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Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

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  • Susan Carroll-Clark
    Greetings! At the vast majority of shoots in Ealdormere, we trust each shooter to pull their own arrows and score accordingly. We will call in a marshal
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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      Greetings!

      At the vast majority of shoots in Ealdormere, we trust each shooter to
      pull their own arrows and score accordingly. We will call in a marshal
      before pulling any arrow that's questionable (e.g. just breaking the
      line) but in case of doubt the decision is always in the archer's
      favour. Certainly at Pennsic during a War Point shoot you want the
      marshals to do the scoring (it's always a lot easier to do it that way
      at such a large event anyway, rather then having each shooter report
      scores) but otherwise folks are on their honour to speak truly.

      Nicolaa
      Ealdormere
    • Siegfried
      Others have answered well, but I ll answer in my own words, and speaking (as Janyn did) from the Atlantian s POV: 1. The rules are there for safety. Scoring
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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        Others have answered well, but I'll answer in my own words, and speaking
        (as Janyn did) from the Atlantian's POV:

        1. The rules are there for safety. Scoring is not safety. One does not
        make a rule about how something should be scored, since any number of
        different shoots can exist and be scored however is wished.

        2. Each Kingdom is different. In Atlantia it is quite common for all
        scoring to be left to the honor of the archer themselves to score.
        Sometimes a marshal might be standing there and watching. If there's
        ever a question about score, the archer will call the marshal over. But
        just like in golf, it's a 'monitored honor' system. Where you announce
        & record your own score. While keeping an eye on your fellow folks to
        make sure that they didn't 'accidentally' record a wrong score.

        Siegfried


        On 7/1/13 9:44 AM, Bernhard Rohrer wrote:
        >
        >
        > Greetings good gentles
        >
        > I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have
        > reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest
        > that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh
        > and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not
        > count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional
        > ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.
        >
        > YIS
        >
        > Arpad
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust, OP - Baron Highland Foorde - Atlantia
        http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
      • Chris Ivins
        Because I am disabled, I usually end up with someone retrieving arrows for me, but I always tell the retriever and marshals that if there is the slightest
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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          Because I am disabled, I usually end up with someone retrieving arrows for me, but I always tell the retriever and marshals that if there is the slightest doubt, default it to the lower score/outer ring, that way there is no controversy about whether it 'cut' the line or not.

          - Iurii



          From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: Suzanne Lacey <goldenhind05@...>
          Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 AM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question



          As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.

          Am I making sense?

          /Arpad

          On 01/07/13 18:30, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
           
          I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.

          Suzanne

          On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
           
          I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
          Rupert.


          Dave Rosen
          drosen105@...


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
          To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
          Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

           
          Greetings good gentles

          I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

          YIS

          Arpad








        • Ronald Klick
          Exactly the practice as I ve always known it. And as a marshal, if it is THAT close, just give them the one point. Osmond East ________________________________
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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            Exactly the practice as I've always known it. And as a marshal, if it is THAT close, just give them the one point.

            Osmond
            East


            From: Doug Copley <doug.copley@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:38 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

             
            For myself and for archers that I teach, I tell them to only pull the arrows that there is no question on, if there is any question, leave it and have the marshal in charge or another marshal score it.

            Vincenti
            Ansteorra 


            On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Groff, Garth (ggg9y) <ggg9y@...> wrote:
             
            M’Lord Arpad,
             
            We have no such rule here in Atlantia. We are an honorable society, and (until proven otherwise, which I hope never happens) assume that all archers are likewise honest and honorable. In addition, when there is any question, a scoring decision is always in favor of the archer.
             
            Yours Aye,
             
            Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir (Atlantia) TA Marshal
            Read “The Tale of Mungo Napier”:
             
             
             
            From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bernhard Rohrer
            Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 9:44 AM
            To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question
             


            Greetings good gentles

            I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

            YIS

            Arpad








          • Dierk zem Grauen Wolf
            To me, this entire discussion is really pretty petty. It s a game. Does it really matter what you score? If something as nitpicky as touching an arrow causing
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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              To me, this entire discussion is really pretty petty. It's a game. Does it really matter what you score? If something as nitpicky as touching an arrow causing a line to break really cause you any concern at all, you're in the wrong society. So what if your score goes up a point or two? Does it really matter??? Go out and shoot, enjoy the comraderie, laugh, b.s. with your fellow archers, and don't worry about what you score. I go out to have fun. I couldn't care less whether I win, lose, or do better than other archers. In the end, if I had fun, that is all that matters.

              Sincerely,
              Dierk zem grauen wolf
              Great household of the dark horde

              On Jul 1, 2013 2:45 PM, "Bernhard Rohrer" <graylion@...> wrote:
              >
              >  
              >
              > As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.
              >
              > Am I making sense?
              >
              > /Arpad
              >
              >
              > On 01/07/13 18:30, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
              >>
              >>  
              >>
              >> I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.
              >>
              >> Suzanne
              >>
              >> On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
              >>>
              >>>  
              >>>
              >>> I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
              >>> Rupert.
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> Dave Rosen
              >>> drosen105@...
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> -----Original Message-----
              >>> From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
              >>> To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
              >>> Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
              >>> Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question
              >>>
              >>>  
              >>> Greetings good gentles
              >>>
              >>> I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.
              >>>
              >>> YIS
              >>>
              >>> Arpad
              >>> ________________________________
              >>>
              >>
              >
              >

            • Jim Pickette
              It seems that in all of these mentioned cases Honour was well served. We do not need to inspect or re-inspect a target, but in the most severe conditions. JoO
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                It seems that in all of these mentioned cases Honour was well served. We do not need to inspect or re-inspect a target, but in the most severe conditions.

                JoO

                ---- Chris Ivins <yuriilev@...> wrote:
                > Because I am disabled, I usually end up with someone retrieving arrows for me, but I always tell the retriever and marshals that if there is the slightest doubt, default it to the lower score/outer ring, that way there is no controversy about whether it 'cut' the line or not.
                >
                > - Iurii
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >________________________________
                > > From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                > >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                > >Cc: Suzanne Lacey <goldenhind05@...>
                > >Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 AM
                > >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.
                > >
                > >Am I making sense?
                > >
                > >/Arpad
                > >
                > >On 01/07/13 18:30, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
                > >
                > > 
                > >>I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.
                > >>
                > >>Suzanne
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> 
                > >>>I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
                > >>>Rupert.
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>Dave Rosen
                > >>>drosen105@...
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>-----Original Message-----
                > >>>From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                > >>>To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                > >>>Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
                > >>>Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules
                > question
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>> 
                > >>>Greetings good gentles
                > >>>
                > >>>I have just come back to SCA
                > Archery after 10 year's
                > abstention and have reread
                > all rules to refamiliarise
                > myself. I have noticed with
                > interest that no rulset
                > mentions a rule that all
                > mundane archers have in
                > flesh and blood - an arrow
                > that got touched before it
                > got scored does not count,
                > as a touch can induce a line
                > break. Is this an
                > intentional ommission? If
                > so, I would be interested in
                > the intent behind it.
                > >>>
                > >>>YIS
                > >>>
                > >>>Arpad
                > >>>
                > >>>________________________________
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • Carolus
                I can address this for Caid since I was there for the writing of the first handbook. It was not consciously addressed because the majority of archers at the
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                  I can address this for Caid since I was there for the writing of the first handbook.  It was not consciously addressed because the majority of archers at the time came from the ranks of collegiate or avocational competitive shooters and it is an ingrained habit for them.  We always taught it to new archers and so was simply a part the the culture.  It simply wasn't a needed rule at the time.  The worry was not so much one of gaining an undeserved point as it was costing another archer a point they deserved. 
                  Carolus
                  On 7/1/2013 10:30 AM, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
                   

                  I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.

                  Suzanne

                  On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
                   

                  I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
                  Rupert.



                  Dave Rosen
                  drosen105@...


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                  To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
                  Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

                   
                  Greetings good gentles

                  I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

                  YIS

                  Arpad




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