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Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

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  • Janyn Fletcher
    Symon, anytime! I agree whole heartedly with you. Also shooting a period bow takes much more skill and practice to master. As an English longbow owner now
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 4 7:28 PM
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      Symon, anytime! I agree whole heartedly with you. Also shooting a period bow takes much more skill and practice to master. As an English longbow owner now myself, I can honestly say this :)
       
      Janyn
       

      From: ater seraph <ater_seraph@...>
      To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 6:40 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
       
      Thank you for your reply Janyn !

      I wish AnTir would learn from your Kingdom's example. Modern recurves and european style longbows should not be shooting against each other in a classification that is supposed to be "period." Unfortunately, they can here. Thank you again for your reply.

      In Service,

      Symon

      From: Janyn Fletcher <janynfletcher@...>
      To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:09 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
       
      Here in atlantia period bows are just that. No modern takedowns or recurves that are center cut. We do allow additional shelves if they are of a period style such as bone, leather attached, etc. In my opinion what you are describing is in fact traditional but should not be confused with period. We do allow recurves, longbows reflex-deflex and traditional "D" shape and even take down versions of these. They don't fall into the period class, they stay in their respective recurve / longbow classes.
       
      Janyn
       

      From: David <ater_seraph@...>
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:55 PM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
       
      Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.? YIS, Symon Bearo (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
    • Bernhard Rohrer
      ... This is interesting. that should allow the Korean horsebows that have a small cutout which is only an arrow rest but not a sight window, since it is too
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 5 2:42 AM
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        > o Full or partial center cut sight windows.

        This is interesting. that should allow the Korean horsebows that have a small cutout which is only an arrow rest but not a sight window, since it is too small. I still have my doubts about the periodness of this though.

        /Arpad
        --
      • Carolus
        You have just pointed out the biggest problem with SCA rules. We are3 constantly dealing with the I haven t seen it. or I don t know of any. issues We
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 6 1:20 PM
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          You have just pointed out the biggest problem with SCA rules.  We are3 constantly dealing with the "I haven't seen it." or "I don't know of any." issues  We also have to deal with the "Everybody Knows..." situation in which everyone does not know and what they think they know is completely wrong but it is common belief.
          Carolus
          On 7/4/2013 3:35 PM, brotherjohn66 wrote:
           

          Hello All:

          This is just my 2 cents worth(inflation, you know).
          Symon is, imo, correct that the period bow category ought to include only bows that are actually period. I have never seen a period bow from any primary source that has an arrow shelf/rest. I'm not saying they didn't exist, I just don't know of any. If anyone out there can document them, I'd appreciate it, because we should all be open to learning new things. I don't think Symon is saying that that period bows are less accurate, just that they are more difficult to master. And that, again in my opinion, does give the modern recurve user a distinct advantage, at least at first. Ergo, having a separate category for truly period equipment makes sense. And allowing modern bows to compete in this category does not make sense.

          Sincerely,
          John

          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "David" <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
          >
          > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
          >
          > YIS,
          >
          > Symon Bearo
          >
          > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
          >


        • Carolus
          What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes more of a difference than the archer. I have found that this only applies until the
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 6 1:24 PM
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            What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes more of a difference than the archer.  I have found that this only applies until the archers achieve a
            moderate skill level then the skill overcomes the equipment.
            Carolus

            On 7/4/2013 3:38 PM, ater seraph wrote:
             
            Thank you for your reply Taillear:

            Here is why I find the situation sad: If I am using an English style Longbow with no arrow rests and not recurved, a person that is using a modern recurve wood/fiberglass bow with an arrow shelf can be entered in the Traditional catagory along with me and compete. That is what is sad. There is nothing period looking, in spirit or otherwise, about a modern wood/fiberglass recurve bow that has an arrow shelf. The only thing that comes close is a steppes style Horse bow, which is recurved and is period. Thusly, it takes more skill to use a bow that is recurved, and where you must shoot off of your hand. That was my point about the disadvantage. Arrow shelves being a modern convention, I have seen no period documentation for an arrow rest, or a european bow that was recurved like the modern ones. I agree that it is no less accurate, just not as efficient, the bow flexing along the whole length as opposed to mainly the ends, as in a modern recurve style. I just would like to see in my Kingdom the seperation of those kind of bows, since they are decidedly NOT period, or period looking. Thank you for your reply.

            In Service,

            Symon


            From: Guy Taylor <greenmanarrows@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 12:27 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

             
            "...and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for
            the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY
            modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
            "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a
            medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a
            decided disadvantage."

            Without actually trying to answer your questions, I do have an
            observation and a question that you have raised in my mind.
            Question: Why do you find it sad that any wood bow is considered "period?"
            Observation: The term stickbow can be lent to a generic wood bow, not
            just an ELB style bow. And, why do you feel that using an ELB puts the
            archer at a decided disadvantage? More difficult to learn, yes. Less
            accurate, not in the least.

            Taillear

            On 7/4/13, David <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
            > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different,
            > ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow
            > classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is
            > considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the
            > least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
            > "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval
            > style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided
            > disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I
            > was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or
            > stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
            >
            > YIS,
            >
            > Symon Bearo
            >
            > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
            >
            >

            --
            The Greenman Archery <http://www.greenmanarchery.com/index.html> Website
            Fine custom wood arrows for traditional archers.



          • The Greys
            Carolus - Nail head. SMACK!!! Dead on! I have always believed that a champion s shoot should test the skill of an archer so that the true champion prevails.
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 7 3:38 PM
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              Carolus - Nail head. SMACK!!! Dead on! I have always believed that a champion's shoot should test the skill of an archer so that the true champion prevails. Thus in our baronial champion shoots I have designed and conducted I have things like shooting with unfamiliar equipment, I provide the bow and arrows for one portion of the shoot. At Southern Atlantian Archery Day, SAAD for short, I believe archers of all skill levels should be able to score some points. Thus I set shooting stations that are not as tough but have a few to separate out and challenge the better archers.

              But can we be reasonable here? How many of us have seen pictures of aborigine folks shooting compound bows with sights, release mechanisms, balancers, string silencers, carbon shafted arrows, et al? Yeah, I haven't either. And yet amazingly these folks are able to feed their families from what they kill with basically a bent stick with a string on it. And yet we hear of modern "hunters" missing shots on a deer.

              Longbows are slightly more difficult to master than modern recurves. But practice, practice, practice makes a HUGE difference in the results. Do we not read about archers in period that could hit the heart of a man sized target at 100 or more yards or shoot through the open visor of a French knight?

              Thus it is NOT the equipment but the "operator" that makes the difference. Carolus, right on!

              cog

              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
              >
              > What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes
              > more of a difference than the archer. I have found that this only
              > applies until the archers achieve a
              > moderate skill level then the skill overcomes the equipment.
              > Carolus
            • Ronald Klick
              Greetings fellow archers,   The answers are availability, and the quest for high scores! The Aborigine use what is available, what they can make themselves,
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 9 4:11 AM
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                Greetings fellow archers,
                 
                The answers are availability, and the quest for high scores! The Aborigine use what is available, what they can make themselves, it is what the know and what they are good at. Much like the ELB in period, they trained with it from a young age. many of us do not get enough practice time as it is. Some can afford Blackwidows, and they are mostly not likely to let them go in favor of lower scores with a period bow. I shoot a "vintage" Stemmler Turk hunting bow, which I've owned for forty years now. I also teach kids at camp, and run practices where SCA youth can shoot IKAC rounds in the three "Youth" Divisions. I quite often shoot their equipment so that I have a feel for it when teaching. (its a lot of fun to challenge another adult to shooting these light bows and arrows at novelty shoots at events!!) I do not think archers are measured by their skill in some cases, but their skill with a specific set of premium tools. Problem is how to get the most Elite on the RR list to take the lead with Period equipment.
                 
                Osmond de Berwic

                From: The Greys <cogworks@...>
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2013 6:38 PM
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Kingdom Bow Catagories
                 
                Carolus - Nail head. SMACK!!! Dead on! I have always believed that a champion's shoot should test the skill of an archer so that the true champion prevails. Thus in our baronial champion shoots I have designed and conducted I have things like shooting with unfamiliar equipment, I provide the bow and arrows for one portion of the shoot. At Southern Atlantian Archery Day, SAAD for short, I believe archers of all skill levels should be able to score some points. Thus I set shooting stations that are not as tough but have a few to separate out and challenge the better archers.

                But can we be reasonable here? How many of us have seen pictures of aborigine folks shooting compound bows with sights, release mechanisms, balancers, string silencers, carbon shafted arrows, et al? Yeah, I haven't either. And yet amazingly these folks are able to feed their families from what they kill with basically a bent stick with a string on it. And yet we hear of modern "hunters" missing shots on a deer.

                Longbows are slightly more difficult to master than modern recurves. But practice, practice, practice makes a HUGE difference in the results. Do we not read about archers in period that could hit the heart of a man sized target at 100 or more yards or shoot through the open visor of a French knight?

                Thus it is NOT the equipment but the "operator" that makes the difference. Carolus, right on!

                cog

                --- In mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                >
                > What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes
                > more of a difference than the archer. I have found that this only
                > applies until the archers achieve a
                > moderate skill level then the skill overcomes the equipment.
                > Carolus

              • Groff, Garth (ggg9y)
                M’Lord Osmond, Greetings. The easiest way to spread period archery is to lead by example. That’s what I’m trying to do. Throwing down challenges is
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 9 9:52 AM
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                  M’Lord Osmond, Greetings.

                   

                  The easiest way to spread period archery is to lead by example. That’s what I’m trying to do.

                   

                  Throwing down challenges is another way. Make others want to prove themselves with period equipment.

                   

                  And teach, teach, teach. Make your students curious. Set easy goals at first. I just taught a University class on making simple target-weight period-style arrows. I will teach this again at Pennsic. At least a few of my students are going to try making these arrows, and one or two may take up a period bow as well.

                   

                  We can’t beat anybody with a stick to make them want to try. Tempting, but probably futile.

                   

                  Yours Aye,

                   

                  Lord Mungo Napier, The Archer of Mallard Lodge

                  Read “The Tale of Mungo Napier”:

                  http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/napier1.html

                   

                   

                   

                  From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Klick
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 7:11 AM
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Kingdom Bow Catagories

                   


                  On 7/9/13 Lord Osmond wrote:

                  I do not think archers are measured by their skill in some cases, but their skill with a specific set of premium tools. Problem is how to get the most Elite on the RR list to take the lead with Period equipment.

                   

                  Osmond de Berwic

                   

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