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Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

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  • Ld.blackmoon
    greetings I believe that the rule was left out on purpose. we are supposed to be an honorable society whose members would not think it worth the loss of
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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      greetings
       
      I believe that the rule was left out on purpose.
      we are supposed to be an " honorable society " whose members would not think it worth the loss of honor and respect to gain something as worthless as a point.
      however, over the years I have seen a lot of the mundane mentality of " win at any cost " creep into all aspects of the martial activities in the sca : (
      luckily , not as often as it is seen mundanely, but still often enough to make people take notice, and shake their heads : /
       
      Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun .
      Arthur
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Bill Tait
      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 10:44 AM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

       

      And I now twitch watching people score I  the sca. I have even seen people flattening out the target to see where the line wouod be if that wrinkle were not there.

      I think that rule is not in our gwme to keep it fun ane less serious. But. There are a number of rules in sca archery that are more restrictive than in FITA.

      Williqm Arwemakere

      On 2013-07-01 8:39 AM, "Bernhard Rohrer" <graylion@...> wrote:
       

      Greetings good gentles

      I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

      YIS

      Arpad



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    • drosen105
      I believe it s a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry Rupert. Dave Rosen drosen105@aol.com ... From: Bernhard Rohrer
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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        I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
        Rupert.


        Dave Rosen
        drosen105@...


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
        To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

         
        Greetings good gentles

        I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

        YIS

        Arpad


      • Bernhard Rohrer
        I admittedly just find it awkward. Because in my opinion it would be chivalric to not touch any arrows and thus risk the chance of inadvertently falsifying
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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          I admittedly just find it awkward. Because in my opinion it would be chivalric to not touch any arrows and thus risk the chance of inadvertently falsifying one's own or somebody else's result. Let alone flatten the target *shudders*

          /Arpad

          On 01/07/13 16:44, Bill Tait wrote:
           

          And I now twitch watching people score I  the sca. I have even seen people flattening out the target to see where the line wouod be if that wrinkle were not there.

          I think that rule is not in our gwme to keep it fun ane less serious. But. There are a number of rules in sca archery that are more restrictive than in FITA.

          Williqm Arwemakere

          On 2013-07-01 8:39 AM, "Bernhard Rohrer" <graylion@...> wrote:
           

          Greetings good gentles

          I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

          YIS

          Arpad




        • Suzanne Lacey
          I ve seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines *very* clear), but I ve never seen any
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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            I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.

            Suzanne

            On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
             

            I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
            Rupert.



            Dave Rosen
            drosen105@...


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
            To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

             
            Greetings good gentles

            I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

            YIS

            Arpad



          • Groff, Garth (ggg9y)
            M’Lord Arpad, We have no such rule here in Atlantia. We are an honorable society, and (until proven otherwise, which I hope never happens) assume that all
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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              M’Lord Arpad,

               

              We have no such rule here in Atlantia. We are an honorable society, and (until proven otherwise, which I hope never happens) assume that all archers are likewise honest and honorable. In addition, when there is any question, a scoring decision is always in favor of the archer.

               

              Yours Aye,

               

              Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir (Atlantia) TA Marshal

              Read “The Tale of Mungo Napier”:

              http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/napier1.html

               

               

               

              From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bernhard Rohrer
              Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 9:44 AM
              To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

               



              Greetings good gentles

              I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

              YIS

              Arpad






            • Doug Copley
              For myself and for archers that I teach, I tell them to only pull the arrows that there is no question on, if there is any question, leave it and have the
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                For myself and for archers that I teach, I tell them to only pull the arrows that there is no question on, if there is any question, leave it and have the marshal in charge or another marshal score it.

                Vincenti
                Ansteorra 


                On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Groff, Garth (ggg9y) <ggg9y@...> wrote:
                 

                M’Lord Arpad,

                 

                We have no such rule here in Atlantia. We are an honorable society, and (until proven otherwise, which I hope never happens) assume that all archers are likewise honest and honorable. In addition, when there is any question, a scoring decision is always in favor of the archer.

                 

                Yours Aye,

                 

                Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir (Atlantia) TA Marshal

                Read “The Tale of Mungo Napier”:

                http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/napier1.html

                 

                 

                 

                From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bernhard Rohrer
                Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 9:44 AM
                To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

                 



                Greetings good gentles

                I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

                YIS

                Arpad







              • Bill Tait
                ... arrows that there is no question on, if there is any question, leave it and have the marshal in charge or another marshal score it. ... But in the act of
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                  On 2013-07-01 10:39 AM, "Doug Copley" <doug.copley@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > For myself and for archers that I teach, I tell them to only pull the arrows that there is no question on, if there is any question, leave it and have the marshal in charge or another marshal score it.
                  >
                  > Vincenti
                  > Ansteorra

                  But in the act of pulling all other arrows, it is highly likely that the target will move, particularly if it is paper pinned to a haybale. Call the marshal to check the arrow in question before pulling anything else.

                  William - who can't find Ansteorran RR rules anywhere...


                  > On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Groff, Garth (ggg9y) <ggg9y@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>  
                  >>
                  >> M’Lord Arpad,
                  >>
                  >>  
                  >>
                  >> We have no such rule here in Atlantia. We are an honorable society, and (until proven otherwise, which I hope never happens) assume that all archers are likewise honest and honorable. In addition, when there is any question, a scoring decision is always in favor of the archer.
                  >>
                  >>  
                  >>
                  >> Yours Aye,
                  >>
                  >>  
                  >>
                  >> Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir (Atlantia) TA Marshal
                  >>
                  >> Read “The Tale of Mungo Napier”:
                  >>
                  >> http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/napier1.html
                  >>
                  >>  
                  >>
                  >>  
                  >>
                  >>  
                  >>
                  >> From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bernhard Rohrer
                  >> Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 9:44 AM
                  >> To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com
                  >> Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question
                  >>
                  >>  
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Greetings good gentles
                  >>
                  >> I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.
                  >>
                  >> YIS
                  >>
                  >> Arpad
                  >>
                  >> ________________________________
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >

                • James Koch
                  Gentlemen, ... Scoring is left up to the marshals. For instance, at Pennsic shooters are not allowed to approach the target until after it has been scored,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                    Gentlemen, 
                    >
                    Scoring is left up to the marshals.  For instance, at Pennsic shooters are not allowed to approach the target until after it has been scored, though misses around the butt may be gathered.  Royal Rounds at practices here in the Mid are treated far less formally.
                    >
                    Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                    >
                    >
                    > At 12:25 PM 7/1/2013, you wrote:
                     

                    greetings
                     
                    I believe that the rule was left out on purpose.
                    we are supposed to be an " honorable society " whose members would not think it worth the loss of honor and respect to gain something as worthless as a point.
                    however, over the years I have seen a lot of the mundane mentality of " win at any cost " creep into all aspects of the martial activities in the sca : (
                    luckily , not as often as it is seen mundanely, but still often enough to make people take notice, and shake their heads : /
                     
                    Be Safe , Be Happy, Have Fun .
                    Arthur
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Bill Tait
                    To: sca-archery
                    Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 10:44 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

                     

                    And I now twitch watching people score I  the sca. I have even seen people flattening out the target to see where the line wouod be if that wrinkle were not there.

                    I think that rule is not in our gwme to keep it fun ane less serious. But. There are a number of rules in sca archery that are more restrictive than in FITA.

                    Williqm Arwemakere
                    On 2013-07-01 8:39 AM, "Bernhard Rohrer" <graylion@...> wrote:
                     

                    Greetings good gentles

                    I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

                    YIS

                    Arpad


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                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                  • Bernhard Rohrer
                    As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don t want to be scored higher on a
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                      As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.

                      Am I making sense?

                      /Arpad

                      On 01/07/13 18:30, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
                       

                      I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.

                      Suzanne

                      On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
                       

                      I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
                      Rupert.



                      Dave Rosen
                      drosen105@...


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                      To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

                       
                      Greetings good gentles

                      I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

                      YIS

                      Arpad




                    • Frank Schalles
                      Greetings, From the Ansteorran point of view, we have a system of trust. If someone feels it necessary to cheat by causing a tear for a line break, then it is
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                        Greetings,

                        From the Ansteorran point of view, we have a system of trust. If someone feels it necessary to cheat by causing a tear for a line
                        break, then it is their loss, and will be found out eventually. This is a game wherein we compete with ourselves as well as other Archers in the SCA. If the Archer blatantly skews the arrow shaft it will be noticed, and the correct counseling will be provided.

                        However, as always, the Marshal in Charge has the last say, period.

                        Yours In Service,
                        Ld. Francois de Lions
                        Keeper of the Royal Rounds, Ansteorra
                        Central Region Archery Marshal, Ansteorra


                        On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...> wrote:


                        Greetings good gentles

                        I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

                        YIS

                        Arpad





                      • Bernhard Rohrer
                        ... Does the marshal know not to touch the arrows? Again, it says nowhere in the rules, and the marshal, after all, is guided by the rules. /Arpad
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                          On 01/07/13 19:43, James Koch wrote:
                           

                          Gentlemen, 
                          >
                          Scoring is left up to the marshals.  For instance, at Pennsic shooters are not allowed to approach the target until after it has been scored, though misses around the butt may be gathered.  Royal Rounds at practices here in the Mid are treated far less formally.
                          >
                          Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                          >

                          Does the marshal know not to touch the arrows? Again, it says nowhere in the rules, and the marshal, after all, is guided by the rules.

                          /Arpad
                        • Samuel
                          I feel your concern is noble. However the risk is very slight. Consider that an arrow that is scored wrong will only effect your score by one point. Since a
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                            I feel your concern is noble. However the risk is very slight.
                            Consider that an arrow that is scored wrong will only effect your score
                            by one point. Since a royal round is the average of your three highest
                            scores in a given year; you would have to have 3 arrows scored wrongly
                            in order to raise your royal round score by one point.
                            Samuel


                            On 7/1/13 2:44 PM, Bernhard Rohrer wrote:
                            > As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent
                            > falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be
                            > scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and
                            > broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.
                            >
                            > Am I making sense?
                            >
                            > /Arpad
                            >
                          • Paul O'Brien
                            Hi The SCA rules only list what is needed to run a shoot safely and not points of etiquette , i.e. don t touch arrows before they are scored, only collect
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                              Hi

                              The SCA rules only list what is needed to run a shoot safely and not points of etiquette, i.e. don't touch arrows before they are scored, only collect arrows in front of the target so that everyone is there for having their arrows scored at the same time and you don't have to wait while people collect overshoot arrows, remaining on the line until everyone has shoot, don't remove other peoples arrows without asking them, offering to pay for someone arrow you broke, height the centre of the target shoot be, the angel the boss shoot be set at, etc

                              The list is quite long of stuff you could include and as such the SCA appears to have decide to leave it mostly up to the archery marshal's/kingdom's/shoot co-ordinator's discretion with the expiation of safety issues.

                              While this means you some times get very relaxed shoots and sometimes very strict shoots (very GNAS style) I think the SCA as a whole befits from it; as it means you have the flexibility to do the"welcome to SCA archery and lets have some fun shooting" and you can also have the "best archers in the kingdom shoots face off shoot".

                              It also gives each kingdom a lot more choose in how archery shoot be run within itself.

                              YIS
                              Pól


                               

                              On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...> wrote:


                              Greetings good gentles

                              I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

                              YIS

                              Arpad





                            • Susan Carroll-Clark
                              Greetings! At the vast majority of shoots in Ealdormere, we trust each shooter to pull their own arrows and score accordingly. We will call in a marshal
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                                Greetings!

                                At the vast majority of shoots in Ealdormere, we trust each shooter to
                                pull their own arrows and score accordingly. We will call in a marshal
                                before pulling any arrow that's questionable (e.g. just breaking the
                                line) but in case of doubt the decision is always in the archer's
                                favour. Certainly at Pennsic during a War Point shoot you want the
                                marshals to do the scoring (it's always a lot easier to do it that way
                                at such a large event anyway, rather then having each shooter report
                                scores) but otherwise folks are on their honour to speak truly.

                                Nicolaa
                                Ealdormere
                              • Siegfried
                                Others have answered well, but I ll answer in my own words, and speaking (as Janyn did) from the Atlantian s POV: 1. The rules are there for safety. Scoring
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                                  Others have answered well, but I'll answer in my own words, and speaking
                                  (as Janyn did) from the Atlantian's POV:

                                  1. The rules are there for safety. Scoring is not safety. One does not
                                  make a rule about how something should be scored, since any number of
                                  different shoots can exist and be scored however is wished.

                                  2. Each Kingdom is different. In Atlantia it is quite common for all
                                  scoring to be left to the honor of the archer themselves to score.
                                  Sometimes a marshal might be standing there and watching. If there's
                                  ever a question about score, the archer will call the marshal over. But
                                  just like in golf, it's a 'monitored honor' system. Where you announce
                                  & record your own score. While keeping an eye on your fellow folks to
                                  make sure that they didn't 'accidentally' record a wrong score.

                                  Siegfried


                                  On 7/1/13 9:44 AM, Bernhard Rohrer wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Greetings good gentles
                                  >
                                  > I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have
                                  > reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest
                                  > that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh
                                  > and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not
                                  > count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional
                                  > ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.
                                  >
                                  > YIS
                                  >
                                  > Arpad
                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --
                                  Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust, OP - Baron Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                                  http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
                                • Chris Ivins
                                  Because I am disabled, I usually end up with someone retrieving arrows for me, but I always tell the retriever and marshals that if there is the slightest
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                                    Because I am disabled, I usually end up with someone retrieving arrows for me, but I always tell the retriever and marshals that if there is the slightest doubt, default it to the lower score/outer ring, that way there is no controversy about whether it 'cut' the line or not.

                                    - Iurii



                                    From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                    Cc: Suzanne Lacey <goldenhind05@...>
                                    Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question



                                    As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.

                                    Am I making sense?

                                    /Arpad

                                    On 01/07/13 18:30, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
                                     
                                    I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.

                                    Suzanne

                                    On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
                                    Rupert.


                                    Dave Rosen
                                    drosen105@...


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                                    To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
                                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

                                     
                                    Greetings good gentles

                                    I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

                                    YIS

                                    Arpad








                                  • Ronald Klick
                                    Exactly the practice as I ve always known it. And as a marshal, if it is THAT close, just give them the one point. Osmond East ________________________________
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                                      Exactly the practice as I've always known it. And as a marshal, if it is THAT close, just give them the one point.

                                      Osmond
                                      East


                                      From: Doug Copley <doug.copley@...>
                                      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:38 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

                                       
                                      For myself and for archers that I teach, I tell them to only pull the arrows that there is no question on, if there is any question, leave it and have the marshal in charge or another marshal score it.

                                      Vincenti
                                      Ansteorra 


                                      On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Groff, Garth (ggg9y) <ggg9y@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      M’Lord Arpad,
                                       
                                      We have no such rule here in Atlantia. We are an honorable society, and (until proven otherwise, which I hope never happens) assume that all archers are likewise honest and honorable. In addition, when there is any question, a scoring decision is always in favor of the archer.
                                       
                                      Yours Aye,
                                       
                                      Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir (Atlantia) TA Marshal
                                      Read “The Tale of Mungo Napier”:
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bernhard Rohrer
                                      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 9:44 AM
                                      To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question
                                       


                                      Greetings good gentles

                                      I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

                                      YIS

                                      Arpad








                                    • Dierk zem Grauen Wolf
                                      To me, this entire discussion is really pretty petty. It s a game. Does it really matter what you score? If something as nitpicky as touching an arrow causing
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                                        To me, this entire discussion is really pretty petty. It's a game. Does it really matter what you score? If something as nitpicky as touching an arrow causing a line to break really cause you any concern at all, you're in the wrong society. So what if your score goes up a point or two? Does it really matter??? Go out and shoot, enjoy the comraderie, laugh, b.s. with your fellow archers, and don't worry about what you score. I go out to have fun. I couldn't care less whether I win, lose, or do better than other archers. In the end, if I had fun, that is all that matters.

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Dierk zem grauen wolf
                                        Great household of the dark horde

                                        On Jul 1, 2013 2:45 PM, "Bernhard Rohrer" <graylion@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        >
                                        > As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.
                                        >
                                        > Am I making sense?
                                        >
                                        > /Arpad
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 01/07/13 18:30, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >>  
                                        >>
                                        >> I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.
                                        >>
                                        >> Suzanne
                                        >>
                                        >> On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
                                        >>>
                                        >>>  
                                        >>>
                                        >>> I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
                                        >>> Rupert.
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Dave Rosen
                                        >>> drosen105@...
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>> -----Original Message-----
                                        >>> From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                                        >>> To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                                        >>> Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
                                        >>> Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question
                                        >>>
                                        >>>  
                                        >>> Greetings good gentles
                                        >>>
                                        >>> I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> YIS
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Arpad
                                        >>> ________________________________
                                        >>>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >

                                      • Jim Pickette
                                        It seems that in all of these mentioned cases Honour was well served. We do not need to inspect or re-inspect a target, but in the most severe conditions. JoO
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                                          It seems that in all of these mentioned cases Honour was well served. We do not need to inspect or re-inspect a target, but in the most severe conditions.

                                          JoO

                                          ---- Chris Ivins <yuriilev@...> wrote:
                                          > Because I am disabled, I usually end up with someone retrieving arrows for me, but I always tell the retriever and marshals that if there is the slightest doubt, default it to the lower score/outer ring, that way there is no controversy about whether it 'cut' the line or not.
                                          >
                                          > - Iurii
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >________________________________
                                          > > From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                                          > >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >Cc: Suzanne Lacey <goldenhind05@...>
                                          > >Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 AM
                                          > >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >As I said - my point is not about active cheating but about inadvertent falsification of results. Let me put it this way: I don't want to be scored higher on a miss, just because somebody touched my arrow and broke the line. I want to earn my points. And this does concern my honour.
                                          > >
                                          > >Am I making sense?
                                          > >
                                          > >/Arpad
                                          > >
                                          > >On 01/07/13 18:30, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > 
                                          > >>I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.
                                          > >>
                                          > >>Suzanne
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >>On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
                                          > >>
                                          > >> 
                                          > >>>I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
                                          > >>>Rupert.
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>Dave Rosen
                                          > >>>drosen105@...
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>-----Original Message-----
                                          > >>>From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                                          > >>>To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > >>>Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
                                          > >>>Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules
                                          > question
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>> 
                                          > >>>Greetings good gentles
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>I have just come back to SCA
                                          > Archery after 10 year's
                                          > abstention and have reread
                                          > all rules to refamiliarise
                                          > myself. I have noticed with
                                          > interest that no rulset
                                          > mentions a rule that all
                                          > mundane archers have in
                                          > flesh and blood - an arrow
                                          > that got touched before it
                                          > got scored does not count,
                                          > as a touch can induce a line
                                          > break. Is this an
                                          > intentional ommission? If
                                          > so, I would be interested in
                                          > the intent behind it.
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>YIS
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>Arpad
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>________________________________
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                        • Carolus
                                          I can address this for Caid since I was there for the writing of the first handbook. It was not consciously addressed because the majority of archers at the
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jul 1, 2013
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                                            I can address this for Caid since I was there for the writing of the first handbook.  It was not consciously addressed because the majority of archers at the time came from the ranks of collegiate or avocational competitive shooters and it is an ingrained habit for them.  We always taught it to new archers and so was simply a part the the culture.  It simply wasn't a needed rule at the time.  The worry was not so much one of gaining an undeserved point as it was costing another archer a point they deserved. 
                                            Carolus
                                            On 7/1/2013 10:30 AM, Suzanne Lacey wrote:
                                             

                                            I've seen some excited discussion of where exactly a line might be (I now use Sharpies to make novelty target lines very clear), but I've never seen any deliberate cheating in an SCA shoot. I agree that the loss of honor would be significant in our Society and never worth a point even if no one but the cheater knew. So, yes, most likely a deliberate omission.

                                            Suzanne

                                            On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:32 AM, <drosen105@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            I believe it's a deliberate omission since the SCA is based on honor and chivalry
                                            Rupert.



                                            Dave Rosen
                                            drosen105@...


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Bernhard Rohrer <graylion@...>
                                            To: SCA-Archery yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:38 am
                                            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery rules question

                                             
                                            Greetings good gentles

                                            I have just come back to SCA Archery after 10 year's abstention and have reread all rules to refamiliarise myself. I have noticed with interest that no rulset mentions a rule that all mundane archers have in flesh and blood - an arrow that got touched before it got scored does not count, as a touch can induce a line break. Is this an intentional ommission? If so, I would be interested in the intent behind it.

                                            YIS

                                            Arpad




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