to help others improve their shooting
                            and the quality of their arrows, have suggested that they aquire a spine
                            scale and a grain scale. One good gentle even posted an excellent site
                            with plans for making one inexpensively. With some of the responses,
                            you'd think we were asking you to drink "Drano". So please, if the idea
                            offends your sensibilities, please ignore all of the helpful advice, and
                            go about your business as usual.
                            We really don't know a great deal about medieval period archery
                            and its craft. Ashams book "Toxophillus" offers some insight, but was
                            written well after the great age of the longbow and is the writing of an
                            academics tutor, not a great military archer. It is a wonderful book and
                            a must have for any student of archery.but it is not the final word or
                            by any means the complete story. We all seem to quote from it as if it
                            is the word of God. It is just another source.
                            90% of what we do in the SCA is not
                            period archery or re-creation or even re-enactment, it's modern
                            traditional style archery in costume. There are some that are fiendishly
                            attempting to be accurate, and others that buy a fiberglass bow and want
                            to step to the line with their Simms arrows and play the game, and "it's
                            all good", all are welcomed and encouraged.
                            That's the way it should be. We will not allow much of the real period
                            tackle because it has been deemed unsafe, we've learned over the
                            centuries. And we've learned more about physics and how to measure what
                            we do, and I'd venture to say that in many cases we are probably a lot
                            more accurate archers than our predecessors,IMHO.
                            Play the game anyway you want, I love to play at the romance, make
                            my own self-bows, self nocked arrows with tied on fletches and
                            re-inforced wrapping on the nocks, but I also have and use a moisture
                            meter, a spine scale, a grain scale, a cresting lathe, fletching jigs,
                            feather burner, oh, and yeah, the internet too.
                            -Geoffrei


                            http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                          • James W. Pratt Jr.
                            I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to Drachenwald? If
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                              I know what you shoot and you do have a decent score better than mine. If I
                              have followed the thread correctly you are planning to go back to
                              Drachenwald? If and when you do have them shoot the Winter Challenge.

                              James Cunningham


                              But this
                              > might not continue if I don't get a decent Winter Challenge score soon ...
                              > ;o)
                              >
                              > Will
                            • Guy Taylor
                              ... This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he does not always use it.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                                --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

                                > It would be an interesting project wouldn't it! You could have one
                                > set of arrows matched by whatever mechanical ("scientific") means up
                                > against a set of arrows determined by the archer using your method.
                                > This is where I think "proficiency" would play apart. Perhaps
                                > "experience" is a better choice of a word. I say this only because
                                > you would want any variation in grouping to be reduced as much as
                                > possible due to performance on the part of the archer. A sort of
                                > "science" vs "instinctive" approach in arrow selection.
                                >
                                > Conchobhar

                                This brings to mind my friends that makes and shoot their own
                                primitive tackle. One of them has a spine tester that he made but he
                                does not always use it. Another simply bends the shafts he makes in
                                his hands and grades them by feel. Feathers are put on without
                                benefit of a fletching jig but I have seen Tom use his toes, not sure
                                if that is period or not but it works for him. He will shape
                                feathers either with scissors of a burning coal. Pyrographic
                                decoration is done with the sun and a magnifying glass. Finished
                                arrows are further graded by actual shooting into the two classes of
                                the good ones and the ones that get the "Wonder if I can hit that
                                from here?" shots. The latter are frequently unrecovererable in the
                                bushes.

                                Taillear
                              • James W. Pratt Jr.
                                I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer, the only
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                                  I do not think they worried about groupings as much as we do. Even the Ice
                                  Man had only one or two arrows ready to shoot. If I were a Welsh archer,
                                  the only time I would need more than two arrows would be durring a war. For
                                  the Hunters out there how many of you have taken more than two shots a deer
                                  befor you retrieved arrows?

                                  Intuitively, it makes sense.
                                • Guy Taylor
                                  ... arrow ... Different persons get different things from their SCA participation. This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 1, 2000
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                                    --- In SCA-Archery@egroups.com, "Prince, John" <jbprince@p...> wrote:

                                    > As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
                                    > banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
                                    > other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
                                    > amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
                                    > about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
                                    > unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
                                    > as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
                                    > problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in
                                    arrow
                                    > selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
                                    >
                                    > I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
                                    > only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
                                    > being taken by the gentlman above.
                                    >
                                    > Conchobhar

                                    Different persons get different things from their SCA participation.
                                    This occurs in every aspect of the SCA experience. For me, I am a
                                    traditional archer first, the SCA is a game I play on the weekends to
                                    be with some good people and to get another chance to shoot my
                                    equipment in a friendly atmosphere.
                                    Not to disparage anyone else's SCA experience but whenever I see
                                    someone sign their letters with "In service to the Dream." I am
                                    minded of the tagline that talks about this being what I do on the
                                    weekends, the Dream consists of a blond, a red head, a gallon of
                                    chocolate syrup... etc. :-)
                                  • Karl Sandhoff
                                    The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the intricacies of arrow making, they just didn t have the tools and had to use other
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 2, 2000
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                                      The Medieval and Renaissance archery communities know full well about the
                                      intricacies of arrow making, they just didn't have the tools and had to
                                      use other techniques (such as a balance scale to make sure all
                                      shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other). Drying oils
                                      such as linseed seal as well as varnish. The big difference was that
                                      they didn't do this for war (never fall in love with your ammunition) and
                                      sport didn't get written about as much. Their form of sport was somewhat
                                      different as well. So while a perfectly matched set might be produced as
                                      a gift to a high ranking noble, they really didn't need them as much as
                                      they used them differently. The technologies and tools used in the shops
                                      to make gear were always more sophisticated and precise than the gear
                                      made and used in then field.

                                      Njall Hagerson wrote:
                                      While not taking sides on such an issue (my opinions don't matter to
                                      anyone
                                      else but myself), I can see some justification for the science of arrow
                                      making. While the medieval fletcher may not have had the same sorts of
                                      tools, you can bet the archer had a care for well matched arrows.
                                      Practice
                                      for a many a medieval archer, was their job. I would hazard a guess that
                                      they may have approached matching arrows by the shoot and record the
                                      grouping method.

                                      Reply -
                                      And this is the crux of the issue because no matter how well the arrows
                                      were matched, the was no quantifiable way to match them to a bow. In
                                      fact, wood bows change their dynamics through their lives as they begin
                                      to take a set, lose elasticity, etc. Thus the arrows perfectly matched
                                      to it have to change.

                                      In service to the dream,
                                      Carolus von Eulenhorst

                                      On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:15:57 -0800 "Prince, John"
                                      <jbprince@...> writes:
                                      >> Greetings!
                                      >>
                                      >> Easy answer: I don't care! ;o)
                                      >>
                                      >> a) In medieval times they did not have PU varnish.
                                      >> b) They also did not have moisture-, spine- or other meters.
                                      >> c) They still managed to hit stuff.
                                      >>
                                      >> Now, trying to recreate _medieval_ archery I'm using linseed oil and
                                      >> beeswax for shaft protection. I do _not_ hit the target very well
                                      >(at least not
                                      >> intentionally ... ;o) ). Sorry, but blaming moisture content would
                                      >be to
                                      >> easy. It's ME who's messing up.
                                      >>
                                      >> Will
                                      >> * Who also does not use a fletching jig until it can be documented
                                      >;o) *
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >As a new member in the archery community I've been following the
                                      >banter about spine weights, "perfectly" matched arrows, and all the
                                      >other items about the "scientific" approach to archery with much
                                      >amusement. M'Lord brings forward something that I've been wondering
                                      >about for sometime. While SCA archery turns it's back on that
                                      >unmentionable type of bow that is so prevalent in the hunting world
                                      >as being "not medieval/traditional", as a group it apprently has no
                                      >problem using all the gizmos and gadgets, bells and whistles in arrow
                                      >selection/construction. A bit schizophrenic I think.
                                      >
                                      >I must admit that I know next to nothing about the sport, having
                                      >only been at it for about 8 months. However, I do like the approach
                                      >being taken by the gentlman above.
                                      >
                                      >Conchobhar
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                    • Elizabeth Pidgeon
                                      Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell degridation . Carl
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                                        Stored bare shafts will gain a little spine over the years if properly
                                        stored indoors , and working arrows will loose a little due to cell
                                        degridation .
                                        Carl
                                        Message text written by INTERNET:SCA-Archery@egroups.com
                                        >
                                        Greetings

                                        One more worm for the can. If you are working with un-sealed arrow
                                        shafts... how MUCH does mosture content effect spin? I know that it is not
                                        much fun on arrows, bolts, bow, targets, and archers.

                                        James Cunningham

                                        I really don't know how much variation in full arrow spine you'll find in a
                                        dozen 32" shafts that are perfectly (well, OK, closely) matched according
                                        to
                                        standard spine. Could someone with an adjustable-span spine tester test
                                        this?<
                                      • James W. Pratt Jr.
                                        snip (such as a balance scale to make sure all ... snip Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the Viking )...what I have not found is fletchers or
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                                          snip
                                          (such as a balance scale to make sure all
                                          > shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                                          snip

                                          Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I have
                                          not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to prove it.
                                          Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a conjecture.
                                          But I have already asked how much good is that.

                                          spip
                                          The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always more
                                          sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                                          snip

                                          I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any modern
                                          fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a big
                                          part of making the best arrows.

                                          James Cunningham
                                        • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                                          To All, Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine. Ask any master arrowmaker even in
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                                            To All,
                                            Very heavy draw weight bows, such as the bows that were shot in
                                            medieval times are LESS critical of exacting spine.
                                            Ask any master arrowmaker even in our society about this. I shoot
                                            heavier than average bows,70# plus, and although I am
                                            compulsive about weighing, spine and grain weight, I am constantly
                                            reminded by great fletchers such as Master Li Kung Lo and others that
                                            the close matching of spines at that weight and speed is NOT AS critical
                                            as it is on lighter weight bows and arrows, you just need to make sure
                                            you are not shooting under-spined arrows, or, DISASTER! On lighter
                                            weight bows (under 60#, by medieval standards) it is very critical. I
                                            don't know why this is, perhaps there are experts out there that can
                                            explain it better, but it is shown in practice.
                                            So, even though you are using a nifty little self bow that you've
                                            made that draws at 40# at 28" with self nocked arrows with tied on
                                            fletching, you cannot compare what you are doing to the "classic"
                                            British war bow which drew at between 80# for those weaker gents up to
                                            170# for the "knuckle scrapers".
                                            All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                                            geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                                            the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                                            their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                                            paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter weight
                                            target bows is very different, much more critical of weight difference,
                                            a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                                            archer error on release.
                                            One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the Mary
                                            Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they were
                                            estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                                            arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in at
                                            over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                                            120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                                            This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                                            -Geoffrei


                                            http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                                          • Karl Sandhoff
                                            Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or 15th century
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                                              Many years ago in the library at California State University, Long Beach
                                              there was a book with an illustration purported to come from the 14th or
                                              15th century from the archives of the "Fletcher's Guild" (I don't recall
                                              the exact Guild name) in London which clearly showed a balance scale on
                                              the workbench next to a pile of materials and several completed arrows.
                                              While I know that the jewlers and goldsmiths had similar scales with
                                              precise wieghts to measure against, I did not see any such weights in the
                                              image and did not wish to imply facts from evidence not in view. In
                                              addition, my experience with engine rebuilding had me balancing engine
                                              parts against each other to achieve balance though the exact weight was
                                              not important. We used a similar balance system. Thus, my deduction of
                                              one possible conclusion. Since I no longer am near the University, I
                                              will have to wait on trying to find the book again until I get back with
                                              time to spend (I do still have library priveledges).
                                              In service to the dream,
                                              Carolus von Eulenhorst

                                              On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 12:08:44 -0500 "James W. Pratt Jr."
                                              <cunning@...> writes:
                                              >snip
                                              >(such as a balance scale to make sure all
                                              >> shafts/points/feathers matched in weight to each other).
                                              >snip
                                              >
                                              >Wrong.... they had scales to weight gold (see the "Viking")...what I
                                              >have
                                              >not found is fletchers or bowyers using scales on arrows or how to
                                              >prove it.
                                              >Maybe if we found arrow heads/a file/and a scale we could make a
                                              >conjecture.
                                              >But I have already asked how much good is that.
                                              >
                                              >spip
                                              > The technologies and tools used in the shops to make gear were always
                                              >more
                                              >sophisticated and precise than the gear made and used in then field.
                                              >snip
                                              >
                                              >I cannot see a poacher getting his arrows from a fletcher but as any
                                              >modern
                                              >fletcher knows, even with modern tools, experience and practice are a
                                              >big
                                              >part of making the best arrows.
                                              >
                                              >James Cunningham
                                              >
                                              >
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                                              >
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                                              >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                                              >
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                                              >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                                              >
                                              >

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                                            • Karl Sandhoff
                                              Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery spor of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and Crecy. If one
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Dec 3, 2000
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                                                Indeed, the archery we practice has much more in common with the archery
                                                spor" of Ascham and Princess Elizabeth than the war of Agincourt and
                                                Crecy. If one were to examine the equipment of war vs. the equipment of
                                                sport (including hunting) one will find the sport equipment much finer,
                                                more precise, and delicate (though by no means fragile) than that for
                                                war. We often seem to be arguing to cross purposes as even the sport is
                                                still in period, albeit late period.
                                                In service to the dream,
                                                Carolus von Eulenhorst

                                                On Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:44:18 -0500 (EST) jrosswebb1@... writes:
                                                >To All,
                                                > snip<
                                                > All of what I've written so far about spine and grain weight is
                                                >geared toward the wonderful sport" that we practice in the SCA. Where
                                                >the majority of people are not drawing seige bows, they are working on
                                                >their form and trying to get their arrows as close to center of the
                                                >paper target as possible. The physics and dynamics of our lighter
                                                >weight
                                                >target bows is very different, much more critical of weight
                                                >difference,
                                                >a lot more responsive, and due to increased speed, more critical of
                                                >archer error on release.
                                                > One previous writer is correct about the arrows found in the
                                                >Mary
                                                >Rose(source: Hardy "Longbow", Hugh Soar, "Instinctive Archer") they
                                                >were
                                                >estimated at being well over 1000 grains each. With a 300plus grain
                                                >arrowhead, that means the shafts with fletching would have weighed in
                                                >at
                                                >over 700plus grains themselves. These would have been shot out of a
                                                >120plus pound bow delivering the ordinance at over 220fps. DAMN!
                                                > This isn't the type of archery that we do.
                                                >-Geoffrei
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                                                >
                                                >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                                                >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                                                >
                                                >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                                                >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]
                                                >
                                                >

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