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Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

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  • Guy Taylor
    ...and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered Period for the Traditional category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve,
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
      "...and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for
      the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY
      modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
      "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a
      medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a
      decided disadvantage."

      Without actually trying to answer your questions, I do have an
      observation and a question that you have raised in my mind.
      Question: Why do you find it sad that any wood bow is considered "period?"
      Observation: The term stickbow can be lent to a generic wood bow, not
      just an ELB style bow. And, why do you feel that using an ELB puts the
      archer at a decided disadvantage? More difficult to learn, yes. Less
      accurate, not in the least.

      Taillear

      On 7/4/13, David <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
      > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different,
      > ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow
      > classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is
      > considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the
      > least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
      > "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval
      > style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided
      > disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I
      > was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or
      > stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
      >
      > YIS,
      >
      > Symon Bearo
      >
      > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
      >
      >


      --
      The Greenman Archery <http://www.greenmanarchery.com/index.html> Website
      Fine custom wood arrows for traditional archers.
    • Janyn Fletcher
      Here in atlantia period bows are just that. No modern takedowns or recurves that are center cut. We do allow additional shelves if they are of a period style
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
        Here in atlantia period bows are just that. No modern takedowns or recurves that are center cut. We do allow additional shelves if they are of a period style such as bone, leather attached, etc. In my opinion what you are describing is in fact traditional but should not be confused with period. We do allow recurves, longbows reflex-deflex and traditional "D" shape and even take down versions of these. They don't fall into the period class, they stay in their respective recurve / longbow classes.
         
        Janyn
         

        From: David <ater_seraph@...>
        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:55 PM
        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
         
        Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

        YIS,

        Symon Bearo

        (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum

      • brotherjohn66
        Hello All: This is just my 2 cents worth(inflation, you know). Symon is, imo, correct that the period bow category ought to include only bows that are actually
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
          Hello All:

          This is just my 2 cents worth(inflation, you know).
          Symon is, imo, correct that the period bow category ought to include only bows that are actually period. I have never seen a period bow from any primary source that has an arrow shelf/rest. I'm not saying they didn't exist, I just don't know of any. If anyone out there can document them, I'd appreciate it, because we should all be open to learning new things. I don't think Symon is saying that that period bows are less accurate, just that they are more difficult to master. And that, again in my opinion, does give the modern recurve user a distinct advantage, at least at first. Ergo, having a separate category for truly period equipment makes sense. And allowing modern bows to compete in this category does not make sense.

          Sincerely,
          John

          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "David" <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
          >
          > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
          >
          > YIS,
          >
          > Symon Bearo
          >
          > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
          >
        • ater seraph
          Thank you for your reply Taillear: Here is why I find the situation sad: If I am using an English style Longbow with no arrow rests and not recurved, a person
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
            Thank you for your reply Taillear:

            Here is why I find the situation sad: If I am using an English style Longbow with no arrow rests and not recurved, a person that is using a modern recurve wood/fiberglass bow with an arrow shelf can be entered in the Traditional catagory along with me and compete. That is what is sad. There is nothing period looking, in spirit or otherwise, about a modern wood/fiberglass recurve bow that has an arrow shelf. The only thing that comes close is a steppes style Horse bow, which is recurved and is period. Thusly, it takes more skill to use a bow that is recurved, and where you must shoot off of your hand. That was my point about the disadvantage. Arrow shelves being a modern convention, I have seen no period documentation for an arrow rest, or a european bow that was recurved like the modern ones. I agree that it is no less accurate, just not as efficient, the bow flexing along the whole length as opposed to mainly the ends, as in a modern recurve style. I just would like to see in my Kingdom the seperation of those kind of bows, since they are decidedly NOT period, or period looking. Thank you for your reply.

            In Service,

            Symon


            From: Guy Taylor <greenmanarrows@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 12:27 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

             
            "...and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for
            the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY
            modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
            "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a
            medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a
            decided disadvantage."

            Without actually trying to answer your questions, I do have an
            observation and a question that you have raised in my mind.
            Question: Why do you find it sad that any wood bow is considered "period?"
            Observation: The term stickbow can be lent to a generic wood bow, not
            just an ELB style bow. And, why do you feel that using an ELB puts the
            archer at a decided disadvantage? More difficult to learn, yes. Less
            accurate, not in the least.

            Taillear

            On 7/4/13, David <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
            > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different,
            > ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow
            > classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is
            > considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the
            > least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
            > "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval
            > style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided
            > disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I
            > was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or
            > stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
            >
            > YIS,
            >
            > Symon Bearo
            >
            > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
            >
            >

            --
            The Greenman Archery <http://www.greenmanarchery.com/index.html> Website
            Fine custom wood arrows for traditional archers.


          • ater seraph
            Thank you for your reply Janyn ! I wish AnTir would learn from your Kingdom s example. Modern recurves and european style longbows should not be shooting
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
              Thank you for your reply Janyn !

              I wish AnTir would learn from your Kingdom's example. Modern recurves and european style longbows should not be shooting against each other in a classification that is supposed to be "period." Unfortunately, they can here. Thank you again for your reply.

              In Service,

              Symon


              From: Janyn Fletcher <janynfletcher@...>
              To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:09 PM
              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

               
              Here in atlantia period bows are just that. No modern takedowns or recurves that are center cut. We do allow additional shelves if they are of a period style such as bone, leather attached, etc. In my opinion what you are describing is in fact traditional but should not be confused with period. We do allow recurves, longbows reflex-deflex and traditional "D" shape and even take down versions of these. They don't fall into the period class, they stay in their respective recurve / longbow classes.
               
              Janyn
               

              From: David <ater_seraph@...>
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:55 PM
              Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
               
              Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

              YIS,

              Symon Bearo

              (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum



            • alzdarsky
              I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/o nt arget    I believe that you will find
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013

                I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/ontarget   I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.

                Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS


                From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                 

                Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                YIS,

                Symon Bearo

                (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum

              • brotherjohn66
                I am not disagreeing with this, I just have a question. The An Tir Book of Target prohibits non-period arrow rests . Are there any period arrow rests? I m not
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                  I am not disagreeing with this, I just have a question. The An Tir Book of Target prohibits "non-period arrow rests". Are there any period arrow rests? I'm not trying to be a wise-A$$, I just want to know. I also am new to SCA archery, and I am trying to expand my knowledge base.

                  John

                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, zateev@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/o nt arget    I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.
                  >
                  >
                  > Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  >
                  >
                  > From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                  > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                  > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
                  >
                  > YIS,
                  >
                  > Symon Bearo
                  >
                  > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
                  >
                • ater seraph
                  Greetings Aleksei: I DID read it, and have it here. I am posting a copy of the section that you mentioned. It seems pretty clear, that a modern style recurve
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                    Greetings Aleksei:

                    I DID read it, and have it here. I am posting a copy of the section that you mentioned. It seems pretty clear, that a modern style recurve bow shoots in the period catagory, as long as they are using the correct arrow types. How do the rest of you see it? 

                    Symon

                    c. Handbows
                    i. Recurve: Any bow with recurved limb ends and a cutout sight window. 
                    Includes bows with only slightly recurved limb ends and cutout sight 
                    windows, where the string does not touch or only slightly touches the 
                    recurved portion of the limb. Includes bows modeled on the Asian style 
                    recurves characterized by static recurved limb tips, or Siyahs, with or 
                    without a cutout sight window.
                    ii. Longbow: Any bow with straight limbs or slightly recurved limb ends, 
                    with or without a cutout sight window, where the bowstring does not 
                    touch or only slightly touches the limb ends. Modern longbows having 
                    an arrow shelf built into the bow are, by definition, longbows.
                    d. Crossbows: Any bow meeting the crossbow equipment standards in D.4. 
                    Crossbows may be shot from any position consistent with safety standards. No 
                    artificial supports may be used.
                    e. Period bow: A handbow or crossbow that conforms in spirit and/or actuality to 
                    bows common during the time period covered by the SCA. 
                    i. The following are prohibited: 
                    o Full or partial center cut sight windows.
                    o Limb marks or sighting aids.
                    o Non-period arrow rests.
                    o Take down bows.


                    From: "zateev@..." <zateev@...>
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:05 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                     
                    I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/ontarget   I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.
                    Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS

                    From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                     
                    Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                    YIS,

                    Symon Bearo

                    (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum



                  • John Edgerton
                    I just read that section and am glad to learn that Symon was incorrect in his interpretation of the Antir archery rules.  Jon ... I just read that section
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                      I just read that section and am glad to learn that Symon was incorrect in his interpretation of the Antir archery rules. 

                      Jon


                      From: "zateev@..." <zateev@...>
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:05 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                       
                      I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/ontarget   I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.
                      Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS

                      From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                       
                      Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                      YIS,

                      Symon Bearo

                      (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum



                    • John Edgerton
                      To me it seems clear that modern style recurve bows are allowed to shoot.  However, they under the rules they do not fall in the Period category.  Also, in
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                        To me it seems clear that modern style recurve bows are allowed to shoot.  However, they under the rules they do not fall in the Period category
                        Also, in reading the rules I saw no mention of a "traditional" category that you mentioned. 

                        "e. Period bow: A handbow or crossbow that conforms in spirit and/or actuality to 
                        bows common during the time period covered by the SCA. 
                        i. The following are prohibited: 
                        o Full or partial center cut sight windows.
                        o Limb marks or sighting aids.
                        o Non-period arrow rests.
                        o Take down bows.

                        Jon


                        From: ater seraph <ater_seraph@...>
                        To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:22 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                         
                        Greetings Aleksei:

                        I DID read it, and have it here. I am posting a copy of the section that you mentioned. It seems pretty clear, that a modern style recurve bow shoots in the period catagory, as long as they are using the correct arrow types. How do the rest of you see it? 

                        Symon

                        c. Handbows
                        i. Recurve: Any bow with recurved limb ends and a cutout sight window. 
                        Includes bows with only slightly recurved limb ends and cutout sight 
                        windows, where the string does not touch or only slightly touches the 
                        recurved portion of the limb. Includes bows modeled on the Asian style 
                        recurves characterized by static recurved limb tips, or Siyahs, with or 
                        without a cutout sight window.
                        ii. Longbow: Any bow with straight limbs or slightly recurved limb ends, 
                        with or without a cutout sight window, where the bowstring does not 
                        touch or only slightly touches the limb ends. Modern longbows having 
                        an arrow shelf built into the bow are, by definition, longbows.
                        d. Crossbows: Any bow meeting the crossbow equipment standards in D.4. 
                        Crossbows may be shot from any position consistent with safety standards. No 
                        artificial supports may be used.
                        e. Period bow: A handbow or crossbow that conforms in spirit and/or actuality to 
                        bows common during the time period covered by the SCA. 
                        i. The following are prohibited: 
                        o Full or partial center cut sight windows.
                        o Limb marks or sighting aids.
                        o Non-period arrow rests.
                        o Take down bows.


                        From: "zateev@..." <zateev@...>
                        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:05 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                         
                        I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/ontarget   I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.
                        Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS

                        From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                         
                        Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                        YIS,

                        Symon Bearo

                        (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum





                      • Chris Ivins
                        Thank you for the explanation, Sir Jon, I was playing catch-up with the posts and was about to comment on that, when I saw your post and quote of the rules.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                          Thank you for the explanation, Sir Jon, I was playing catch-up with the posts and was about to comment on that, when I saw your post and quote of the rules. Also, the last two comments apply to about 80-90% of the modern recurves:

                          "o Non-period arrow rests.
                          o Take down bows."

                          which would mean that it is not true that "...ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional",..." (or Period)


                          Symon, if you are referring to this section,
                          "i. Recurve: Any bow with recurved limb ends and a cutout sight window. 
                          Includes bows with only slightly recurved limb ends and cutout sight 
                          windows, where the string does not touch or only slightly touches the 
                          recurved portion of the limb. Includes bows modeled on the Asian style 
                          recurves characterized by static recurved limb tips, or Siyahs, with or 
                          without a cutout sight window.", that is only the definition of a Recurve in the Handbow category, not saying that it is a Period bow.


                          I am a relatively new archery shooter, I have only been doing so for a little over a year, and I am still learning a lot of the basics and rules as a Jr. TAM, and your questions made me look back through the rules and double-check, and if something looks questionable, it is always good to ask questions and be sure!

                          - IS,
                                  Iurii Levchenich
                                  Jr, TAM, Deputy to HL Johanna Trewpeny, Archery Marshal of Adiantum
                                  Arcuarius to Gawin of Kevelioc



                          From: John Edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                          To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:33 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories



                          To me it seems clear that modern style recurve bows are allowed to shoot.  However, they under the rules they do not fall in the Period category
                          Also, in reading the rules I saw no mention of a "traditional" category that you mentioned. 

                          "e. Period bow: A handbow or crossbow that conforms in spirit and/or actuality to 
                          bows common during the time period covered by the SCA. 
                          i. The following are prohibited: 
                          o Full or partial center cut sight windows.
                          o Limb marks or sighting aids.
                          o Non-period arrow rests.
                          o Take down bows.

                          Jon


                          From: ater seraph <ater_seraph@...>
                          To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:22 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                           
                          Greetings Aleksei:

                          I DID read it, and have it here. I am posting a copy of the section that you mentioned. It seems pretty clear, that a modern style recurve bow shoots in the period catagory, as long as they are using the correct arrow types. How do the rest of you see it? 

                          Symon

                          c. Handbows
                          i. Recurve: Any bow with recurved limb ends and a cutout sight window. 
                          Includes bows with only slightly recurved limb ends and cutout sight 
                          windows, where the string does not touch or only slightly touches the 
                          recurved portion of the limb. Includes bows modeled on the Asian style 
                          recurves characterized by static recurved limb tips, or Siyahs, with or 
                          without a cutout sight window.
                          ii. Longbow: Any bow with straight limbs or slightly recurved limb ends, 
                          with or without a cutout sight window, where the bowstring does not 
                          touch or only slightly touches the limb ends. Modern longbows having 
                          an arrow shelf built into the bow are, by definition, longbows.
                          d. Crossbows: Any bow meeting the crossbow equipment standards in D.4. 
                          Crossbows may be shot from any position consistent with safety standards. No 
                          artificial supports may be used.
                          e. Period bow: A handbow or crossbow that conforms in spirit and/or actuality to 
                          bows common during the time period covered by the SCA. 
                          i. The following are prohibited: 
                          o Full or partial center cut sight windows.
                          o Limb marks or sighting aids.
                          o Non-period arrow rests.
                          o Take down bows.


                          From: "zateev@..." <zateev@...>
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:05 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                           
                          I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/ontarget   I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.
                          Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS

                          From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                           
                          Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                          YIS,

                          Symon Bearo

                          (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum









                        • Janyn Fletcher
                          Symon, anytime! I agree whole heartedly with you. Also shooting a period bow takes much more skill and practice to master. As an English longbow owner now
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                            Symon, anytime! I agree whole heartedly with you. Also shooting a period bow takes much more skill and practice to master. As an English longbow owner now myself, I can honestly say this :)
                             
                            Janyn
                             

                            From: ater seraph <ater_seraph@...>
                            To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 6:40 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
                             
                            Thank you for your reply Janyn !

                            I wish AnTir would learn from your Kingdom's example. Modern recurves and european style longbows should not be shooting against each other in a classification that is supposed to be "period." Unfortunately, they can here. Thank you again for your reply.

                            In Service,

                            Symon

                            From: Janyn Fletcher <janynfletcher@...>
                            To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:09 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
                             
                            Here in atlantia period bows are just that. No modern takedowns or recurves that are center cut. We do allow additional shelves if they are of a period style such as bone, leather attached, etc. In my opinion what you are describing is in fact traditional but should not be confused with period. We do allow recurves, longbows reflex-deflex and traditional "D" shape and even take down versions of these. They don't fall into the period class, they stay in their respective recurve / longbow classes.
                             
                            Janyn
                             

                            From: David <ater_seraph@...>
                            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:55 PM
                            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
                             
                            Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.? YIS, Symon Bearo (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
                          • Bernhard Rohrer
                            ... This is interesting. that should allow the Korean horsebows that have a small cutout which is only an arrow rest but not a sight window, since it is too
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 5, 2013
                              > o Full or partial center cut sight windows.

                              This is interesting. that should allow the Korean horsebows that have a small cutout which is only an arrow rest but not a sight window, since it is too small. I still have my doubts about the periodness of this though.

                              /Arpad
                              --
                            • Carolus
                              You have just pointed out the biggest problem with SCA rules. We are3 constantly dealing with the I haven t seen it. or I don t know of any. issues We
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 6, 2013
                                You have just pointed out the biggest problem with SCA rules.  We are3 constantly dealing with the "I haven't seen it." or "I don't know of any." issues  We also have to deal with the "Everybody Knows..." situation in which everyone does not know and what they think they know is completely wrong but it is common belief.
                                Carolus
                                On 7/4/2013 3:35 PM, brotherjohn66 wrote:
                                 

                                Hello All:

                                This is just my 2 cents worth(inflation, you know).
                                Symon is, imo, correct that the period bow category ought to include only bows that are actually period. I have never seen a period bow from any primary source that has an arrow shelf/rest. I'm not saying they didn't exist, I just don't know of any. If anyone out there can document them, I'd appreciate it, because we should all be open to learning new things. I don't think Symon is saying that that period bows are less accurate, just that they are more difficult to master. And that, again in my opinion, does give the modern recurve user a distinct advantage, at least at first. Ergo, having a separate category for truly period equipment makes sense. And allowing modern bows to compete in this category does not make sense.

                                Sincerely,
                                John

                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "David" <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
                                >
                                > YIS,
                                >
                                > Symon Bearo
                                >
                                > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
                                >


                              • Carolus
                                What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes more of a difference than the archer. I have found that this only applies until the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 6, 2013
                                  What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes more of a difference than the archer.  I have found that this only applies until the archers achieve a
                                  moderate skill level then the skill overcomes the equipment.
                                  Carolus

                                  On 7/4/2013 3:38 PM, ater seraph wrote:
                                   
                                  Thank you for your reply Taillear:

                                  Here is why I find the situation sad: If I am using an English style Longbow with no arrow rests and not recurved, a person that is using a modern recurve wood/fiberglass bow with an arrow shelf can be entered in the Traditional catagory along with me and compete. That is what is sad. There is nothing period looking, in spirit or otherwise, about a modern wood/fiberglass recurve bow that has an arrow shelf. The only thing that comes close is a steppes style Horse bow, which is recurved and is period. Thusly, it takes more skill to use a bow that is recurved, and where you must shoot off of your hand. That was my point about the disadvantage. Arrow shelves being a modern convention, I have seen no period documentation for an arrow rest, or a european bow that was recurved like the modern ones. I agree that it is no less accurate, just not as efficient, the bow flexing along the whole length as opposed to mainly the ends, as in a modern recurve style. I just would like to see in my Kingdom the seperation of those kind of bows, since they are decidedly NOT period, or period looking. Thank you for your reply.

                                  In Service,

                                  Symon


                                  From: Guy Taylor <greenmanarrows@...>
                                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 12:27 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                                   
                                  "...and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for
                                  the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY
                                  modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
                                  "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a
                                  medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a
                                  decided disadvantage."

                                  Without actually trying to answer your questions, I do have an
                                  observation and a question that you have raised in my mind.
                                  Question: Why do you find it sad that any wood bow is considered "period?"
                                  Observation: The term stickbow can be lent to a generic wood bow, not
                                  just an ELB style bow. And, why do you feel that using an ELB puts the
                                  archer at a decided disadvantage? More difficult to learn, yes. Less
                                  accurate, not in the least.

                                  Taillear

                                  On 7/4/13, David <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
                                  > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different,
                                  > ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow
                                  > classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is
                                  > considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the
                                  > least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
                                  > "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval
                                  > style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided
                                  > disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I
                                  > was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or
                                  > stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
                                  >
                                  > YIS,
                                  >
                                  > Symon Bearo
                                  >
                                  > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --
                                  The Greenman Archery <http://www.greenmanarchery.com/index.html> Website
                                  Fine custom wood arrows for traditional archers.



                                • The Greys
                                  Carolus - Nail head. SMACK!!! Dead on! I have always believed that a champion s shoot should test the skill of an archer so that the true champion prevails.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 7, 2013
                                    Carolus - Nail head. SMACK!!! Dead on! I have always believed that a champion's shoot should test the skill of an archer so that the true champion prevails. Thus in our baronial champion shoots I have designed and conducted I have things like shooting with unfamiliar equipment, I provide the bow and arrows for one portion of the shoot. At Southern Atlantian Archery Day, SAAD for short, I believe archers of all skill levels should be able to score some points. Thus I set shooting stations that are not as tough but have a few to separate out and challenge the better archers.

                                    But can we be reasonable here? How many of us have seen pictures of aborigine folks shooting compound bows with sights, release mechanisms, balancers, string silencers, carbon shafted arrows, et al? Yeah, I haven't either. And yet amazingly these folks are able to feed their families from what they kill with basically a bent stick with a string on it. And yet we hear of modern "hunters" missing shots on a deer.

                                    Longbows are slightly more difficult to master than modern recurves. But practice, practice, practice makes a HUGE difference in the results. Do we not read about archers in period that could hit the heart of a man sized target at 100 or more yards or shoot through the open visor of a French knight?

                                    Thus it is NOT the equipment but the "operator" that makes the difference. Carolus, right on!

                                    cog

                                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes
                                    > more of a difference than the archer. I have found that this only
                                    > applies until the archers achieve a
                                    > moderate skill level then the skill overcomes the equipment.
                                    > Carolus
                                  • Ronald Klick
                                    Greetings fellow archers,   The answers are availability, and the quest for high scores! The Aborigine use what is available, what they can make themselves,
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                                      Greetings fellow archers,
                                       
                                      The answers are availability, and the quest for high scores! The Aborigine use what is available, what they can make themselves, it is what the know and what they are good at. Much like the ELB in period, they trained with it from a young age. many of us do not get enough practice time as it is. Some can afford Blackwidows, and they are mostly not likely to let them go in favor of lower scores with a period bow. I shoot a "vintage" Stemmler Turk hunting bow, which I've owned for forty years now. I also teach kids at camp, and run practices where SCA youth can shoot IKAC rounds in the three "Youth" Divisions. I quite often shoot their equipment so that I have a feel for it when teaching. (its a lot of fun to challenge another adult to shooting these light bows and arrows at novelty shoots at events!!) I do not think archers are measured by their skill in some cases, but their skill with a specific set of premium tools. Problem is how to get the most Elite on the RR list to take the lead with Period equipment.
                                       
                                      Osmond de Berwic

                                      From: The Greys <cogworks@...>
                                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2013 6:38 PM
                                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Kingdom Bow Catagories
                                       
                                      Carolus - Nail head. SMACK!!! Dead on! I have always believed that a champion's shoot should test the skill of an archer so that the true champion prevails. Thus in our baronial champion shoots I have designed and conducted I have things like shooting with unfamiliar equipment, I provide the bow and arrows for one portion of the shoot. At Southern Atlantian Archery Day, SAAD for short, I believe archers of all skill levels should be able to score some points. Thus I set shooting stations that are not as tough but have a few to separate out and challenge the better archers.

                                      But can we be reasonable here? How many of us have seen pictures of aborigine folks shooting compound bows with sights, release mechanisms, balancers, string silencers, carbon shafted arrows, et al? Yeah, I haven't either. And yet amazingly these folks are able to feed their families from what they kill with basically a bent stick with a string on it. And yet we hear of modern "hunters" missing shots on a deer.

                                      Longbows are slightly more difficult to master than modern recurves. But practice, practice, practice makes a HUGE difference in the results. Do we not read about archers in period that could hit the heart of a man sized target at 100 or more yards or shoot through the open visor of a French knight?

                                      Thus it is NOT the equipment but the "operator" that makes the difference. Carolus, right on!

                                      cog

                                      --- In mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes
                                      > more of a difference than the archer. I have found that this only
                                      > applies until the archers achieve a
                                      > moderate skill level then the skill overcomes the equipment.
                                      > Carolus

                                    • Groff, Garth (ggg9y)
                                      M’Lord Osmond, Greetings. The easiest way to spread period archery is to lead by example. That’s what I’m trying to do. Throwing down challenges is
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013

                                        M’Lord Osmond, Greetings.

                                         

                                        The easiest way to spread period archery is to lead by example. That’s what I’m trying to do.

                                         

                                        Throwing down challenges is another way. Make others want to prove themselves with period equipment.

                                         

                                        And teach, teach, teach. Make your students curious. Set easy goals at first. I just taught a University class on making simple target-weight period-style arrows. I will teach this again at Pennsic. At least a few of my students are going to try making these arrows, and one or two may take up a period bow as well.

                                         

                                        We can’t beat anybody with a stick to make them want to try. Tempting, but probably futile.

                                         

                                        Yours Aye,

                                         

                                        Lord Mungo Napier, The Archer of Mallard Lodge

                                        Read “The Tale of Mungo Napier”:

                                        http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/napier1.html

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Klick
                                        Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 7:11 AM
                                        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Kingdom Bow Catagories

                                         


                                        On 7/9/13 Lord Osmond wrote:

                                        I do not think archers are measured by their skill in some cases, but their skill with a specific set of premium tools. Problem is how to get the most Elite on the RR list to take the lead with Period equipment.

                                         

                                        Osmond de Berwic

                                         

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