Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Kingdom Bow Catagories

Expand Messages
  • David
    Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the Traditional or period longbow classification. I
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

      YIS,

      Symon Bearo

      (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
    • Guy Taylor
      ...and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered Period for the Traditional category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve,
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        "...and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for
        the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY
        modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
        "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a
        medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a
        decided disadvantage."

        Without actually trying to answer your questions, I do have an
        observation and a question that you have raised in my mind.
        Question: Why do you find it sad that any wood bow is considered "period?"
        Observation: The term stickbow can be lent to a generic wood bow, not
        just an ELB style bow. And, why do you feel that using an ELB puts the
        archer at a decided disadvantage? More difficult to learn, yes. Less
        accurate, not in the least.

        Taillear

        On 7/4/13, David <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
        > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different,
        > ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow
        > classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is
        > considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the
        > least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
        > "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval
        > style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided
        > disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I
        > was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or
        > stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
        >
        > YIS,
        >
        > Symon Bearo
        >
        > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
        >
        >


        --
        The Greenman Archery <http://www.greenmanarchery.com/index.html> Website
        Fine custom wood arrows for traditional archers.
      • Janyn Fletcher
        Here in atlantia period bows are just that. No modern takedowns or recurves that are center cut. We do allow additional shelves if they are of a period style
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Here in atlantia period bows are just that. No modern takedowns or recurves that are center cut. We do allow additional shelves if they are of a period style such as bone, leather attached, etc. In my opinion what you are describing is in fact traditional but should not be confused with period. We do allow recurves, longbows reflex-deflex and traditional "D" shape and even take down versions of these. They don't fall into the period class, they stay in their respective recurve / longbow classes.
           
          Janyn
           

          From: David <ater_seraph@...>
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:55 PM
          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
           
          Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

          YIS,

          Symon Bearo

          (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum

        • brotherjohn66
          Hello All: This is just my 2 cents worth(inflation, you know). Symon is, imo, correct that the period bow category ought to include only bows that are actually
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello All:

            This is just my 2 cents worth(inflation, you know).
            Symon is, imo, correct that the period bow category ought to include only bows that are actually period. I have never seen a period bow from any primary source that has an arrow shelf/rest. I'm not saying they didn't exist, I just don't know of any. If anyone out there can document them, I'd appreciate it, because we should all be open to learning new things. I don't think Symon is saying that that period bows are less accurate, just that they are more difficult to master. And that, again in my opinion, does give the modern recurve user a distinct advantage, at least at first. Ergo, having a separate category for truly period equipment makes sense. And allowing modern bows to compete in this category does not make sense.

            Sincerely,
            John

            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "David" <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
            >
            > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
            >
            > YIS,
            >
            > Symon Bearo
            >
            > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
            >
          • ater seraph
            Thank you for your reply Taillear: Here is why I find the situation sad: If I am using an English style Longbow with no arrow rests and not recurved, a person
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you for your reply Taillear:

              Here is why I find the situation sad: If I am using an English style Longbow with no arrow rests and not recurved, a person that is using a modern recurve wood/fiberglass bow with an arrow shelf can be entered in the Traditional catagory along with me and compete. That is what is sad. There is nothing period looking, in spirit or otherwise, about a modern wood/fiberglass recurve bow that has an arrow shelf. The only thing that comes close is a steppes style Horse bow, which is recurved and is period. Thusly, it takes more skill to use a bow that is recurved, and where you must shoot off of your hand. That was my point about the disadvantage. Arrow shelves being a modern convention, I have seen no period documentation for an arrow rest, or a european bow that was recurved like the modern ones. I agree that it is no less accurate, just not as efficient, the bow flexing along the whole length as opposed to mainly the ends, as in a modern recurve style. I just would like to see in my Kingdom the seperation of those kind of bows, since they are decidedly NOT period, or period looking. Thank you for your reply.

              In Service,

              Symon


              From: Guy Taylor <greenmanarrows@...>
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 12:27 PM
              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

               
              "...and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for
              the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY
              modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
              "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a
              medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a
              decided disadvantage."

              Without actually trying to answer your questions, I do have an
              observation and a question that you have raised in my mind.
              Question: Why do you find it sad that any wood bow is considered "period?"
              Observation: The term stickbow can be lent to a generic wood bow, not
              just an ELB style bow. And, why do you feel that using an ELB puts the
              archer at a decided disadvantage? More difficult to learn, yes. Less
              accurate, not in the least.

              Taillear

              On 7/4/13, David <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
              > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different,
              > ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow
              > classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is
              > considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the
              > least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
              > "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval
              > style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided
              > disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I
              > was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or
              > stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
              >
              > YIS,
              >
              > Symon Bearo
              >
              > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
              >
              >

              --
              The Greenman Archery <http://www.greenmanarchery.com/index.html> Website
              Fine custom wood arrows for traditional archers.


            • ater seraph
              Thank you for your reply Janyn ! I wish AnTir would learn from your Kingdom s example. Modern recurves and european style longbows should not be shooting
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Thank you for your reply Janyn !

                I wish AnTir would learn from your Kingdom's example. Modern recurves and european style longbows should not be shooting against each other in a classification that is supposed to be "period." Unfortunately, they can here. Thank you again for your reply.

                In Service,

                Symon


                From: Janyn Fletcher <janynfletcher@...>
                To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:09 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                 
                Here in atlantia period bows are just that. No modern takedowns or recurves that are center cut. We do allow additional shelves if they are of a period style such as bone, leather attached, etc. In my opinion what you are describing is in fact traditional but should not be confused with period. We do allow recurves, longbows reflex-deflex and traditional "D" shape and even take down versions of these. They don't fall into the period class, they stay in their respective recurve / longbow classes.
                 
                Janyn
                 

                From: David <ater_seraph@...>
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:55 PM
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
                 
                Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                YIS,

                Symon Bearo

                (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum



              • alzdarsky
                I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/o nt arget    I believe that you will find
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                • 0 Attachment

                  I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/ontarget   I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.

                  Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS


                  From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                  Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                   

                  Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                  YIS,

                  Symon Bearo

                  (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum

                • brotherjohn66
                  I am not disagreeing with this, I just have a question. The An Tir Book of Target prohibits non-period arrow rests . Are there any period arrow rests? I m not
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I am not disagreeing with this, I just have a question. The An Tir Book of Target prohibits "non-period arrow rests". Are there any period arrow rests? I'm not trying to be a wise-A$$, I just want to know. I also am new to SCA archery, and I am trying to expand my knowledge base.

                    John

                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, zateev@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/o nt arget    I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.
                    >
                    >
                    > Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    >
                    >
                    > From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                    > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                    > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
                    >
                    > YIS,
                    >
                    > Symon Bearo
                    >
                    > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
                    >
                  • ater seraph
                    Greetings Aleksei: I DID read it, and have it here. I am posting a copy of the section that you mentioned. It seems pretty clear, that a modern style recurve
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Greetings Aleksei:

                      I DID read it, and have it here. I am posting a copy of the section that you mentioned. It seems pretty clear, that a modern style recurve bow shoots in the period catagory, as long as they are using the correct arrow types. How do the rest of you see it? 

                      Symon

                      c. Handbows
                      i. Recurve: Any bow with recurved limb ends and a cutout sight window. 
                      Includes bows with only slightly recurved limb ends and cutout sight 
                      windows, where the string does not touch or only slightly touches the 
                      recurved portion of the limb. Includes bows modeled on the Asian style 
                      recurves characterized by static recurved limb tips, or Siyahs, with or 
                      without a cutout sight window.
                      ii. Longbow: Any bow with straight limbs or slightly recurved limb ends, 
                      with or without a cutout sight window, where the bowstring does not 
                      touch or only slightly touches the limb ends. Modern longbows having 
                      an arrow shelf built into the bow are, by definition, longbows.
                      d. Crossbows: Any bow meeting the crossbow equipment standards in D.4. 
                      Crossbows may be shot from any position consistent with safety standards. No 
                      artificial supports may be used.
                      e. Period bow: A handbow or crossbow that conforms in spirit and/or actuality to 
                      bows common during the time period covered by the SCA. 
                      i. The following are prohibited: 
                      o Full or partial center cut sight windows.
                      o Limb marks or sighting aids.
                      o Non-period arrow rests.
                      o Take down bows.


                      From: "zateev@..." <zateev@...>
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:05 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                       
                      I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/ontarget   I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.
                      Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS

                      From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                       
                      Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                      YIS,

                      Symon Bearo

                      (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum



                    • John Edgerton
                      I just read that section and am glad to learn that Symon was incorrect in his interpretation of the Antir archery rules.  Jon ... I just read that section
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I just read that section and am glad to learn that Symon was incorrect in his interpretation of the Antir archery rules. 

                        Jon


                        From: "zateev@..." <zateev@...>
                        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:05 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                         
                        I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/ontarget   I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.
                        Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS

                        From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                         
                        Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                        YIS,

                        Symon Bearo

                        (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum



                      • John Edgerton
                        To me it seems clear that modern style recurve bows are allowed to shoot.  However, they under the rules they do not fall in the Period category.  Also, in
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          To me it seems clear that modern style recurve bows are allowed to shoot.  However, they under the rules they do not fall in the Period category
                          Also, in reading the rules I saw no mention of a "traditional" category that you mentioned. 

                          "e. Period bow: A handbow or crossbow that conforms in spirit and/or actuality to 
                          bows common during the time period covered by the SCA. 
                          i. The following are prohibited: 
                          o Full or partial center cut sight windows.
                          o Limb marks or sighting aids.
                          o Non-period arrow rests.
                          o Take down bows.

                          Jon


                          From: ater seraph <ater_seraph@...>
                          To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:22 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                           
                          Greetings Aleksei:

                          I DID read it, and have it here. I am posting a copy of the section that you mentioned. It seems pretty clear, that a modern style recurve bow shoots in the period catagory, as long as they are using the correct arrow types. How do the rest of you see it? 

                          Symon

                          c. Handbows
                          i. Recurve: Any bow with recurved limb ends and a cutout sight window. 
                          Includes bows with only slightly recurved limb ends and cutout sight 
                          windows, where the string does not touch or only slightly touches the 
                          recurved portion of the limb. Includes bows modeled on the Asian style 
                          recurves characterized by static recurved limb tips, or Siyahs, with or 
                          without a cutout sight window.
                          ii. Longbow: Any bow with straight limbs or slightly recurved limb ends, 
                          with or without a cutout sight window, where the bowstring does not 
                          touch or only slightly touches the limb ends. Modern longbows having 
                          an arrow shelf built into the bow are, by definition, longbows.
                          d. Crossbows: Any bow meeting the crossbow equipment standards in D.4. 
                          Crossbows may be shot from any position consistent with safety standards. No 
                          artificial supports may be used.
                          e. Period bow: A handbow or crossbow that conforms in spirit and/or actuality to 
                          bows common during the time period covered by the SCA. 
                          i. The following are prohibited: 
                          o Full or partial center cut sight windows.
                          o Limb marks or sighting aids.
                          o Non-period arrow rests.
                          o Take down bows.


                          From: "zateev@..." <zateev@...>
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:05 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                           
                          I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/ontarget   I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.
                          Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS

                          From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                           
                          Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                          YIS,

                          Symon Bearo

                          (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum





                        • Chris Ivins
                          Thank you for the explanation, Sir Jon, I was playing catch-up with the posts and was about to comment on that, when I saw your post and quote of the rules.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thank you for the explanation, Sir Jon, I was playing catch-up with the posts and was about to comment on that, when I saw your post and quote of the rules. Also, the last two comments apply to about 80-90% of the modern recurves:

                            "o Non-period arrow rests.
                            o Take down bows."

                            which would mean that it is not true that "...ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional",..." (or Period)


                            Symon, if you are referring to this section,
                            "i. Recurve: Any bow with recurved limb ends and a cutout sight window. 
                            Includes bows with only slightly recurved limb ends and cutout sight 
                            windows, where the string does not touch or only slightly touches the 
                            recurved portion of the limb. Includes bows modeled on the Asian style 
                            recurves characterized by static recurved limb tips, or Siyahs, with or 
                            without a cutout sight window.", that is only the definition of a Recurve in the Handbow category, not saying that it is a Period bow.


                            I am a relatively new archery shooter, I have only been doing so for a little over a year, and I am still learning a lot of the basics and rules as a Jr. TAM, and your questions made me look back through the rules and double-check, and if something looks questionable, it is always good to ask questions and be sure!

                            - IS,
                                    Iurii Levchenich
                                    Jr, TAM, Deputy to HL Johanna Trewpeny, Archery Marshal of Adiantum
                                    Arcuarius to Gawin of Kevelioc



                            From: John Edgerton <sirjon1@...>
                            To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:33 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories



                            To me it seems clear that modern style recurve bows are allowed to shoot.  However, they under the rules they do not fall in the Period category
                            Also, in reading the rules I saw no mention of a "traditional" category that you mentioned. 

                            "e. Period bow: A handbow or crossbow that conforms in spirit and/or actuality to 
                            bows common during the time period covered by the SCA. 
                            i. The following are prohibited: 
                            o Full or partial center cut sight windows.
                            o Limb marks or sighting aids.
                            o Non-period arrow rests.
                            o Take down bows.

                            Jon


                            From: ater seraph <ater_seraph@...>
                            To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:22 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                             
                            Greetings Aleksei:

                            I DID read it, and have it here. I am posting a copy of the section that you mentioned. It seems pretty clear, that a modern style recurve bow shoots in the period catagory, as long as they are using the correct arrow types. How do the rest of you see it? 

                            Symon

                            c. Handbows
                            i. Recurve: Any bow with recurved limb ends and a cutout sight window. 
                            Includes bows with only slightly recurved limb ends and cutout sight 
                            windows, where the string does not touch or only slightly touches the 
                            recurved portion of the limb. Includes bows modeled on the Asian style 
                            recurves characterized by static recurved limb tips, or Siyahs, with or 
                            without a cutout sight window.
                            ii. Longbow: Any bow with straight limbs or slightly recurved limb ends, 
                            with or without a cutout sight window, where the bowstring does not 
                            touch or only slightly touches the limb ends. Modern longbows having 
                            an arrow shelf built into the bow are, by definition, longbows.
                            d. Crossbows: Any bow meeting the crossbow equipment standards in D.4. 
                            Crossbows may be shot from any position consistent with safety standards. No 
                            artificial supports may be used.
                            e. Period bow: A handbow or crossbow that conforms in spirit and/or actuality to 
                            bows common during the time period covered by the SCA. 
                            i. The following are prohibited: 
                            o Full or partial center cut sight windows.
                            o Limb marks or sighting aids.
                            o Non-period arrow rests.
                            o Take down bows.


                            From: "zateev@..." <zateev@...>
                            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 4:05 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                             
                            I would suggest that you read the period section of the An Tir Book of Target that can be found at www.zateev.net/ontarget   I believe that you will find that your interpretation is in error.
                            Archos Aleksei Zateev, OGGS

                            From: "David" <ater_seraph@...>
                            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55:40 AM
                            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                             
                            Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?

                            YIS,

                            Symon Bearo

                            (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum









                          • Janyn Fletcher
                            Symon, anytime! I agree whole heartedly with you. Also shooting a period bow takes much more skill and practice to master. As an English longbow owner now
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Symon, anytime! I agree whole heartedly with you. Also shooting a period bow takes much more skill and practice to master. As an English longbow owner now myself, I can honestly say this :)
                               
                              Janyn
                               

                              From: ater seraph <ater_seraph@...>
                              To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 6:40 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
                               
                              Thank you for your reply Janyn !

                              I wish AnTir would learn from your Kingdom's example. Modern recurves and european style longbows should not be shooting against each other in a classification that is supposed to be "period." Unfortunately, they can here. Thank you again for your reply.

                              In Service,

                              Symon

                              From: Janyn Fletcher <janynfletcher@...>
                              To: "SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com" <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:09 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
                               
                              Here in atlantia period bows are just that. No modern takedowns or recurves that are center cut. We do allow additional shelves if they are of a period style such as bone, leather attached, etc. In my opinion what you are describing is in fact traditional but should not be confused with period. We do allow recurves, longbows reflex-deflex and traditional "D" shape and even take down versions of these. They don't fall into the period class, they stay in their respective recurve / longbow classes.
                               
                              Janyn
                               

                              From: David <ater_seraph@...>
                              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 2:55 PM
                              Subject: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories
                               
                              Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.? YIS, Symon Bearo (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
                            • Bernhard Rohrer
                              ... This is interesting. that should allow the Korean horsebows that have a small cutout which is only an arrow rest but not a sight window, since it is too
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 5, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > o Full or partial center cut sight windows.

                                This is interesting. that should allow the Korean horsebows that have a small cutout which is only an arrow rest but not a sight window, since it is too small. I still have my doubts about the periodness of this though.

                                /Arpad
                                --
                              • Carolus
                                You have just pointed out the biggest problem with SCA rules. We are3 constantly dealing with the I haven t seen it. or I don t know of any. issues We
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 6, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  You have just pointed out the biggest problem with SCA rules.  We are3 constantly dealing with the "I haven't seen it." or "I don't know of any." issues  We also have to deal with the "Everybody Knows..." situation in which everyone does not know and what they think they know is completely wrong but it is common belief.
                                  Carolus
                                  On 7/4/2013 3:35 PM, brotherjohn66 wrote:
                                   

                                  Hello All:

                                  This is just my 2 cents worth(inflation, you know).
                                  Symon is, imo, correct that the period bow category ought to include only bows that are actually period. I have never seen a period bow from any primary source that has an arrow shelf/rest. I'm not saying they didn't exist, I just don't know of any. If anyone out there can document them, I'd appreciate it, because we should all be open to learning new things. I don't think Symon is saying that that period bows are less accurate, just that they are more difficult to master. And that, again in my opinion, does give the modern recurve user a distinct advantage, at least at first. Ergo, having a separate category for truly period equipment makes sense. And allowing modern bows to compete in this category does not make sense.

                                  Sincerely,
                                  John

                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "David" <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different, ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
                                  >
                                  > YIS,
                                  >
                                  > Symon Bearo
                                  >
                                  > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
                                  >


                                • Carolus
                                  What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes more of a difference than the archer. I have found that this only applies until the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 6, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes more of a difference than the archer.  I have found that this only applies until the archers achieve a
                                    moderate skill level then the skill overcomes the equipment.
                                    Carolus

                                    On 7/4/2013 3:38 PM, ater seraph wrote:
                                     
                                    Thank you for your reply Taillear:

                                    Here is why I find the situation sad: If I am using an English style Longbow with no arrow rests and not recurved, a person that is using a modern recurve wood/fiberglass bow with an arrow shelf can be entered in the Traditional catagory along with me and compete. That is what is sad. There is nothing period looking, in spirit or otherwise, about a modern wood/fiberglass recurve bow that has an arrow shelf. The only thing that comes close is a steppes style Horse bow, which is recurved and is period. Thusly, it takes more skill to use a bow that is recurved, and where you must shoot off of your hand. That was my point about the disadvantage. Arrow shelves being a modern convention, I have seen no period documentation for an arrow rest, or a european bow that was recurved like the modern ones. I agree that it is no less accurate, just not as efficient, the bow flexing along the whole length as opposed to mainly the ends, as in a modern recurve style. I just would like to see in my Kingdom the seperation of those kind of bows, since they are decidedly NOT period, or period looking. Thank you for your reply.

                                    In Service,

                                    Symon


                                    From: Guy Taylor <greenmanarrows@...>
                                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 12:27 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Kingdom Bow Catagories

                                     
                                    "...and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is considered "Period" for
                                    the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the least. If ANY
                                    modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
                                    "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a
                                    medieval style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a
                                    decided disadvantage."

                                    Without actually trying to answer your questions, I do have an
                                    observation and a question that you have raised in my mind.
                                    Question: Why do you find it sad that any wood bow is considered "period?"
                                    Observation: The term stickbow can be lent to a generic wood bow, not
                                    just an ELB style bow. And, why do you feel that using an ELB puts the
                                    archer at a decided disadvantage? More difficult to learn, yes. Less
                                    accurate, not in the least.

                                    Taillear

                                    On 7/4/13, David <ater_seraph@...> wrote:
                                    > Greetings fellow archers: I was wondering if your Kingdom has a different,
                                    > ie more stringent, view on the "Traditional" or "period" longbow
                                    > classification. I am from AnTir, and here ANY longbow made out of wood, is
                                    > considered "Period" for the "Traditional" category. I find this sad at the
                                    > least. If ANY modern, recurve, fiberglass longbow with an arrow rest is
                                    > "Traditional", then why even have this category? Anyone that uses a medieval
                                    > style English/Welsh longbow, ie stick bow, will start at a decided
                                    > disadvantage. Discussion on this? I am curious, being new to SCA Archery, I
                                    > was a Heavy for MANY years, and I'm kind of seeing a pattern here. Ideas, or
                                    > stricter measures for what is considered 'Traditional'.?
                                    >
                                    > YIS,
                                    >
                                    > Symon Bearo
                                    >
                                    > (AnTir) Barnony of Adiantum
                                    >
                                    >

                                    --
                                    The Greenman Archery <http://www.greenmanarchery.com/index.html> Website
                                    Fine custom wood arrows for traditional archers.



                                  • The Greys
                                    Carolus - Nail head. SMACK!!! Dead on! I have always believed that a champion s shoot should test the skill of an archer so that the true champion prevails.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 7, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Carolus - Nail head. SMACK!!! Dead on! I have always believed that a champion's shoot should test the skill of an archer so that the true champion prevails. Thus in our baronial champion shoots I have designed and conducted I have things like shooting with unfamiliar equipment, I provide the bow and arrows for one portion of the shoot. At Southern Atlantian Archery Day, SAAD for short, I believe archers of all skill levels should be able to score some points. Thus I set shooting stations that are not as tough but have a few to separate out and challenge the better archers.

                                      But can we be reasonable here? How many of us have seen pictures of aborigine folks shooting compound bows with sights, release mechanisms, balancers, string silencers, carbon shafted arrows, et al? Yeah, I haven't either. And yet amazingly these folks are able to feed their families from what they kill with basically a bent stick with a string on it. And yet we hear of modern "hunters" missing shots on a deer.

                                      Longbows are slightly more difficult to master than modern recurves. But practice, practice, practice makes a HUGE difference in the results. Do we not read about archers in period that could hit the heart of a man sized target at 100 or more yards or shoot through the open visor of a French knight?

                                      Thus it is NOT the equipment but the "operator" that makes the difference. Carolus, right on!

                                      cog

                                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes
                                      > more of a difference than the archer. I have found that this only
                                      > applies until the archers achieve a
                                      > moderate skill level then the skill overcomes the equipment.
                                      > Carolus
                                    • Ronald Klick
                                      Greetings fellow archers,   The answers are availability, and the quest for high scores! The Aborigine use what is available, what they can make themselves,
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Greetings fellow archers,
                                         
                                        The answers are availability, and the quest for high scores! The Aborigine use what is available, what they can make themselves, it is what the know and what they are good at. Much like the ELB in period, they trained with it from a young age. many of us do not get enough practice time as it is. Some can afford Blackwidows, and they are mostly not likely to let them go in favor of lower scores with a period bow. I shoot a "vintage" Stemmler Turk hunting bow, which I've owned for forty years now. I also teach kids at camp, and run practices where SCA youth can shoot IKAC rounds in the three "Youth" Divisions. I quite often shoot their equipment so that I have a feel for it when teaching. (its a lot of fun to challenge another adult to shooting these light bows and arrows at novelty shoots at events!!) I do not think archers are measured by their skill in some cases, but their skill with a specific set of premium tools. Problem is how to get the most Elite on the RR list to take the lead with Period equipment.
                                         
                                        Osmond de Berwic

                                        From: The Greys <cogworks@...>
                                        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2013 6:38 PM
                                        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Kingdom Bow Catagories
                                         
                                        Carolus - Nail head. SMACK!!! Dead on! I have always believed that a champion's shoot should test the skill of an archer so that the true champion prevails. Thus in our baronial champion shoots I have designed and conducted I have things like shooting with unfamiliar equipment, I provide the bow and arrows for one portion of the shoot. At Southern Atlantian Archery Day, SAAD for short, I believe archers of all skill levels should be able to score some points. Thus I set shooting stations that are not as tough but have a few to separate out and challenge the better archers.

                                        But can we be reasonable here? How many of us have seen pictures of aborigine folks shooting compound bows with sights, release mechanisms, balancers, string silencers, carbon shafted arrows, et al? Yeah, I haven't either. And yet amazingly these folks are able to feed their families from what they kill with basically a bent stick with a string on it. And yet we hear of modern "hunters" missing shots on a deer.

                                        Longbows are slightly more difficult to master than modern recurves. But practice, practice, practice makes a HUGE difference in the results. Do we not read about archers in period that could hit the heart of a man sized target at 100 or more yards or shoot through the open visor of a French knight?

                                        Thus it is NOT the equipment but the "operator" that makes the difference. Carolus, right on!

                                        cog

                                        --- In mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > What I really find sad is the fact the folks believe the equipment makes
                                        > more of a difference than the archer. I have found that this only
                                        > applies until the archers achieve a
                                        > moderate skill level then the skill overcomes the equipment.
                                        > Carolus

                                      • Groff, Garth (ggg9y)
                                        M’Lord Osmond, Greetings. The easiest way to spread period archery is to lead by example. That’s what I’m trying to do. Throwing down challenges is
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 9, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment

                                          M’Lord Osmond, Greetings.

                                           

                                          The easiest way to spread period archery is to lead by example. That’s what I’m trying to do.

                                           

                                          Throwing down challenges is another way. Make others want to prove themselves with period equipment.

                                           

                                          And teach, teach, teach. Make your students curious. Set easy goals at first. I just taught a University class on making simple target-weight period-style arrows. I will teach this again at Pennsic. At least a few of my students are going to try making these arrows, and one or two may take up a period bow as well.

                                           

                                          We can’t beat anybody with a stick to make them want to try. Tempting, but probably futile.

                                           

                                          Yours Aye,

                                           

                                          Lord Mungo Napier, The Archer of Mallard Lodge

                                          Read “The Tale of Mungo Napier”:

                                          http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/napier1.html

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                          From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Klick
                                          Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 7:11 AM
                                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Kingdom Bow Catagories

                                           


                                          On 7/9/13 Lord Osmond wrote:

                                          I do not think archers are measured by their skill in some cases, but their skill with a specific set of premium tools. Problem is how to get the most Elite on the RR list to take the lead with Period equipment.

                                           

                                          Osmond de Berwic

                                           

                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.