Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [SCA-Archery] making arrows

Expand Messages
  • Joe Klovance
    To me assemble is not accurate. Assemble means putting something together using a set of instructions that refer to objects with slots, screws, nails, glue
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 30, 2013
      To me assemble is not accurate. Assemble means putting something together using a set of instructions that refer to objects with slots, screws, nails, glue etc. The main point is that everything is pre-cut, pre-drilled and usually pre-finished. There is very little skill involved at all. One assembles an Ikea bookshelf.

      Build is closer as it usually involves cutting and a much larger possibility for error. The thing that makes build less accurate is that I usually associate "build" with larger objects like "buildings".

      I see "make" as very accurate. There is a lot of skill involved in making arrows; what kind to make, material selection, spining, point selection, point attachment, length selection, fletching, nocking, finishing, etc. There are many ways to go wrong and "making" a good arrow is an art as well as a skill. I see it along the same lines as most seamstresses who "make cloths". Most of their work is sizing, cutting and sewing. To me that is very similar to the process of arrow making.

      Gryffyd
    • Sean Powell
      Have you seen some of the mistakes that can be made assembling an IKEA shelf? Assembly can be quite the acquired skill set. :) I have this same discussion with
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 30, 2013
        Have you seen some of the mistakes that can be made assembling an IKEA shelf? Assembly can be quite the acquired skill set. :)

        I have this same discussion with people regarding 'making' armor. I don't run my own blast furnace or trip-hammer out my own sheet. I don't cast my own brass or copper rivets and buckles. What I do make I frequently make with laser-cut steel, a 20th century drill and 20th centurn grinder and a other 20th century tools on a 19th century pattern anvil. I don't tan the leather for my own straps and I don't refine the oil or wak that keeps it from rusting. The context of the question though is "Did you make that -OR- did you buy that." As I didn't buy it the alternate answer is I made it. The amount to which I made from scratch vs assembled is something craftsman can discuss in detail privately. Once day I hope to cast my own brass and tan my own leather but now is not that day.
         
        Just my opinion on the buy/make/assembly distinction.
         
        Sean
        On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Joe Klovance <jklovanc@...> wrote:
         

        To me assemble is not accurate. Assemble means putting something together using a set of instructions that refer to objects with slots, screws, nails, glue etc. The main point is that everything is pre-cut, pre-drilled and usually pre-finished. There is very little skill involved at all. One assembles an Ikea bookshelf.

        Gryffyd


      • houseofgrey
        Perhaps I should have put the mouse and keyboard down and stepped back away from the computer, but I just HAD to.................... This perception rampantly
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 1 5:16 AM

           Perhaps I should have put the mouse and keyboard down and stepped back away from the computer, but I just HAD to....................


          This perception rampantly popular in the SCA that people in period made everything from scratch themselves is simply stupid!  Just because some Norseman wore a wool sweater do we really think he grew the grass that the sheep ate that he raised then sheared so he could card the wool then spin it into a thread so he could knit or naalbind a garment to wear?  REALLY???  How about his wife bought the thread that was spun by a person who bought the wool from the sheep herder who all lived either in the same village or nearby villages.  Market day in period was not just for the hero of our story to see his love from afar!


          I applaud folks like Janyn, who makes beautiful arrows, and an individual in my area who actually goes out in the woods and cuts a tree so he can come back a year or so later when the sappers are coming up just so he can get shafts that are straight and the "right" size to make his arrows with.


          I have heard fiber laurels discuss the lunacy of the "sheep to shawl" concept.  Do we really need to apply that to archery?  That is not to say that making an arrow or bow from scratch does not impart a high appreciation for those who can do it well.  I made a guitar just to fully understand how one is made and why one is better than another.  Same applies here, but I shoot store bought bows and assemble my arrows from store bought materials.


          cog with strong opinions.........



          ---In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, <sca-archery@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Lord Richard,

          How about "built"? That seems to be the term in popular use in the traditional archery community, even when talking about high-tech carbon shafts and machined broadheads. When you were a youngster and "built" model airplane kits, you didn't make the parts. I'll bet you were still proud!

          I'm from Midwest, where guilt is a way of life. Maybe if I live long enough here in the South, I will get over it before I die. :~)

          Yours Aye,


          Muingo

          -----Original Message-----
          From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of richard johnson
          Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 2:04 PM
          To: SCA-archery
          Subject: [SCA-Archery] making arrows

          You are correct.
          I do feel guilty stating that I "made" my arrows when I am actually assembling them.
          But that's a personal problem.

          From comments, actually making an arrow now or then was a major undertaking with so many links that could break and shut it all down.
          *Miners dug the ore from the ground.
          *Blacksmiths turned the ore into steel arrowheads.
          *Woodcutters located, cut and trimmed the trees for the shafts.
          *gooseherds (sp) collected the molted wing-feathers for the fletching.
          *Carpenters or arrowsmiths turned the wood into shafts.
          *farmers grew the cotton or flax for the binding.
          *Weavers turned the cotton into thread.
          ***and so on....

          If even one part of that web broke-down, some could be replaced but others could not. You an replace fish-glue with pine-glue. Wood with cane, iron with bronze or bone.. Some of equal value, some not.
          You can junt a deer with a bone-tipped cane arrow but that arrow will NOT penetrate even the lightest armor.

          But the entire scheme is an amazingly complex set of interactive occupations needed to create an arrow!


          --
          Rick Johnson
          http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
          "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither."


          ------------------------------------

          --
          THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL SCA SITE.


          [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Jim Pickette
          In one instance, Vikings were raiders and traders. They liked the Frankish swords so much that Charlemagne made a law forbidding the sale of Frankish swords
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 1 5:45 AM
            In one instance, Vikings were raiders and traders. They liked the Frankish swords so much that Charlemagne made a law forbidding the sale of Frankish swords to Vikings.

            Earlier Merovignian Franks were short on metal objects so they traded for those. A significant part of Salic Law had to do with merchanting.

            James Of Odo, Fidelibus.


            ---- cogworks@... wrote:
          • Janyn Fletcher
            Like birds of a feather COG :) I guess I should have stepped away myself but here goes....   Thank you all for the kind comments. It was something I wanted to
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 1 6:14 AM
              Like birds of a feather COG :) I guess I should have stepped away myself but here goes....
               
              Thank you all for the kind comments. It was something I wanted to try and do myself and I have to be honest that my arthritis in my hands lets me know that doing "all scratch" arrows is something that I probably wont be doing all the time. Now with that said, frankly I think it is impractical for event to event shooting that most of us do. I shoot "traditional" arrows as do most others around me. It is more cost effective and they tend to be more accurate for the competitions we take part in. I dont see anything wrong with this at all because even traditional arrows are still made in the same spirit as period shafts were. The fact that we can purchase the components does not "cheapen" anything for me.
               
              Janyn
               

              From: "cogworks@..." <cogworks@...>
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 8:16 AM
              Subject: RE: RE: [SCA-Archery] making arrows
               
               Perhaps I should have put the mouse and keyboard down and stepped back away from the computer, but I just HAD to....................

              This perception rampantly popular in the SCA that people in period made everything from scratch themselves is simply stupid!  Just because some Norseman wore a wool sweater do we really think he grew the grass that the sheep ate that he raised then sheared so he could card the wool then spin it into a thread so he could knit or naalbind a garment to wear?  REALLY???  How about his wife bought the thread that was spun by a person who bought the wool from the sheep herder who all lived either in the same village or nearby villages.  Market day in period was not just for the hero of our story to see his love from afar!

              I applaud folks like Janyn, who makes beautiful arrows, and an individual in my area who actually goes out in the woods and cuts a tree so he can come back a year or so later when the sappers are coming up just so he can get shafts that are straight and the "right" size to make his arrows with.

              I have heard fiber laurels discuss the lunacy of the "sheep to shawl" concept.  Do we really need to apply that to archery?  That is not to say that making an arrow or bow from scratch does not impart a high appreciation for those who can do it well.  I made a guitar just to fully understand how one is made and why one is better than another.  Same applies here, but I shoot store bought bows and assemble my arrows from store bought materials.

              cog with strong opinions.........
              ---In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, <sca-archery@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              Lord Richard, How about "built"? That seems to be the term in popular use in the traditional archery community, even when talking about high-tech carbon shafts and machined broadheads. When you were a youngster and "built" model airplane kits, you didn't make the parts. I'll bet you were still proud! I'm from Midwest, where guilt is a way of life. Maybe if I live long enough here in the South, I will get over it before I die. :~) Yours Aye, Muingo -----Original Message----- From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of richard johnson Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 2:04 PM To: SCA-archery Subject: [SCA-Archery] making arrows You are correct. I do feel guilty stating that I "made" my arrows when I am actually assembling them. But that's a personal problem. From comments, actually making an arrow now or then was a major undertaking with so many links that could break and shut it all down. *Miners dug the ore from the ground. *Blacksmiths turned the ore into steel arrowheads. *Woodcutters located, cut and trimmed the trees for the shafts. *gooseherds (sp) collected the molted wing-feathers for the fletching. *Carpenters or arrowsmiths turned the wood into shafts. *farmers grew the cotton or flax for the binding. *Weavers turned the cotton into thread. ***and so on.... If even one part of that web broke-down, some could be replaced but others could not. You an replace fish-glue with pine-glue. Wood with cane, iron with bronze or bone.. Some of equal value, some not. You can junt a deer with a bone-tipped cane arrow but that arrow will NOT penetrate even the lightest armor. But the entire scheme is an amazingly complex set of interactive occupations needed to create an arrow! -- Rick Johnson http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither." ------------------------------------ -- THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL SCA SITE. [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list] Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Janyn Fletcher
              Like birds of a feather COG :) I guess I should have stepped away myself but here goes....   Thank you all for the kind comments. It was something I wanted to
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 1 6:24 AM
                Like birds of a feather COG :) I guess I should have stepped away myself but here goes....
                 
                Thank you all for the kind comments. It was something I wanted to try and do myself and I have to be honest that my arthritis in my hands lets me know that doing "all scratch" arrows is something that I probably wont be doing all the time. Now with that said, frankly I think it is impractical for event to event shooting that most of us do. I shoot "traditional" arrows as do most others around me. It is more cost effective and they tend to be more accurate for the competitions we take part in. I dont see anything wrong with this at all because even traditional arrows are still made in the same spirit as period shafts were. The fact that we can purchase the components does not "cheapen" anything for me.
                 
                Janyn
                 

                From: "cogworks@..." <cogworks@...>
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 8:16 AM
                Subject: RE: RE: [SCA-Archery] making arrows
                 
                 Perhaps I should have put the mouse and keyboard down and stepped back away from the computer, but I just HAD to....................

                This perception rampantly popular in the SCA that people in period made everything from scratch themselves is simply stupid!  Just because some Norseman wore a wool sweater do we really think he grew the grass that the sheep ate that he raised then sheared so he could card the wool then spin it into a thread so he could knit or naalbind a garment to wear?  REALLY???  How about his wife bought the thread that was spun by a person who bought the wool from the sheep herder who all lived either in the same village or nearby villages.  Market day in period was not just for the hero of our story to see his love from afar!

                I applaud folks like Janyn, who makes beautiful arrows, and an individual in my area who actually goes out in the woods and cuts a tree so he can come back a year or so later when the sappers are coming up just so he can get shafts that are straight and the "right" size to make his arrows with.

                I have heard fiber laurels discuss the lunacy of the "sheep to shawl" concept.  Do we really need to apply that to archery?  That is not to say that making an arrow or bow from scratch does not impart a high appreciation for those who can do it well.  I made a guitar just to fully understand how one is made and why one is better than another.  Same applies here, but I shoot store bought bows and assemble my arrows from store bought materials.

                cog with strong opinions.........
                ---In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, <sca-archery@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                Lord Richard, How about "built"? That seems to be the term in popular use in the traditional archery community, even when talking about high-tech carbon shafts and machined broadheads. When you were a youngster and "built" model airplane kits, you didn't make the parts. I'll bet you were still proud! I'm from Midwest, where guilt is a way of life. Maybe if I live long enough here in the South, I will get over it before I die. :~) Yours Aye, Muingo -----Original Message----- From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of richard johnson Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 2:04 PM To: SCA-archery Subject: [SCA-Archery] making arrows You are correct. I do feel guilty stating that I "made" my arrows when I am actually assembling them. But that's a personal problem. From comments, actually making an arrow now or then was a major undertaking with so many links that could break and shut it all down. *Miners dug the ore from the ground. *Blacksmiths turned the ore into steel arrowheads. *Woodcutters located, cut and trimmed the trees for the shafts. *gooseherds (sp) collected the molted wing-feathers for the fletching. *Carpenters or arrowsmiths turned the wood into shafts. *farmers grew the cotton or flax for the binding. *Weavers turned the cotton into thread. ***and so on.... If even one part of that web broke-down, some could be replaced but others could not. You an replace fish-glue with pine-glue. Wood with cane, iron with bronze or bone.. Some of equal value, some not. You can junt a deer with a bone-tipped cane arrow but that arrow will NOT penetrate even the lightest armor. But the entire scheme is an amazingly complex set of interactive occupations needed to create an arrow! -- Rick Johnson http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither." ------------------------------------ -- THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL SCA SITE. [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list] Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Wanda Lee Kinnie
                Cog, I really love your “HAD to” comments. As one that has had 3 different sets of arrows made by Janyn, I feel lucky and fortunate to be able to show off
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 1 11:09 AM

                  Cog, I really love your “HAD to” comments. As one that has had 3 different sets of arrows made by Janyn, I feel lucky and fortunate to be able to show off his craftsman ship. And “YES”, he made those arrows. Or constructed…or whatever word you wish to insert. I make my clothing for SCA; do I grow the fibre? Do I weave it? No. But I demm sure to “MAKE” my clothing and in order to do so, I make (yes, some will say “earn” not “make”) my money so that I can continue to have fun in the SCA. And one word is not going to change that fact for me.

                  Godai, like Janyn, does not grow the product, to make his bamboo arrows or forge the steel for the points, but you can be demm sure that he makes his long-arsed arrows.

                  Do the Laurels, grow the wheat to make the bread/drink? Do they they grow the fibres to make the thread/linen/cloth? There might be some that do, but they are the exception. And there are many Laurels that do “NOT” and they are still a Laurel.

                  dictionary.com: to bring into existence by shaping or changing material, combining parts. To produce.

                  We, in the SCA are portraying the Gentry: wellborn and well-bred people; (in England) the class below the nobility; an upper or ruling class; aristocracy; those who are not members of the nobility but are entitled to a coat-of-arms.

                  Gentry did not “make” or “produce” what they used; was it not purchased? Or, if they were lucky, it could have been “gifted” to them.

                  In 1252 the 'Assize of Arms' was passed which decreed that every man between the age of 15 to 60 years old were ordered to equip themselves with a bow and arrows.

                  Do you think they had to make the bows and arrows themselves? I don’t.

                  I, for one, am going to continue to say that Janyn, Godai, myself, or whoever “made” whatever it is I am speaking about if it so warrants it. But then, that’s just me and I can be headstrong and stubborn—even if wrong.

                  LadyWanda Ostojowna
                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/wandaostojowna/sets/

                   

                  From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cogworks@...

                   Perhaps I should have put the mouse and keyboard down and stepped back away from the computer, but I just HAD to....................

                   

                  This perception rampantly popular in the SCA that people in period made everything from scratch themselves is simply stupid!  Just because some Norseman wore a wool sweater do we really think he grew the grass that the sheep ate that he raised then sheared so he could card the wool then spin it into a thread so he could knit or naalbind a garment to wear?  REALLY???  How about his wife bought the thread that was spun by a person who bought the wool from the sheep herder who all lived either in the same village or nearby villages.  Market day in period was not just for the hero of our story to see his love from afar!

                   

                  I applaud folks like Janyn, who makes beautiful arrows, and an individual in my area who actually goes out in the woods and cuts a tree so he can come back a year or so later when the sappers are coming up just so he can get shafts that are straight and the "right" size to make his arrows with.

                   

                  I have heard fiber laurels discuss the lunacy of the "sheep to shawl" concept.  Do we really need to apply that to archery?  That is not to say that making an arrow or bow from scratch does not impart a high appreciation for those who can do it well.  I made a guitar just to fully understand how one is made and why one is better than another.  Same applies here, but I shoot store bought bows and assemble my arrows from store bought materials.

                   

                  cog with strong opinions.........







                • Jonathan L Murphy
                  Can’t speak to medieval archer equipment production but in my area (shoes), delineation of tasks was pretty clear. Jon/Seamus From:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 1 11:22 AM

                    Can’t speak to medieval archer equipment production but in my area (shoes), delineation of tasks was pretty clear.   

                     

                    Jon/Seamus

                     

                     

                    From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wanda Lee Kinnie
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 1:10 PM
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: RE: [SCA-Archery] making arrows

                     

                     

                    Cog, I really love your “HAD to” comments. As one that has had 3 different sets of arrows made by Janyn, I feel lucky and fortunate to be able to show off his craftsman ship. And “YES”, he made those arrows. Or constructed…or whatever word you wish to insert. I make my clothing for SCA; do I grow the fibre? Do I weave it? No. But I demm sure to “MAKE” my clothing and in order to do so, I make (yes, some will say “earn” not “make”) my money so that I can continue to have fun in the SCA. And one word is not going to change that fact for me.

                    Godai, like Janyn, does not grow the product, to make his bamboo arrows or forge the steel for the points, but you can be demm sure that he makes his long-arsed arrows.

                    Do the Laurels, grow the wheat to make the bread/drink? Do they they grow the fibres to make the thread/linen/cloth? There might be some that do, but they are the exception. And there are many Laurels that do “NOT” and they are still a Laurel.

                    dictionary.com: to bring into existence by shaping or changing material, combining parts. To produce.

                    We, in the SCA are portraying the Gentry: wellborn and well-bred people; (in England) the class below the nobility; an upper or ruling class; aristocracy; those who are not members of the nobility but are entitled to a coat-of-arms.

                    Gentry did not “make” or “produce” what they used; was it not purchased? Or, if they were lucky, it could have been “gifted” to them.

                    In 1252 the 'Assize of Arms' was passed which decreed that every man between the age of 15 to 60 years old were ordered to equip themselves with a bow and arrows.

                    Do you think they had to make the bows and arrows themselves? I don’t.

                    I, for one, am going to continue to say that Janyn, Godai, myself, or whoever “made” whatever it is I am speaking about if it so warrants it. But then, that’s just me and I can be headstrong and stubborn—even if wrong.

                    LadyWanda Ostojowna
                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wandaostojowna/sets/

                     

                     Perhaps I should have put the mouse and keyboard down and stepped back away from the computer, but I just HAD to....................

                     

                    This perception rampantly popular in the SCA that people in period made everything from scratch themselves is simply stupid!  Just because some Norseman wore a wool sweater do we really think he grew the grass that the sheep ate that he raised then sheared so he could card the wool then spin it into a thread so he could knit or naalbind a garment to wear?  REALLY???  How about his wife bought the thread that was spun by a person who bought the wool from the sheep herder who all lived either in the same village or nearby villages.  Market day in period was not just for the hero of our story to see his love from afar!

                     

                    I applaud folks like Janyn, who makes beautiful arrows, and an individual in my area who actually goes out in the woods and cuts a tree so he can come back a year or so later when the sappers are coming up just so he can get shafts that are straight and the "right" size to make his arrows with.

                     

                    I have heard fiber laurels discuss the lunacy of the "sheep to shawl" concept.  Do we really need to apply that to archery?  That is not to say that making an arrow or bow from scratch does not impart a high appreciation for those who can do it well.  I made a guitar just to fully understand how one is made and why one is better than another.  Same applies here, but I shoot store bought bows and assemble my arrows from store bought materials.

                     

                    cog with strong opinions.........









                  • James Koch
                    Gentlemen & Ladies, ... Parts were purchased all the way back in prehistoric times. Here in Ohio there is a long ridge of flint Flint Ridge that was
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 1 8:25 PM
                      Gentlemen & Ladies,
                      >
                      Parts were purchased all the way back in prehistoric times. Here in
                      Ohio there is a long ridge of flint "Flint Ridge" that was uncovered
                      by a glacier during one of the ice ages. The flint is pink and white
                      and can easily be distinguished from flint mined in other parts of
                      North America. At the ridge there are plenty of pits and piles of
                      scrap from flint knapping. Due to the difficulty of transport, the
                      projectile points were fabricated where the flint was dug out of the
                      ground. These were than carried back to the home villages of the
                      natives for later trade. The points were traded mostly Southward in
                      exchange for complete arrows, ceramics, and carved stone pipes. The
                      stone pipes have been found in the burial mounds of central and
                      Southern Ohio. The stone pipes were made in Mexico from stone found
                      there. Projectile points made in Ohio of Ohio flint can be found in
                      archaeological sites in Mexico. This was of course all indirect
                      trade. No one actually carried a canoe load of flint points from
                      Ohio directly to Mexico.
                      >
                      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                    • Doug Copley
                      nice info, thanks for sharing that! Vincenti
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 2 9:01 AM
                        nice info, thanks for sharing that!

                        Vincenti


                        On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 10:25 PM, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                         

                        Gentlemen & Ladies,
                        >
                        Parts were purchased all the way back in prehistoric times. Here in
                        Ohio there is a long ridge of flint "Flint Ridge" that was uncovered
                        by a glacier during one of the ice ages. The flint is pink and white
                        and can easily be distinguished from flint mined in other parts of
                        North America. At the ridge there are plenty of pits and piles of
                        scrap from flint knapping. Due to the difficulty of transport, the
                        projectile points were fabricated where the flint was dug out of the
                        ground. These were than carried back to the home villages of the
                        natives for later trade. The points were traded mostly Southward in
                        exchange for complete arrows, ceramics, and carved stone pipes. The
                        stone pipes have been found in the burial mounds of central and
                        Southern Ohio. The stone pipes were made in Mexico from stone found
                        there. Projectile points made in Ohio of Ohio flint can be found in
                        archaeological sites in Mexico. This was of course all indirect
                        trade. No one actually carried a canoe load of flint points from
                        Ohio directly to Mexico.
                        >
                        Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"


                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.