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Crossbow specific competition

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  • James Koch
    Here is an important matter for discussion by the group. For several years now Iolo and various other crossbow makers and I have been informally discussing
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 20, 1999
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      Here is an important matter for discussion by the group. For several years
      now Iolo and various other crossbow makers and I have been informally
      discussing sponsoring a known world wide crossbow specific non_speed
      shooting competition. I believe we should be able to put up an annual
      prize such as a bow or a golden popinjay or something of that sort. The
      idea is to have the marshallate gather the scores. The person with the
      highest number of points that year will be awarded the prize via their King
      & Queen. The problem of course is coming up with a shoot which will be
      available to anyone with access to a range. A Dresden type or true
      popinjay shoot would be right out for obvious logistical reasons. It would
      have to be shot at a standard SCA type range for instance 30 or 40 yards
      maximum. Ideally it would be shot at a standard target so that it could be
      scored without interrupting other shooters and without adding too much of a
      burden to the marshals. Iolo suggested that a standard target could be
      used with the outer gold ring counting 5 and the inner gold ring counting
      6.
      >
      Here are a number of questions which must be addressed: How would this be
      scored? Would an individual's scores be averaged? Would the marshallate
      be amenable to such a competition? Who would gather and calculate the
      scores?
      >
      You input in this discussion is greatly appreciated. Jim Koch
      James Koch
    • John Edgerton
      ... Would this be open to all crossbows or just period style? If period, what will the definition of period be? If you are using the standard IKAC target, you
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 27, 1999
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        On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, James Koch wrote:

        > From: James Koch <alchem@...>
        >
        > Here is an important matter for discussion by the group. For several years
        > now Iolo and various other crossbow makers and I have been informally
        > discussing sponsoring a known world wide crossbow specific non_speed
        > shooting competition. I believe we should be able to put up an annual
        > prize such as a bow or a golden popinjay or something of that sort. The
        > idea is to have the marshallate gather the scores. The person with the
        > highest number of points that year will be awarded the prize via their King
        > & Queen. The problem of course is coming up with a shoot which will be
        > available to anyone with access to a range. A Dresden type or true
        > popinjay shoot would be right out for obvious logistical reasons. It would
        > have to be shot at a standard SCA type range for instance 30 or 40 yards
        > maximum. Ideally it would be shot at a standard target so that it could be
        > scored without interrupting other shooters and without adding too much of a
        > burden to the marshals. Iolo suggested that a standard target could be
        > used with the outer gold ring counting 5 and the inner gold ring counting
        > 6.

        Would this be open to all crossbows or just period style? If period, what
        will the definition of period be?

        If you are using the standard IKAC target, you could also use the Period
        division scoring which is: white to blue= 2points, red to outer
        gold=4points and inner gold = 8 points. You could then extract the scores
        from any period division ikac crossbow score at the distances you wish.
        No additional set up needed if it had the same number of arrows per end,
        two ends of six arrow per distance for non speed rounds.

        Perhaps if you are shooting it a close range such as 20 yards, then to avoid
        bolt damage from close groupings you might use six targets on one face,
        maybe six inches or whatever the size of those small
        paper plates is, with a one inch center. I know I used to ruin a lot of
        my crossbow bolts at twenty yards. One shot per target. A little more
        challenging because the shooter would have to change their aim each time.

        Would it allow"bench shooting" which is period or just hand held?

        > Here are a number of questions which must be addressed: How would this be
        > scored? Would an individual's scores be averaged? Would the marshallate
        > be amenable to such a competition? Who would gather and calculate the
        > scores?

        Averaging would give a more accurate picture of their skill level. But,
        if the shoot is not a standard IKAC there might not be as many chancse,
        in all kingdoms, for someone to shoot it several times. It could be run
        by a non marshal and they could send you the scores. If it were to use
        the ikac target and scoring, then all the archer in charge would lhave to
        do is to make a zerox of the ikac score sheet with those shooting your
        competition marked and their score fhighlighted, etc. But there would
        still have to be an official marshal in charge on the range. You or Iolo
        could collect the scores, it is an excellent way to make contact with
        lots of archers. You also need to consider: 1) how to get the rules
        distributed. 2) How you will announce the scores, just once when it is
        over, or each month, etc.

        Maybe this winter I will finally get around to ordering a prod and
        fittings from you and make a period crossbow for myself. I like your
        plans on the web.

        Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, one time crossbow shooter and one time designer of
        archery competitions ;-)





        > You input in this discussion is greatly appreciated. Jim Koch
        > James Koch
        >
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      • D Humberson
        Okay, Gladius, you asked for it...... Try a 40 yard shoot at a standard 40 cm target( note, 40 cm, not 60 cm), with 3 bull faces allowed. Shoot 4 ends of 6
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 30, 1999
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          Okay, Gladius, you asked for it......

          Try a 40 yard shoot at a standard 40 cm target( note, 40 cm, not 60 cm),
          with 3 bull faces allowed. Shoot 4 ends of 6 shafts, two offhand and two at
          position of archer's choice. Score 10-9-8, not 5-4-3, and count x's as
          tiebreakers. If a tie occurs, shoot off at Pennsic. Scoring then becomes
          240-24x possible. If people really do get close to that, get real evil and
          start a period/no sights/no rifle-style stocks division( or do that anyway,
          from the start). I would suggest recording prod weight, bolt length, and
          lock style also, just to develop data on what top folks are shooting.

          Let the flamewars begin!

          Ragnar Ketilsson


          >From: James Koch <alchem@...>
          >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@onelist.com
          >To: SCA-Archery@onelist.com
          >Subject: [SCA-Archery] Crossbow specific competition
          >Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:19:41 -0400
          >
          >From: James Koch <alchem@...>
          >
          >Here is an important matter for discussion by the group. For several years
          >now Iolo and various other crossbow makers and I have been informally
          >discussing sponsoring a known world wide crossbow specific non_speed
          >shooting competition. I believe we should be able to put up an annual
          >prize such as a bow or a golden popinjay or something of that sort. The
          >idea is to have the marshallate gather the scores. The person with the
          >highest number of points that year will be awarded the prize via their King
          >& Queen. The problem of course is coming up with a shoot which will be
          >available to anyone with access to a range. A Dresden type or true
          >popinjay shoot would be right out for obvious logistical reasons. It would
          >have to be shot at a standard SCA type range for instance 30 or 40 yards
          >maximum. Ideally it would be shot at a standard target so that it could be
          >scored without interrupting other shooters and without adding too much of a
          >burden to the marshals. Iolo suggested that a standard target could be
          >used with the outer gold ring counting 5 and the inner gold ring counting
          >6.
          > >
          >Here are a number of questions which must be addressed: How would this be
          >scored? Would an individual's scores be averaged? Would the marshallate
          >be amenable to such a competition? Who would gather and calculate the
          >scores?
          > >
          >You input in this discussion is greatly appreciated. Jim Koch
          >James Koch
          >
          >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
          >
          >ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits.
          >
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
          >of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
          >[SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@... to leave this list]
        • D Humberson
          Having put forth a course which diverges a bit from what Gladius was proposing, I ll now actually read the post completely and try to respond to what he wrote!
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 30, 1999
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            Having put forth a course which diverges a bit from what Gladius was
            proposing, I'll now actually read the post completely and try to respond to
            what he wrote!

            >Ideally it would be shot at a standard target so that it could be
            >scored without interrupting other shooters and without adding too much of a
            >burden to the marshals. Iolo suggested that a standard target could be
            >used with the outer gold ring counting 5 and the inner gold ring counting
            >6.
            > >

            If you wanted to stay with a 60 cm face, I might suggest a full 10-9-8
            scoring here also, with the x ring scored as 12. This scoring puts a very
            high premium on hitting dead center, which I believe is to the good.

            >Here are a number of questions which must be addressed: How would this be
            >scored? Would an individual's scores be averaged? Would the marshallate
            >be amenable to such a competition? Who would gather and calculate the
            >scores?
            > >

            Taking them in order:
            Scored 10-9-8, either with x's as 12 or used as tiebreakers.
            Average of best 2 or best 3.
            I will run it anytime I hold a practice.
            Keep the shooter responsible for submission, with marshall's name.
            As you and Iolo are sponsoring it, pick somebody who's willing.

            Additional points:
            Four ends makes possibles less likely, as does requiring two standing
            ends.
            All ends should be shot with bows held only in the hands, not rested on
            benches or the ground. This would not preclude resting elbows on knees for
            seated shooting or elbows on the ground for prone shooting. Offhand could
            allow or disallow resting the elbow, as desired.
            All four ends should be shot contiguously, and only after declaration.
            Scores could be circulated monthly via this list, and the Rialto.
            Run one division in the first year, then see whether there is enough
            interest to warrant splitting out barebow/period/etc.
            Each end should have a 3 minute time limit, to keep the local marshalls
            sane.

            >You input in this discussion is greatly appreciated. Jim Koch
            >James Koch
            >
            I hope this gets off the ground - and I'll pass your proposal on to anyone
            who even might be interested.

            Ragnar Ketilsson
          • psobaka@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
            I like this and will start trying it to see what it is like. ... Plachoya Sobaka a humble archer in Ravens Fort, Kingdom of Ansteorra
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 30, 1999
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              I like this and will start trying it to see what it is like.
              >If you wanted to stay with a 60 cm face, I might suggest a full 10-9-8
              >scoring here also, with the x ring scored as 12. This scoring puts a very
              >high premium on hitting dead center, which I believe is to the good.
              >
              >Taking them in order:
              > Scored 10-9-8, either with x's as 12 or used as tiebreakers.
              > Average of best 2 or best 3.
              > I will run it anytime I hold a practice.
              > Keep the shooter responsible for submission, with marshall's name.
              > As you and Iolo are sponsoring it, pick somebody who's willing.
              >
              >Additional points:
              > Four ends makes possibles less likely, as does requiring two standing
              >ends.
              > All ends should be shot with bows held only in the hands, not rested on
              >benches or the ground. This would not preclude resting elbows on knees for
              >seated shooting or elbows on the ground for prone shooting. Offhand could
              >allow or disallow resting the elbow, as desired.
              > All four ends should be shot contiguously, and only after declaration.
              > Scores could be circulated monthly via this list, and the Rialto.
              > Run one division in the first year, then see whether there is enough
              >interest to warrant splitting out barebow/period/etc.
              > Each end should have a 3 minute time limit, to keep the local marshalls
              >sane.
              >
              Plachoya Sobaka a humble archer in Ravens Fort, Kingdom of Ansteorra
            • Eli White
              I really like this proposed solution ... It sounds like alot of fun. Just to point out some parts that I like: a) I like the idea of having two categories -
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 31, 1999
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                I really like this proposed solution ... It sounds like alot of fun. Just
                to point out some parts that I like:

                a) I like the idea of having two categories - 'Period/No Sights/No rifle
                Stocks/No Pistol Grips' and a 'anything goes' category. At least to start
                out. If nothing else it will actually give us all a good idea as to the
                difference ... Perhaps we won't see any, and we can later eliminate the
                categories, or we might see a major difference and thus keep the categories
                different.

                b) I like the idea of keeping track of prod weight, draw length, bolt
                length, fletch style (2,3,4), and maybe other statistics - would just be
                fun to see all these, and to see if perhaps the top 10 in each category
                happens to have similar characteristics ...

                c) I like the idea of having two ends standing, two ends choice - makes
                sure that you can use the bow in any method.

                d) I also like the idea of just having it be 4 ends at 40 ... this allows
                the crossbowmen(people) to do this competition while others are just
                practicing, and to not have to tie up time. When people are just
                practicing from the 40, you can get the competition in.

                Siegfried


                >Taking them in order:
                > Scored 10-9-8, either with x's as 12 or used as tiebreakers.
                > Average of best 2 or best 3.
                > I will run it anytime I hold a practice.
                > Keep the shooter responsible for submission, with marshall's name.
                > As you and Iolo are sponsoring it, pick somebody who's willing.
                >
                >Additional points:
                > Four ends makes possibles less likely, as does requiring two standing
                > ends.
                > All ends should be shot with bows held only in the hands, not rested
                > on benches or the ground. This would not preclude resting elbows on
                > knees for seated shooting or elbows on the ground for prone
                > shooting. Offhand could allow or disallow resting the elbow, as desired.
                > All four ends should be shot contiguously, and only after declaration.
                > Scores could be circulated monthly via this list, and the Rialto.
                > Run one division in the first year, then see whether there is enough
                > interest to warrant splitting out barebow/period/etc.
                > Each end should have a 3 minute time limit, to keep the local
                > marshalls sane.

                ______________________________________________________________________
                Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust Barony of Highland Foorde
                Minister of Misinformation (Chronicler & Web Minister)
                http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org
              • James Koch
                I have finally read over the suggestions for the crossbow specific shoot. It occurred to me that perhaps this period archery company which is supposedly
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 14, 1999
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                  I have finally read over the suggestions for the crossbow specific shoot.
                  It occurred to me that perhaps this period archery company which is
                  supposedly forming might be interested in sponsoring such a competition. I
                  believe I can provide the annual prize which I propose to be a golden
                  popinjay to be worn on a chain around the winner's neck. This is quite
                  appropriate. Any takers? Jim Koch
                  James Koch
                • Robert L Brunnemer
                  Hallo!!! Well I really like the idea of the archery company sponsoring the crossbow shoot, but really as far as that goes really things like that should wait
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 22, 1999
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                    Hallo!!!

                    Well I really like the idea of the archery company sponsoring the
                    crossbow shoot, but really as far as that goes really things like that
                    should wait until it is a real company, and not just a theoretical one.
                    :-) Good idea though!!!

                    Have a nice day!!!
                    Robert
                    Hugewheels@...
                    Tha mi a'fluich mi kilt!!!

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