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Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

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  • Paul O'Brien
    Hi The SCA rules only list what is needed to run a shoot safely and not points of etiquette , i.e. don t touch arrows before they are scored, only collect
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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      Hi

      The SCA rules only list what is needed to run a shoot safely and not points of etiquette, i.e. don't touch arrows before they are scored, only collect arrows in front of the target so that everyone is there for having their arrows scored at the same time and you don't have to wait while people collect overshoot arrows, remaining on the line until everyone has shoot, don't remove other peoples arrows without asking them, offering to pay for someone arrow you broke, height the centre of the target shoot be, the angel the boss shoot be set at, etc

      The list is quite long of stuff you could include and as such the SCA appears to have decide to leave it mostly up to the archery marshal's/kingdom's/shoot co-ordinator's discretion with the expiation of safety issues.

      While this means you some times get very relaxed shoots and sometimes very strict shoots (very GNAS style) I think the SCA as a whole befits from it; as it means you have the flexibility to do the"welcome to SCA archery and lets have some fun shooting" and you can also have the "best archers in the kingdom shoots face off shoot".

      It also gives each kingdom a lot more choose in how archery shoot be run within itself.

      YIS
      Pól


       

      On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...> wrote:


      Greetings good gentles

      I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

      YIS

      Arpad





    • Susan Carroll-Clark
      Greetings! At the vast majority of shoots in Ealdormere, we trust each shooter to pull their own arrows and score accordingly. We will call in a marshal
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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        Greetings!

        At the vast majority of shoots in Ealdormere, we trust each shooter to
        pull their own arrows and score accordingly. We will call in a marshal
        before pulling any arrow that's questionable (e.g. just breaking the
        line) but in case of doubt the decision is always in the archer's
        favour. Certainly at Pennsic during a War Point shoot you want the
        marshals to do the scoring (it's always a lot easier to do it that way
        at such a large event anyway, rather then having each shooter report
        scores) but otherwise folks are on their honour to speak truly.

        Nicolaa
        Ealdormere
      • Siegfried
        Others have answered well, but I ll answer in my own words, and speaking (as Janyn did) from the Atlantian s POV: 1. The rules are there for safety. Scoring
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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          Others have answered well, but I'll answer in my own words, and speaking
          (as Janyn did) from the Atlantian's POV:

          1. The rules are there for safety. Scoring is not safety. One does not
          make a rule about how something should be scored, since any number of
          different shoots can exist and be scored however is wished.

          2. Each Kingdom is different. In Atlantia it is quite common for all
          scoring to be left to the honor of the archer themselves to score.
          Sometimes a marshal might be standing there and watching. If there's
          ever a question about score, the archer will call the marshal over. But
          just like in golf, it's a 'monitored honor' system. Where you announce
          & record your own score. While keeping an eye on your fellow folks to
          make sure that they didn't 'accidentally' record a wrong score.

          Siegfried


          On 7/1/13 9:44 AM, Bernhard Rohrer wrote:
          >
          >
          > Greetings good gentles
          >
          > I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have
          > reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest
          > that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh
          > and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not
          > count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional
          > ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.
          >
          > YIS
          >
          > Arpad
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust, OP - Baron Highland Foorde - Atlantia
          http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
        • Chris Ivins
          Because I am disabled, I usually end up with someone retrieving arrows for me, but I always tell the retriever and marshals that if there is the slightest
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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            Because I am disabled, I usually end up with someone retrieving arrows for me, but I always tell the retriever and marshals that if there is the slightest doubt, default it to the lower score/outer ring, that way there is no controversy about whether it 'cut' the line or not.

            - Iurii



            From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: Suzanne Lacey <goldenhind05@...>
            Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question



            As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.

            Am I making sense?

            /Arpad

            On 01/07/13 18:30, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
             
            I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.

            Suzanne

            On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
             
            I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
            Rupert.


            Dave Rosen
            drosen105@...


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
            To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

             
            Greetings good gentles

            I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

            YIS

            Arpad








          • Ronald Klick
            Exactly the practice as I ve always known it. And as a marshal, if it is THAT close, just give them the one point. Osmond East ________________________________
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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              Exactly the practice as I've always known it. And as a marshal, if it is THAT close, just give them the one point.

              Osmond
              East


              From: Doug Copley <doug.copley@...>
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:38 PM
              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

               
              For myself and for archers that I teach, I tell them to only pull the arrows that there is no question on, if there is any question, leave it and have the marshal in charge or another marshal score it.

              Vincenti
              Ansteorra 


              On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Groff, Garth (ggg9y) <ggg9y@...> wrote:
               
              M’Lord Arpad,
               
              We have no such rule here in Atlantia. We are an honorable society, and (until proven otherwise, which I hope never happens) assume that all archers are likewise honest and honorable. In addition, when there is any question, a scoring decision is always in favor of the archer.
               
              Yours Aye,
               
              Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir (Atlantia) TA Marshal
              Read “The Tale of Mungo Napier”:
               
               
               
              From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bernhard Rohrer
              Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 9:44 AM
              To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question
               


              Greetings good gentles

              I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

              YIS

              Arpad








            • Dierk zem Grauen Wolf
              To me, this entire discussion is really pretty petty. It s a game. Does it really matter what you score? If something as nitpicky as touching an arrow causing
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                To me, this entire discussion is really pretty petty. It's a game. Does it really matter what you score? If something as nitpicky as touching an arrow causing a line to break really cause you any concern at all, you're in the wrong society. So what if your score goes up a point or two? Does it really matter??? Go out and shoot, enjoy the comraderie, laugh, b.s. with your fellow archers, and don't worry about what you score. I go out to have fun. I couldn't care less whether I win, lose, or do better than other archers. In the end, if I had fun, that is all that matters.

                Sincerely,
                Dierk zem grauen wolf
                Great household of the dark horde

                On Jul 1, 2013 2:45 PM, "Bernhard Rohrer" <graylion@...> wrote:
                >
                >  
                >
                > As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.
                >
                > Am I making sense?
                >
                > /Arpad
                >
                >
                > On 01/07/13 18:30, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
                >>
                >>  
                >>
                >> I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.
                >>
                >> Suzanne
                >>
                >> On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
                >>>
                >>>  
                >>>
                >>> I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
                >>> Rupert.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> Dave Rosen
                >>> drosen105@...
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> -----Original Message-----
                >>> From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                >>> To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                >>> Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
                >>> Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question
                >>>
                >>>  
                >>> Greetings good gentles
                >>>
                >>> I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.
                >>>
                >>> YIS
                >>>
                >>> Arpad
                >>> ________________________________
                >>>
                >>
                >
                >

              • Jim Pickette
                It seems that in all of these mentioned cases Honour was well served. We do not need to inspect or re-inspect a target, but in the most severe conditions. JoO
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                  It seems that in all of these mentioned cases Honour was well served. We do not need to inspect or re-inspect a target, but in the most severe conditions.

                  JoO

                  ---- Chris Ivins <yuriilev@...> wrote:
                  > Because I am disabled, I usually end up with someone retrieving arrows for me, but I always tell the retriever and marshals that if there is the slightest doubt, default it to the lower score/outer ring, that way there is no controversy about whether it 'cut' the line or not.
                  >
                  > - Iurii
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >________________________________
                  > > From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                  > >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Cc: Suzanne Lacey <goldenhind05@...>
                  > >Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 AM
                  > >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.
                  > >
                  > >Am I making sense?
                  > >
                  > >/Arpad
                  > >
                  > >On 01/07/13 18:30, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
                  > >
                  > > 
                  > >>I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.
                  > >>
                  > >>Suzanne
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> 
                  > >>>I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
                  > >>>Rupert.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>Dave Rosen
                  > >>>drosen105@...
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>-----Original Message-----
                  > >>>From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                  > >>>To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                  > >>>Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
                  > >>>Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules
                  > question
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>> 
                  > >>>Greetings good gentles
                  > >>>
                  > >>>I have just come back to SCA
                  > Archery after 10 year's
                  > abstention and have reread
                  > all rules to refamiliarise
                  > myself. I have noticed with
                  > interest that no rulset
                  > mentions a rule that all
                  > mundane archers have in
                  > flesh and blood - an arrow
                  > that got touched before it
                  > got scored does not count,
                  > as a touch can induce a line
                  > break. Is this an
                  > intentional ommission? If
                  > so, I would be interested in
                  > the intent behind it.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>YIS
                  > >>>
                  > >>>Arpad
                  > >>>
                  > >>>________________________________
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • Carolus
                  I can address this for Caid since I was there for the writing of the first handbook. It was not consciously addressed because the majority of archers at the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                    I can address this for Caid since I was there for the writing of the first handbook.  It was not consciously addressed because the majority of archers at the time came from the ranks of collegiate or avocational competitive shooters and it is an ingrained habit for them.  We always taught it to new archers and so was simply a part the the culture.  It simply wasn't a needed rule at the time.  The worry was not so much one of gaining an undeserved point as it was costing another archer a point they deserved. 
                    Carolus
                    On 7/1/2013 10:30 AM, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
                     

                    I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.

                    Suzanne

                    On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
                     

                    I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
                    Rupert.



                    Dave Rosen
                    drosen105@...


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                    To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

                     
                    Greetings good gentles

                    I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

                    YIS

                    Arpad




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