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RE: new idea

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  • Russ Leighton
    This sounds great, If I had more time on my hands I would nae mind giving it a go but how does one verify that an archer has made his/her own euipment. There
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 29, 2000
      This sounds great, If I had more time on my hands I would nae mind giving it
      a go but how does one verify that an archer has made his/her own euipment.
      There are sufficient non-SCA trad archery crafstmen (and women) as well as
      documentation to give any archer with a little persistence and cash a
      handmade longbow and the practical knowledge of how it was put together,
      without actually having done any of the work.

      Russ Michael Longshanks

      Somewhere in Antir



      >
      >Hello again all, I was just reading James Cunningham's last entry about
      >handmade arrow shafts and the germ of an idea came to me for next Pennsic.
      >How about an inter-Kingdom novelty competition, where we shoot at only true
      >medieval targets (straw rings, wands, etc.) but the twist is that every
      >archer must have made ALL of the tackle that they are shooting, from
      >scratch. The only exception will be the points(handmade medieval style
      >points may shoot great, but they are often hell on target butts). Bows,
      >arrows, tabs or gloves,bracers and even quivers, all made by the archer.
      >Instead of Middle and allies against East and allies, let's make it where
      >each archer shoots for the glory of his or her Kingdom. We'd need a bunch
      >of nice prizes for different categories and the complexion of the shoot
      >would have to be decided, but I think it would be a fun idea. God willin'
      >and the creek don't rise, I'll be at Pennsic next year for a bit longer
      >than last. Does anyone fancy the idea? Respectfully, with spokeshave in
      >hand, -Geoffrei
      >
      >
      >http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
      >

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    • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
      Well, even more important, is how do you define Made your own bow? and Made your own Arrows? There are big differences in levels of effort. In bows for
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
        Well, even more important, is how do you define 'Made your own bow?' and
        'Made your own Arrows?'

        There are big differences in levels of effort.

        In bows for example, your average 'homemade' longbow is just that, carved
        from a piece of wood. But I'm in the process of making my own crossbow,
        but I sure didn't make the prod. I bought it from Gladius. I'm making my
        own stock, trigger mechanism, binding the prod, etc though.

        You COULD though buy bow irons, trigger mechanisms, etc. And only have to
        make the stock and 'assemble'.

        So do all these variations count as 'made yourself?'

        Same for 'kit bows' on the longbow side. I've seen kits sold that have all
        the pieces of wood basically ready, you do the final work on it.


        As for arrows, is buying the fletches/wood/points and 'assembling' good
        enough? Or should people make their own shafts, pluck their own geese,
        etc. Create their own glue perhaps? :)

        Ok, I'm getting a bit silly. But the question still remains as to where to
        draw the line.

        Siegfried


        At 11:09 PM 11/29/2000 -0800, you wrote:




        >This sounds great, If I had more time on my hands I would nae mind giving it
        >a go but how does one verify that an archer has made his/her own euipment.
        >There are sufficient non-SCA trad archery crafstmen (and women) as well as
        >documentation to give any archer with a little persistence and cash a
        >handmade longbow and the practical knowledge of how it was put together,
        >without actually having done any of the work.
        >
        >Russ Michael Longshanks
        >
        >Somewhere in Antir
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        > >Hello again all, I was just reading James Cunningham's last entry about
        > >handmade arrow shafts and the germ of an idea came to me for next Pennsic.
        > >How about an inter-Kingdom novelty competition, where we shoot at only true
        > >medieval targets (straw rings, wands, etc.) but the twist is that every
        > >archer must have made ALL of the tackle that they are shooting, from
        > >scratch. The only exception will be the points(handmade medieval style
        > >points may shoot great, but they are often hell on target butts). Bows,
        > >arrows, tabs or gloves,bracers and even quivers, all made by the archer.
        > >Instead of Middle and allies against East and allies, let's make it where
        > >each archer shoots for the glory of his or her Kingdom. We'd need a bunch
        > >of nice prizes for different categories and the complexion of the shoot
        > >would have to be decided, but I think it would be a fun idea. God willin'
        > >and the creek don't rise, I'll be at Pennsic next year for a bit longer
        > >than last. Does anyone fancy the idea? Respectfully, with spokeshave in
        > >hand, -Geoffrei
        > >
        > >
        > >http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
        > >
        >
        >_____________________________________________________________________________________
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        >
        >
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        >
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        Baronial Web Minister http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/
      • Elizabeth Pidgeon
        This kind of question comes up often enough , what I always advise when trying to make this kind of judgment call is dose the process fall into what the
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
          This kind of question comes up often enough , what I always advise when
          trying to make this kind of judgment call is dose the process fall into
          what the Medieval Guild would have concidered within its perview .
          In England
          Fletchers assembled arrows
          Arrowsmiths either did all the manufacturing or supervised the process .
          there was a seperate guild of arrow point makers .
          and feathers were gathered by farmers and made avalible to Fletchers by Law
          .
          this is no hard and fast thing but a good rule of thumb .
          Carl
          Message text written by INTERNET:SCA-Archery@egroups.com
          >
          As for arrows, is buying the fletches/wood/points and 'assembling' good
          enough? Or should people make their own shafts, pluck their own geese,
          etc. Create their own glue perhaps? :)

          Ok, I'm getting a bit silly. But the question still remains as to where to

          draw the line.

          Siegfried<
        • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
          To all, Thank you for the input so far. The kind of questions and observations being made are the very thing I wanted. If enough think that this would be a fun
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
            To all,
            Thank you for the input so far. The kind of questions and
            observations being made are the very thing I wanted. If enough think
            that this would be a fun idea,
            then let's dicuss it and decide together on the details. I had
            originally thought of REAL primitive gear, wooden prod crossbows or
            composite(if you're overly ambitious), self bows or composites
            ( again, a whole lot of free time on your hands), shafts carved from
            board stock or from reeds, bamboo,etc.. Gathered feathers from
            geese,turkeys and the like, self nocks, linen strings, the whole nine
            yards. I would stop short of requiring the archers to cut down their own
            trees or making the actual string material, but,I was thinking real
            primitive here. Is that TOO insane or is there interest in this. I'm
            also thinking that this should be a community project, so I'm looking
            for input. For it to work and be fun, we all have to agree on and accept
            the rules. We need to set some boundries.
            -Geoffrei


            http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
          • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
            ... Personally, I think it s a little insane, but go for it if you want. You probably won t have many people entered in it. I personally would be interested
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
              >originally thought of REAL primitive gear, wooden prod crossbows or
              >composite(if you're overly ambitious), self bows or composites
              >( again, a whole lot of free time on your hands), shafts carved from
              >board stock or from reeds, bamboo,etc.. Gathered feathers from
              >geese,turkeys and the like, self nocks, linen strings, the whole nine
              >yards. I would stop short of requiring the archers to cut down their own
              >trees or making the actual string material, but,I was thinking real
              >primitive here. Is that TOO insane or is there interest in this.


              Personally, I think it's a little insane, but go for it if you want. You
              probably won't have many people entered in it. I personally would be
              interested in a 'You made it yourself' competition with that phrase as the
              sole deciding factor. Let everyone in who claims they 'made it themself'.

              Similar to the posting that was given earlier, I agree with the idea that
              there were different people for different tasks. It was a good
              point. Typically a Bowyer just made the bow, perhaps he made the string,
              but he didn't create the linen thread for it ...

              Similar with Crossbows. The XBowyer would have made the stock, perhaps the
              trigger, the string, etc. But a Blacksmith would have made the prod (for
              metal ones), and stirrup, and perhaps trigger mechanism ...

              But like I said, do what you wanna do. But I'm not going to be carving my
              own crossbow prods (Sorry, Steel IS period for me, not wood, 16th century),
              nor carving my own arrow shafts (not enough time) anytime soon!

              Siegfried

              _________________________________________________________________________
              Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust Barony of Highland Foorde
              Baronial Web Minister http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/
            • Carl (checking home mail from work)
              ... Interesting and entertaining would be to have them line themselves up in order made-it-myself-ness. Everyone would have to talk and look at each other s
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
                Siegfried Sebastian Faust wrote:
                > ...I personally would be
                > interested in a 'You made it yourself' competition with that phrase as the
                > sole deciding factor. Let everyone in who claims they 'made it themself'.

                Interesting and entertaining would be to have them line themselves up in
                order made-it-myself-ness. Everyone would have to talk and look at each
                other's gear.

                Fritz
              • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                *grin* That would be fun :) ... _________________________________________________________________________ Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
                  *grin* That would be fun :)

                  At 02:58 PM 11/30/2000 -0500, you wrote:


                  >Siegfried Sebastian Faust wrote:
                  > > ...I personally would be
                  > > interested in a 'You made it yourself' competition with that phrase as the
                  > > sole deciding factor. Let everyone in who claims they 'made it themself'.
                  >
                  >Interesting and entertaining would be to have them line themselves up in
                  >order made-it-myself-ness. Everyone would have to talk and look at each
                  >other's gear.
                  >
                  >Fritz
                  >
                  >
                  >Get medieval at Mad Macsen's
                  >http://www.MedievalMart.com/
                  >
                  >Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
                  >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]

                  _________________________________________________________________________
                  Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust Barony of Highland Foorde
                  Baronial Web Minister http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/
                • Alberic
                  Geoffrei: Not to put down your idea, which I think is lots of fun, but at least in the crossbow division, you ve got some potential problems. I m a crossbow
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
                    Geoffrei:

                    Not to put down your idea, which I think is lots of fun, but at least in
                    the crossbow division, you've got some potential problems.
                    I'm a crossbow maker, and I know nobody who's making crossbows with
                    wooden or composite prods. They're just about all metal of one sort or
                    another. Metal prods are something you *really* don't want to be making
                    yourself unless you really know what you're doing. Two words:
                    catastrophic failure. Closely followed by pain, suffering and lawyers.
                    If this ever gets off the ground, I'd strongly advise you to allow
                    crossbows with professionally made prods, otherwise, there's only two or
                    three guys in the entire SCA who'd be out there. (Most of the rest of
                    us just buy them from Gladius and Iolo. The only person I know of who
                    makes steel prods himself, by hand, is Michel Dabek from Montreal, and
                    he's not interested in shooting.

                    Cheers-
                    Alberic
                  • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                    To Siegfried and all, I m listening to all of your ideas and I am very open. I have another suggestion, how about including this as an addition related to the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
                      To Siegfried and all,
                      I'm listening to all of your ideas and I am very open. I have
                      another suggestion, how about including this as an addition related to
                      the archery masterworks competiton. Let's keep it "period" only and each
                      archery must have made at least some of their tackle and the rest will
                      be period. We could have different awards,ie. best shooter with handmade
                      arrows, handmade bows, thumb rings,etc. as well as the overall winners.
                      I don't want to dominate the list with this, but if any ideas should
                      come to anyone, please feel free to contact me privately. I just
                      presented the idea, it's bound to change a lot before it's done.
                      -Geoffrei


                      http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                    • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                      Alberic, Thank you. Point taken. That is why I m asking for feedback and ideas, I want this to be accessable and fun for all. -Geoffrei
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
                        Alberic,
                        Thank you. Point taken. That is why I'm asking for feedback and
                        ideas, I want this to be accessable and fun for all.
                        -Geoffrei


                        http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                      • Mike O'Toole
                        ... From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] RE: new idea ... own ...
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <jrosswebb1@...>
                          To: <SCA-Archery@egroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:06 AM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] RE: new idea


                          > yards. I would stop short of requiring the archers to cut down their
                          own
                          > trees or making the actual string material, but,I was thinking real

                          But, but I've got about 300 board feet of Western Red Cedar and Hemlock
                          that I cut and had milled. It is curing as we write (only about 18 more
                          months to go!) Not to mention the dozen Yew trees I have my eyes on.
                          Its good to have parents living in the wilds of British Columbia.

                          > primitive here. Is that TOO insane or is there interest in this. I'm
                          > also thinking that this should be a community project, so I'm looking
                          > for input. For it to work and be fun, we all have to agree on and
                          accept
                          > the rules. We need to set some boundries.

                          All I can suggest is that one man's insanity is another man's Laurel.
                          :-)

                          Seriously, I'm not quite sure exactly what type of project you are
                          suggesting we start. I don't know why we would need rules or boundaries
                          when the rush (for me at least) comes from turning (no pun intended) a
                          tree into arrows and in the future trees into bows, finding a farmer
                          with a flax crop and making my own linen thread (yet another future
                          project,) or cooking fish bits into glue.

                          Oh oh, here come those guys in the white coats again.

                          Michael O'Byrne
                          Montengarde
                        • Carl West at home
                          ... More topics: Period technique v. self-made? what trade-offs? Made by a friend? Bartered for? Made by another SCA person? Made without electricity? (by
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
                            jrosswebb1@... wrote:
                            >
                            > ... The kind of questions and
                            > observations being made are the very thing I wanted. If enough think
                            > that this would be a fun idea,
                            > then let's dicuss it and decide together on the details.

                            More topics:
                            Period technique v. self-made? what trade-offs?
                            Made by a friend?
                            Bartered for?
                            Made by another SCA person?
                            Made without electricity? (by whoever)

                            It could be done to showcase the skills of any size group, from the whole SCA to, a household, to an individual.

                            I heard once of a double elimination Arts and Sciences Tourney (yes that's right, 'Tourney') where the entrants were paired up and did 'combat' by debating before the audience the accuracy, quality and documentation for their pieces until one gave the victory to the other. Apparently it was both fun and entertaining for all. We could do something like that, perhaps the audience (including the other contestants) could judge, if the audience can't agree, the contestants shoot head-to-head on some period shoot or other and let the audience choose after that.

                            Anyone could enter, with whatever they've got, the criteria would develop in the process. I don't know if it would filter for exactly what you're looking for, but toward the end you should see some pretty period rigs shooting against each other.

                            I don't think there's a need for prizes per se, I think maybe a good write-up sent to TI and/or the kingdom newsletters would be enough. Word-fame is priceless, easy to carry, every one gets their share and you don't have to find a place to put it when you're not using it. Maybe hire a couple of bard-types?

                            - Fritz

                            --
                            Carl West
                            mailto:eisen@...
                            http://people.ne.mediaone.net/eisen

                            Experience Real-Time Full-Motion Hi-res 3D with Surround Sound! Step Outside.
                          • D Humberson
                            Geoffrei, Great idea, and kudos for your openness to other directions! I especially like encouraging competitions among more specialized archers, such as
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
                              Geoffrei,

                              Great idea, and kudos for your openness to other directions! I especially
                              like encouraging competitions among more specialized archers, such as those
                              shooting non-european styles.

                              A question occured to me, going through this thread - what about period
                              targets from areas outside Europe?

                              Ragnar Ketilsson


                              >From: jrosswebb1@...
                              >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@egroups.com
                              >To: SCA-Archery@egroups.com
                              >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] RE: new idea
                              >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:23:56 -0500 (EST)
                              >
                              >To Siegfried and all,
                              > I'm listening to all of your ideas and I am very open. I have
                              >another suggestion, how about including this as an addition related to
                              >the archery masterworks competiton. Let's keep it "period" only and each
                              >archery must have made at least some of their tackle and the rest will
                              >be period. We could have different awards,ie. best shooter with handmade
                              >arrows, handmade bows, thumb rings,etc. as well as the overall winners.
                              >I don't want to dominate the list with this, but if any ideas should
                              >come to anyone, please feel free to contact me privately. I just
                              >presented the idea, it's bound to change a lot before it's done.
                              >-Geoffrei
                              >
                              >
                              >http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                              >

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                            • James W. Pratt Jr.
                              One point for last, two points next to last all the way to X = number of pople in line. James Cunningham Another way is all shoot the same bow and arrows.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 30, 2000
                                One point for last, two points next to last all the way to X = number of
                                pople in line.

                                James Cunningham

                                Another way is all shoot the same bow and arrows.

                                > Interesting and entertaining would be to have them line themselves up in
                                > order made-it-myself-ness. Everyone would have to talk and look at each
                                > other's gear.
                                >
                                > Fritz
                              • James W. Pratt Jr.
                                Greetings I like the double Elimination with one leg of the double elim being skill(shooting) the other A&S. As they go through the levels the newest bee
                                Message 15 of 18 , Dec 1, 2000
                                  Greetings

                                  I like the double Elimination with one leg of the double elim being
                                  skill(shooting) the other A&S. As they go through the levels the newest
                                  bee gets to choose which he wants to do(to the new bee's advantage). The
                                  real game is to know the strenghts and weakness of your opponent.

                                  James Cunningham

                                  > I heard once of a double elimination Arts and Sciences Tourney (yes that's
                                  right, 'Tourney') where the entrants were paired up and did 'combat' by
                                  debating before the audience the accuracy, quality and documentation for
                                  their pieces until one gave the victory to the other. Apparently it was both
                                  fun and entertaining for all. We could do something like that, perhaps the
                                  audience (including the other contestants) could judge, if the audience
                                  can't agree, the contestants shoot head-to-head on some period shoot or
                                  other and let the audience choose after that.
                                  >
                                • Greg Christensen
                                  Geoffrei, For a preriod shoot at pennsic I think you will get very few that have made all their equipment, you might just want to try to use the IKAC rules
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Dec 11, 2000
                                    Geoffrei,

                                    For a preriod shoot at pennsic I think you will get very few that have made
                                    all their equipment, you might just want to try to use the IKAC rules for
                                    period equipment. You will get a better turnout and everyone knows what
                                    these rules are or can find them on the web.

                                    Just a thought

                                    Gregge the Archer


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                                  • Wade Hutchison
                                    Hmmm- after seeing this post, I had a rant prepared against the idea of shooting at circles, but then I re-read what you wrote, and see that you (of course)
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Dec 11, 2000
                                      Hmmm- after seeing this post, I had a rant prepared against the idea of
                                      shooting at circles, but then I re-read what you wrote, and see that
                                      you (of course) mean to use the _equipment_ rules from the IKAC, not the
                                      targets and distances. Well, that seems like a reasonable suggestion.


                                      I make my own arrows - even venturing into the realm of stripping my own
                                      shafts down from planks and trimming feathers off Turkey wings (I'm looking
                                      for Goose wings this Winter!) I haven't yet delved into bowery, and
                                      probably won't for some time. I'm sure others out there are in the same
                                      boat. Yet many of us shoot "period" style equipment. How about just a
                                      shoot where everything has to be "hand" made - no "commercial" equipment
                                      (r.e. fiberglass) allowed? This is a bit more restrictive than the IKAC
                                      guidelines - maybe as a "strong suggestion?"

                                      We can debate it back and forth, but I don't believe that every medieval
                                      archer was bowyer, fletcher _and_ leatherworker. I'm sure they could repair
                                      their tackle, but that doesn't mean they could make everything from scratch,
                                      so to speak. Are we archers, or guildsmen? Those of us who are archers
                                      want to get out there and shoot things! (other than concentric circles,
                                      that is). Who out there want's to help organize this thing? I'm in
                                      AEthelmearc, only about 4 hours from Pennsic, so I'd be glad to bring some
                                      targets, and round up some marshals for the line. When do we need to get on
                                      the schedule? How long do we want to shoot? Anybody want prizes, or will
                                      this be an informal get-together-and-shoot-for-the-hell-of-it thing?
                                      -----Gille MacDhnouill



                                      At 09:25 AM 12/11/2000, you wrote:
                                      >Geoffrei,
                                      >
                                      >For a preriod shoot at pennsic I think you will get very few that have made
                                      >all their equipment, you might just want to try to use the IKAC rules for
                                      >period equipment. You will get a better turnout and everyone knows what
                                      >these rules are or can find them on the web.
                                      >
                                      >Just a thought
                                      >
                                      >Gregge the Archer
                                    • Bob & Nancy Upson
                                      ... Good question. Personally, I am an archer who also happens to make some of his own periodesque but not period equipment. Unfortunately there is a
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Dec 11, 2000
                                        > We can debate it back and forth, but I don't believe that every
                                        > medieval archer was bowyer, fletcher _and_ leatherworker. I'm sure
                                        > they could repair their tackle, but that doesn't mean they could make
                                        > everything from scratch, so to speak. Are we archers, or guildsmen?

                                        Good question. Personally, I am an archer who also happens to
                                        make some of his own "periodesque" but not "period" equipment.
                                        Unfortunately there is a psuedo-elite faction in the SCA that finds
                                        this unacceptable and hence regards me and those like me as
                                        second class SCAdians....

                                        > Those of us who are archers want to get out there and shoot things!
                                        > (other than concentric circles, that is). Who out there want's to

                                        Got that right -- I'd rather shoot my periodesque equipment in a
                                        period style contest than shoot a period reproduction at a FITA
                                        target any day of the week!

                                        Macsen

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