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Re: [SCA-Archery] what is allowed and where

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  • Robert Sandusky
    First I think you have to remember that the SCA is not a reenacting organization (I m a reenactor so I m not bashing reenacting organizations) with strict
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 23, 2013
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      First I think you have to remember that the SCA is not a reenacting organization (I'm a reenactor so I'm not bashing reenacting organizations) with strict historical standards.  If it was about 75% of the current members would not be allowed out to play.  And quite honestly, having study combat fighting with swords from historical treatise, our heavy fights nor fencers aren't even close to the real thing.
       
      Having flirted with the SCA in the 70s when elves, etc were all the rage the SCA has definitely moved closer to historical accuracy but it still isn't a requirement.
       
      We aren't (to use a CW Reenacting term) stitch Nazis.
       
      With that said, we have moved a whole lot closer and encourage those who want to be more accurate to do so without chasing those less authentic away.
       
      With respect to bows;
      1. At 20 feet a fiberglass recurve can look authentic
      2. A compound can't
      3. a PVC one can't
      Also one of the great barriers to authenticity can be cost, the closer you get to museum quality the higher the outlay.  I have no artistic talent at all (I can't draw a straight line with a ruler and a pencil) so for me to make a period bow is out of the question.  However I can afford to purchase period longbows so I do.
       
      But what about those who can't make or purchase one?  Do we tell them no?
       
      I try to be as authentic as I am comfortable with (no need to die of black plague to prove my authenticity) and will push the edge of the envelope when I want to and set a new standard for myself.
       
      My standards for my archery range?  Have something that looks like it might have been used before 1650 (from 20 feet away), be safe and DON'T be a jerk.
       
      Yours in Service;
       
      Robert the Tall
      Deputy Archery Marshal - Shire of Owlsherst - East Kingdom

      From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
      To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 1:27 PM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] what is allowed and where
       
      The Rules may seem to be capricious and inconsistant and may
      ocasionally reflect the prejudices and finances of the Marshall...

      .... wood-&-fiberglass laminate bows with a cut-out arrow-shelf are allowed.
      .....wood self-bows are encouraged.
      .....Composite (wood laminate) bows are allowed
      .....Compound bows (pullys) are not!
      ..... PVC bows are not.
      .....What about 100% fiberglass bows that look more Period than recurves???

      .....Wood arrows are required
      .....aluminun and synthetics are not.
      .....aluminun arrows with feathers are ?????
      .....wood arrows with plastic vanes are????

      .....dacron bowstrings are allowed

      .....add-on arrow shelf are tolorated.

      .....wood yumi self-bows are allowed.

      Some of these are SCA Rules, some Kingdom Rules and some are Event Rules.
      I suspect that modern fiberglass recurves with shelfs are allowed
      becuase when that rule was made, jno one could find or afford a
      Period-looking bow!
      I suspect that PVC bows are banned simply because they may be fun to
      make, they just look tacky<g>. Compound bows are too modern so are
      banned.
      Dacron bowstrings will always be allowed for safety!

      So I suspect that in at least some cases, the Rules were made to
      encourage Authenticity, in other cases financial reasons made the Rule
      and in some, personal prejudices.

      (note that I've seen some PVC horse-bows that easily passed the
      20'-rule and some fiberglass recurves that just looked... well let's
      end there.)

      --
      Rick Johnson
      http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
      "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
      security will soon find that they have neither."
    • John Edgerton
      I believe that PVC bows can look authentic at twenty feet or even less. See the attachment for a few of the Backyard Bowyer s PVC bows.  Jon ... I believe
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 23, 2013
      I believe that PVC bows can look authentic at twenty feet or even less. See the attachment for a few of the Backyard Bowyer's PVC bows. 

      Jon


      From: Robert Sandusky <rdsandusky@...>
      To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:48 AM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] what is allowed and where

       
      First I think you have to remember that the SCA is not a reenacting organization (I'm a reenactor so I'm not bashing reenacting organizations) with strict historical standards.  If it was about 75% of the current members would not be allowed out to play.  And quite honestly, having study combat fighting with swords from historical treatise, our heavy fights nor fencers aren't even close to the real thing.
       
      Having flirted with the SCA in the 70s when elves, etc were all the rage the SCA has definitely moved closer to historical accuracy but it still isn't a requirement.
       
      We aren't (to use a CW Reenacting term) stitch Nazis.
       
      With that said, we have moved a whole lot closer and encourage those who want to be more accurate to do so without chasing those less authentic away.
       
      With respect to bows;
      1. At 20 feet a fiberglass recurve can look authentic
      2. A compound can't
      3. a PVC one can't
      Also one of the great barriers to authenticity can be cost, the closer you get to museum quality the higher the outlay.  I have no artistic talent at all (I can't draw a straight line with a ruler and a pencil) so for me to make a period bow is out of the question.  However I can afford to purchase period longbows so I do.
       
      But what about those who can't make or purchase one?  Do we tell them no?
       
      I try to be as authentic as I am comfortable with (no need to die of black plague to prove my authenticity) and will push the edge of the envelope when I want to and set a new standard for myself.
       
      My standards for my archery range?  Have something that looks like it might have been used before 1650 (from 20 feet away), be safe and DON'T be a jerk.
       
      Yours in Service;
       
      Robert the Tall
      Deputy Archery Marshal - Shire of Owlsherst - East Kingdom
    • richard johnson
      ... One the the big draws. I machine sew my Garb. I use power tools to make my acessories (I made a bone needle case and ivory needles.. but did so with an
      Message 3 of 6 , Sep 23, 2013
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        >>Having flirted with the SCA in the 70s when elves, etc were all the rage the SCA has definitely moved closer to historical accuracy but it still isn't a requirement.

        One the the big draws.
        I machine sew my Garb. I use power tools to make my acessories (I
        made a bone needle case and ivory needles.. but did so with an
        electric drill and belt sanfer).

        >>We aren't (to use a CW Reenacting term) stitch Nazis.

        Though I have met many such IN the SCA<g>. 20' rule.

        >>With that said, we have moved a whole lot closer and encourage those who want to be more accurate to do so without chasing those less authentic away.

        A good goal.
        Be as authentic as you can but have fun doing so.

        >>With respect to bows;
        >>At 20 feet a fiberglass recurve can look authentic

        I have a green fiberglass "lonmg"bow with rubber nocktips that someone
        had covered with brown tape to resemble wood. It's a cute bow that I
        can take into the desert without fearing breakage, rot or termites.
        So I brought it us in passing.

        >>Also one of the great barriers to authenticity can be cost, the closer you get to museum quality the higher the outlay. I have no artistic talent at all (I can't draw a straight line with a ruler and a pencil) so for me to make a period bow is out of the question. However I can afford to purchase period longbows so I do.

        Back when.. I could do neither. BUT I did own a wood self-bow with
        cut-out arrow rest back in 1972. found it at a swap meet for $4.
        Today I can afford to buy (and with the internet, inexpensive
        long-bows are far more affordable today than they were 20 years ago)
        but still cannot make the bow. Though I can and do make my own arrows
        and am experimenting with making strings.

        So I can grasp the rules about fiberglass recurve bows and wood v
        aluminum arrows... I may not agree with them. And i can argue for and
        against them... But I still suspect that some were a personal belief
        rule and not practical or safety rule.

        BTW, not one of the bows i ever made would be considered to be 'safe'.
        I can make almost anything else you can imagine but I suck at
        tempering steel and making a bow!

        On 9/23/13, Robert Sandusky <rdsandusky@...> wrote:
        > First I think you have to remember that the SCA is not a reenacting
        > organization (I'm a reenactor so I'm not bashing reenacting organizations)
        > with strict historical standards.  If it was about 75% of the current
        > members would not be allowed out to play.  And quite honestly, having study
        > combat fighting with swords from historical treatise, our heavy fights nor
        > fencers aren't even close to the real thing.
        >
        > Having flirted with the SCA in the 70s when elves, etc were all the rage the
        > SCA has definitely moved closer to historical accuracy but it still isn't a
        > requirement.
        >
        > We aren't (to use a CW Reenacting term) stitch Nazis.
        >
        > With that said, we have moved a whole lot closer and encourage those who
        > want to be more accurate to do so without chasing those less authentic
        > away.
        >
        > With respect to bows;
        > 1. At 20 feet a fiberglass recurve can look authentic
        > 2. A compound can't
        > 3. a PVC one can't
        > Also one of the great barriers to authenticity can be cost, the closer you
        > get to museum quality the higher the outlay.  I have no artistic talent at
        > all (I can't draw a straight line with a ruler and a pencil) so for me to
        > make a period bow is out of the question.  However I can afford to purchase
        > period longbows so I do.
        >
        > But what about those who can't make or purchase one?  Do we tell them no?
        >
        > I try to be as authentic as I am comfortable with (no need to die of black
        > plague to prove my authenticity) and will push the edge of the envelope when
        > I want to and set a new standard for myself.
        >
        > My standards for my archery range?  Have something that looks like it might
        > have been used before 1650 (from 20 feet away), be safe and DON'T be a
        > jerk.
        >
        > Yours in Service;
        >
        > Robert the Tall
        > Deputy Archery Marshal - Shire of Owlsherst - East Kingdom
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
        > To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 1:27 PM
        > Subject: [SCA-Archery] what is allowed and where
        >
        >
        >
        > The Rules may seem to be capricious and inconsistant and may
        > ocasionally reflect the prejudices and finances of the Marshall...
        >
        > .... wood-&-fiberglass laminate bows with a cut-out arrow-shelf are
        > allowed.
        > .....wood self-bows are encouraged.
        > .....Composite (wood laminate) bows are allowed
        > .....Compound bows (pullys) are not!
        > ..... PVC bows are not.
        > .....What about 100% fiberglass bows that look more Period than recurves???
        >
        > .....Wood arrows are required
        > .....aluminun and synthetics are not.
        > .....aluminun arrows with feathers are ?????
        > .....wood arrows with plastic vanes are????
        >
        > .....dacron bowstrings are allowed
        >
        > .....add-on arrow shelf are tolorated.
        >
        > .....wood yumi self-bows are allowed.
        >
        > Some of these are SCA Rules, some Kingdom Rules and some are Event Rules.
        > I suspect that modern fiberglass recurves with shelfs are allowed
        > becuase when that rule was made, jno one could find or afford a
        > Period-looking bow!
        > I suspect that PVC bows are banned simply because they may be fun to
        > make, they just look tacky<g>. Compound bows are too modern so are
        > banned.
        > Dacron bowstrings will always be allowed for safety!
        >
        > So I suspect that in at least some cases, the Rules were made to
        > encourage Authenticity, in other cases financial reasons made the Rule
        > and in some, personal prejudices.
        >
        > (note that I've seen some PVC horse-bows that easily passed the
        > 20'-rule and some fiberglass recurves that just looked... well let's
        > end there.)
        >
        > --
        > Rick Johnson
        > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
        > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
        > security will soon find that they have neither."
        >
        >


        --
        Rick Johnson
        http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
        "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
        security will soon find that they have neither."
      • richard johnson
        ... Good to know, I have not YET made a PVC bow.. too many other projects on the list. But when the Thrtead appeared, all the PVC bows I saw online were really
        Message 4 of 6 , Sep 23, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          >>Just to make it clear, PVC bows are not banned for target archery at the Society level. They are banned for combat pending testing by the marshalete. They may allowed or not allowed at kingdom level for target.

          Good to know,
          I have not YET made a PVC bow.. too many other projects on the list.
          But when the Thrtead appeared, all the PVC bows I saw online were
          really trashy-looking things.
          Since then, I've seen some really attractive PVC bows, though anything
          looks good with photoshop<g>.
          Still, IMHO, It is cheaper and better to buy a good and
          authentic-looking self-bow online than to go through the effort to
          make a PVC bow that may or may not work.

          Won;t stop me from eventually making one or ten though<g..

          On 9/23/13, richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
          >>>Having flirted with the SCA in the 70s when elves, etc were all the rage
          >>> the SCA has definitely moved closer to historical accuracy but it still
          >>> isn't a requirement.
          >
          > One the the big draws.
          > I machine sew my Garb. I use power tools to make my acessories (I
          > made a bone needle case and ivory needles.. but did so with an
          > electric drill and belt sanfer).
          >
          >>>We aren't (to use a CW Reenacting term) stitch Nazis.
          >
          > Though I have met many such IN the SCA<g>. 20' rule.
          >
          >>>With that said, we have moved a whole lot closer and encourage those who
          >>> want to be more accurate to do so without chasing those less authentic
          >>> away.
          >
          > A good goal.
          > Be as authentic as you can but have fun doing so.
          >
          >>>With respect to bows;
          >>>At 20 feet a fiberglass recurve can look authentic
          >
          > I have a green fiberglass "lonmg"bow with rubber nocktips that someone
          > had covered with brown tape to resemble wood. It's a cute bow that I
          > can take into the desert without fearing breakage, rot or termites.
          > So I brought it us in passing.
          >
          >>>Also one of the great barriers to authenticity can be cost, the closer you
          >>> get to museum quality the higher the outlay. I have no artistic talent
          >>> at all (I can't draw a straight line with a ruler and a pencil) so for me
          >>> to make a period bow is out of the question. However I can afford to
          >>> purchase period longbows so I do.
          >
          > Back when.. I could do neither. BUT I did own a wood self-bow with
          > cut-out arrow rest back in 1972. found it at a swap meet for $4.
          > Today I can afford to buy (and with the internet, inexpensive
          > long-bows are far more affordable today than they were 20 years ago)
          > but still cannot make the bow. Though I can and do make my own arrows
          > and am experimenting with making strings.
          >
          > So I can grasp the rules about fiberglass recurve bows and wood v
          > aluminum arrows... I may not agree with them. And i can argue for and
          > against them... But I still suspect that some were a personal belief
          > rule and not practical or safety rule.
          >
          > BTW, not one of the bows i ever made would be considered to be 'safe'.
          > I can make almost anything else you can imagine but I suck at
          > tempering steel and making a bow!
          >
          > On 9/23/13, Robert Sandusky <rdsandusky@...> wrote:
          >> First I think you have to remember that the SCA is not a reenacting
          >> organization (I'm a reenactor so I'm not bashing reenacting
          >> organizations)
          >> with strict historical standards.  If it was about 75% of the current
          >> members would not be allowed out to play.  And quite honestly, having
          >> study
          >> combat fighting with swords from historical treatise, our heavy fights
          >> nor
          >> fencers aren't even close to the real thing.
          >>
          >> Having flirted with the SCA in the 70s when elves, etc were all the rage
          >> the
          >> SCA has definitely moved closer to historical accuracy but it still isn't
          >> a
          >> requirement.
          >>
          >> We aren't (to use a CW Reenacting term) stitch Nazis.
          >>
          >> With that said, we have moved a whole lot closer and encourage those who
          >> want to be more accurate to do so without chasing those less authentic
          >> away.
          >>
          >> With respect to bows;
          >> 1. At 20 feet a fiberglass recurve can look authentic
          >> 2. A compound can't
          >> 3. a PVC one can't
          >> Also one of the great barriers to authenticity can be cost, the closer
          >> you
          >> get to museum quality the higher the outlay.  I have no artistic talent
          >> at
          >> all (I can't draw a straight line with a ruler and a pencil) so for me to
          >> make a period bow is out of the question.  However I can afford to
          >> purchase
          >> period longbows so I do.
          >>
          >> But what about those who can't make or purchase one?  Do we tell them no?
          >>
          >> I try to be as authentic as I am comfortable with (no need to die of
          >> black
          >> plague to prove my authenticity) and will push the edge of the envelope
          >> when
          >> I want to and set a new standard for myself.
          >>
          >> My standards for my archery range?  Have something that looks like it
          >> might
          >> have been used before 1650 (from 20 feet away), be safe and DON'T be a
          >> jerk.
          >>
          >> Yours in Service;
          >>
          >> Robert the Tall
          >> Deputy Archery Marshal - Shire of Owlsherst - East Kingdom
          >>
          >>
          >> ________________________________
          >> From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
          >> To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 1:27 PM
          >> Subject: [SCA-Archery] what is allowed and where
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> The Rules may seem to be capricious and inconsistant and may
          >> ocasionally reflect the prejudices and finances of the Marshall...
          >>
          >> .... wood-&-fiberglass laminate bows with a cut-out arrow-shelf are
          >> allowed.
          >> .....wood self-bows are encouraged.
          >> .....Composite (wood laminate) bows are allowed
          >> .....Compound bows (pullys) are not!
          >> ..... PVC bows are not.
          >> .....What about 100% fiberglass bows that look more Period than
          >> recurves???
          >>
          >> .....Wood arrows are required
          >> .....aluminun and synthetics are not.
          >> .....aluminun arrows with feathers are ?????
          >> .....wood arrows with plastic vanes are????
          >>
          >> .....dacron bowstrings are allowed
          >>
          >> .....add-on arrow shelf are tolorated.
          >>
          >> .....wood yumi self-bows are allowed.
          >>
          >> Some of these are SCA Rules, some Kingdom Rules and some are Event Rules.
          >> I suspect that modern fiberglass recurves with shelfs are allowed
          >> becuase when that rule was made, jno one could find or afford a
          >> Period-looking bow!
          >> I suspect that PVC bows are banned simply because they may be fun to
          >> make, they just look tacky<g>. Compound bows are too modern so are
          >> banned.
          >> Dacron bowstrings will always be allowed for safety!
          >>
          >> So I suspect that in at least some cases, the Rules were made to
          >> encourage Authenticity, in other cases financial reasons made the Rule
          >> and in some, personal prejudices.
          >>
          >> (note that I've seen some PVC horse-bows that easily passed the
          >> 20'-rule and some fiberglass recurves that just looked... well let's
          >> end there.)
          >>
          >> --
          >> Rick Johnson
          >> http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
          >> "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
          >> security will soon find that they have neither."
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          > --
          > Rick Johnson
          > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
          > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
          > security will soon find that they have neither."
          >


          --
          Rick Johnson
          http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
          "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
          security will soon find that they have neither."
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