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arrow shelf

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  • richard johnson
    Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern development....., I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having feathers
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 4, 2013
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      Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern
      development.....,

      I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
      feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
      know I did.

      I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
      pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
      carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
      could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
      hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

      Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
      to a bow can be considered to be Period.

      Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
      Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
      Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
      invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
      simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

      --
      Rick Johnson
      http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
      "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
      security will soon find that they have neither."
    • Ken Dolphin
      I know several people who have added a shelf to the outside of their bow and the bow is still a period longbow. Personally, I wear a glove, on my bowhand. It
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 4, 2013
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        I know several people who have added a shelf to the outside of their bow and the bow is still a period longbow. Personally, I wear a glove, on my bowhand. It works just fine.
         
        Kenneth
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 9:07 AM
        Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

         

        Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern
        development.....,

        I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
        feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
        know I did.

        I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
        pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
        carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
        could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
        hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

        Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
        to a bow can be considered to be Period.

        Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
        Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
        Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
        invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
        simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

        --
        Rick Johnson
        http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
        "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
        security will soon find that they have neither."

      • richard johnson
        I keep thinking about a glove and am working towards that. Currently, I found a box of antler pieces for buck apiece or the whole box for $10. As there were
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 4, 2013
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          I keep thinking about a glove and am working towards that.

          Currently, I found a box of antler pieces for buck apiece or the
          whole box for $10. As there were something like 30 pieces,I took the
          box and used a piece of antler to add a shelf. Then I kept reducing
          the size of the shelf until I got a size that worked best.

          It is just a small piece of antler or wood (depending on my bow) that
          I glued to the side and wrapped to my longbow.

          Nothing fancy but it works. And still looks like a period longbow.

          Reminds me, I need to contact GIBow again and buy a heavier longbow<g>
          I can get 2 rough longbows (minor sanding and staining required) for
          $40-$75.
          They are having a sale right now.

          On 6/4/13, Ken Dolphin <kldolphin@...> wrote:
          > I know several people who have added a shelf to the outside of their bow and
          > the bow is still a period longbow. Personally, I wear a glove, on my
          > bowhand. It works just fine.
          >
          > Kenneth
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: richard johnson
          > To: SCA-archery
          > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 9:07 AM
          > Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf
          >
          >
          >
          > Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern
          > development.....,
          >
          > I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
          > feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
          > know I did.
          >
          > I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
          > pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
          > carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
          > could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
          > hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."
          >
          > Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
          > to a bow can be considered to be Period.
          >
          > Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
          > Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
          > Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
          > invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
          > simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.
          >
          > --
          > Rick Johnson
          > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
          > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
          > security will soon find that they have neither."
          >
          >
          >


          --
          Rick Johnson
          http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
          "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
          security will soon find that they have neither."
        • John Edgerton
          An other way of preventing feathers from being driven into the hand is the use of a glove on the bow hand. Or as was done in period, the binding on of the
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 4, 2013
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            An other way of preventing feathers from being driven into the hand is the use of a glove on the bow hand. Or as was done in period, the binding on of the feathers with serving and wrapping the ends of the rachis.  This holds the feathers in place and keeps the leading end from coming up and hitting the hand. 

            Jon


            From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
            To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tue, June 4, 2013 9:07:31 AM
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

             

            Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern
            development.....,

            I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
            feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
            know I did.

            I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
            pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
            carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
            could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
            hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

            Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
            to a bow can be considered to be Period.

            Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
            Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
            Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
            invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
            simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

            --
            Rick Johnson
            http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
            "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
            security will soon find that they have neither."

          • William Davis
            I too wear a glove on my bow hand.  It took me all of 1 time having to pull fletching from my pointer finger to convince me a leather glove was a good idea. 
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 4, 2013
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              I too wear a glove on my bow hand.  It took me all of 1 time having to pull fletching from my pointer finger to convince me a leather glove was a good idea.  It is also helpful when a arrow goes astray, into the brush.  You can never be sure quite what you have to pull out of the way to retrieve your arrow.  The glove is handy, even if you do  have a shelf.  It also helps absort sweat from your palm, so your grip is not slippery, and when the weather gets cold, it helps keep your hand warm.

              Gwilym
            • Bai-Or
              I use both, the feathers can still cut even with a binding. In period, I would assume they did something similar as wrapping the hand in leather would of been
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 4, 2013
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                I use both, the feathers can still cut even with a binding.  In period, I would assume they did something similar as wrapping the hand in leather would of been fairly simple.  For horsebows, I haven't seen any historical depictions, accounts, or finds that show a shelf on the bow.  There is some descriptions of how the thumb should be positioned (most were shot of the thumb of the bow hand) to gain maximum shot consistency, implying there was no shelf.

                One of the issues with making general rules that apply to what is period and are expected to cover so many different cultures and 1000 years of history are these kinds of isolated accounts.  A similar thing was brought up about crossbows and rifle stocks/triggers.  I myself am not a fan of modified "camp bows" being included as period, mostly because they aren't even trying to be period by design.
                 
                -- 
                Eógan
                Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 2:05 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                 

                An other way of preventing feathers from being driven into the hand is the use of a glove on the bow hand. Or as was done in period, the binding on of the feathers with serving and wrapping the ends of the rachis.  This holds the feathers in place and keeps the leading end from coming up and hitting the hand. 

                Jon


                From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
                To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tue, June 4, 2013 9:07:31 AM
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                 

                Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern


                development.....,

                I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
                feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
                know I did.

                I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
                pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
                carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
                could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
                hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

                Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
                to a bow can be considered to be Period.

                Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
                Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
                Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
                invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
                simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

                --
                Rick Johnson
                http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                security will soon find that they have neither."




                --
                Eógan
                Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery
              • Carolus
                Remember also, that many cultures who used the horse bow also used a siper. If we are to be truly period, horse bows should only be used from horseback as we
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 4, 2013
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                  Remember also, that many cultures who used the horse bow also used a siper.  If we are to be truly period, horse bows should only  be used from horseback as we have little or no documentation to them being used on foot nor is there evidence of being used with secondary or tertiary draws.  How far are we willing to go in being culturally consistent?
                  Carolus
                  On 6/4/2013 12:22 PM, Bai-Or wrote:
                   

                  I use both, the feathers can still cut even with a binding.  In period, I would assume they did something similar as wrapping the hand in leather would of been fairly simple.  For horsebows, I haven't seen any historical depictions, accounts, or finds that show a shelf on the bow.  There is some descriptions of how the thumb should be positioned (most were shot of the thumb of the bow hand) to gain maximum shot consistency, implying there was no shelf.


                  One of the issues with making general rules that apply to what is period and are expected to cover so many different cultures and 1000 years of history are these kinds of isolated accounts.  A similar thing was brought up about crossbows and rifle stocks/triggers.  I myself am not a fan of modified "camp bows" being included as period, mostly because they aren't even trying to be period by design.
                   
                  -- 
                  Eógan
                  Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                  http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                  On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 2:05 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                   
                  An other way of preventing feathers from being driven into the hand is the use of a glove on the bow hand. Or as was done in period, the binding on of the feathers with serving and wrapping the ends of the rachis.  This holds the feathers in place and keeps the leading end from coming up and hitting the hand. 

                  Jon


                  From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
                  To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tue, June 4, 2013 9:07:31 AM
                  Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                   

                  Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern


                  development.....,

                  I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
                  feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
                  know I did.

                  I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
                  pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
                  carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
                  could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
                  hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

                  Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
                  to a bow can be considered to be Period.

                  Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
                  Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
                  Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
                  invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
                  simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

                  --
                  Rick Johnson
                  http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                  "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                  security will soon find that they have neither."



                  --
                  Eógan
                  Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                  http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                • Ken Dolphin
                  Try to look up a painting by Carpaccio called Death of the Pilgrim and the Funeral of St. Ursula. Painted in about 1538. Look at the bow. KOS ... From: Carolus
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 4, 2013
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                    Try to look up a painting by Carpaccio called Death of the Pilgrim and the Funeral of St. Ursula. Painted in about 1538. Look at the bow.
                     
                    KOS
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Carolus
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 11:23 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                     

                    Remember also, that many cultures who used the horse bow also used a siper.  If we are to be truly period, horse bows should only  be used from horseback as we have little or no documentation to them being used on foot nor is there evidence of being used with secondary or tertiary draws.  How far are we willing to go in being culturally consistent?
                    Carolus

                    On 6/4/2013 12:22 PM, Bai-Or wrote:
                     

                    I use both, the feathers can still cut even with a binding.  In period, I would assume they did something similar as wrapping the hand in leather would of been fairly simple.  For horsebows, I haven't seen any historical depictions, accounts, or finds that show a shelf on the bow.  There is some descriptions of how the thumb should be positioned (most were shot of the thumb of the bow hand) to gain maximum shot consistency, implying there was no shelf.


                    One of the issues with making general rules that apply to what is period and are expected to cover so many different cultures and 1000 years of history are these kinds of isolated accounts.  A similar thing was brought up about crossbows and rifle stocks/triggers.  I myself am not a fan of modified "camp bows" being included as period, mostly because they aren't even trying to be period by design.

                    -- 
                    Eógan
                    Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                    http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                    On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 2:05 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                     
                    An other way of preventing feathers from being driven into the hand is the use of a glove on the bow hand. Or as was done in period, the binding on of the feathers with serving and wrapping the ends of the rachis.  This holds the feathers in place and keeps the leading end from coming up and hitting the hand. 

                    Jon


                    From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
                    To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tue, June 4, 2013 9:07:31 AM
                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                     

                    Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern


                    development.....,

                    I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
                    feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
                    know I did.

                    I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
                    pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
                    carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
                    could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
                    hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

                    Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
                    to a bow can be considered to be Period.

                    Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
                    Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
                    Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
                    invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
                    simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

                    --
                    Rick Johnson
                    http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                    "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                    security will soon find that they have neither."



                    --
                    Eógan
                    Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                    http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                • Ken Dolphin
                  Oops, Martyrdom of the Pilgrims and the Funeral of Saint Ursula, late 14 hundreds. ... From: Ken Dolphin To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June
                  Message 9 of 16 , Jun 4, 2013
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                    Oops, Martyrdom of the Pilgrims and the Funeral of Saint Ursula, late 14 hundreds.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 11:34 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                     

                    Try to look up a painting by Carpaccio called Death of the Pilgrim and the Funeral of St. Ursula. Painted in about 1538. Look at the bow.
                     
                    KOS
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Carolus
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 11:23 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                     

                    Remember also, that many cultures who used the horse bow also used a siper.  If we are to be truly period, horse bows should only  be used from horseback as we have little or no documentation to them being used on foot nor is there evidence of being used with secondary or tertiary draws.  How far are we willing to go in being culturally consistent?
                    Carolus

                    On 6/4/2013 12:22 PM, Bai-Or wrote:
                     

                    I use both, the feathers can still cut even with a binding.  In period, I would assume they did something similar as wrapping the hand in leather would of been fairly simple.  For horsebows, I haven't seen any historical depictions, accounts, or finds that show a shelf on the bow.  There is some descriptions of how the thumb should be positioned (most were shot of the thumb of the bow hand) to gain maximum shot consistency, implying there was no shelf.


                    One of the issues with making general rules that apply to what is period and are expected to cover so many different cultures and 1000 years of history are these kinds of isolated accounts.  A similar thing was brought up about crossbows and rifle stocks/triggers.  I myself am not a fan of modified "camp bows" being included as period, mostly because they aren't even trying to be period by design.

                    -- 
                    Eógan
                    Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                    http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                    On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 2:05 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                     
                    An other way of preventing feathers from being driven into the hand is the use of a glove on the bow hand. Or as was done in period, the binding on of the feathers with serving and wrapping the ends of the rachis.  This holds the feathers in place and keeps the leading end from coming up and hitting the hand. 

                    Jon


                    From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
                    To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tue, June 4, 2013 9:07:31 AM
                    Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                     

                    Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern


                    development.....,

                    I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
                    feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
                    know I did.

                    I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
                    pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
                    carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
                    could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
                    hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

                    Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
                    to a bow can be considered to be Period.

                    Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
                    Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
                    Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
                    invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
                    simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

                    --
                    Rick Johnson
                    http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                    "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                    security will soon find that they have neither."



                    --
                    Eógan
                    Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                    http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                  • Carolus
                    Nice version of an extreme recurve bow but definitely not a horse bow as we typically use the term in the SCA. No siryahs and the tips are full working
                    Message 10 of 16 , Jun 5, 2013
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                      Nice version of an extreme recurve bow but definitely not a horse bow as we typically use the term in the SCA.  No siryahs and the tips are full working recurve, not rigid.  The full limb is flexed.
                      Carolus
                      On 6/4/2013 11:39 PM, Ken Dolphin wrote:
                       

                      Oops, Martyrdom of the Pilgrims and the Funeral of Saint Ursula, late 14 hundreds.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 11:34 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                       

                      Try to look up a painting by Carpaccio called Death of the Pilgrim and the Funeral of St. Ursula. Painted in about 1538. Look at the bow.
                       
                      KOS
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Carolus
                      Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 11:23 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                       

                      Remember also, that many cultures who used the horse bow also used a siper.  If we are to be truly period, horse bows should only  be used from horseback as we have little or no documentation to them being used on foot nor is there evidence of being used with secondary or tertiary draws.  How far are we willing to go in being culturally consistent?
                      Carolus

                      On 6/4/2013 12:22 PM, Bai-Or wrote:
                       

                      I use both, the feathers can still cut even with a binding.  In period, I would assume they did something similar as wrapping the hand in leather would of been fairly simple.  For horsebows, I haven't seen any historical depictions, accounts, or finds that show a shelf on the bow.  There is some descriptions of how the thumb should be positioned (most were shot of the thumb of the bow hand) to gain maximum shot consistency, implying there was no shelf.


                      One of the issues with making general rules that apply to what is period and are expected to cover so many different cultures and 1000 years of history are these kinds of isolated accounts.  A similar thing was brought up about crossbows and rifle stocks/triggers.  I myself am not a fan of modified "camp bows" being included as period, mostly because they aren't even trying to be period by design.

                      -- 
                      Eógan
                      Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                      http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                      On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 2:05 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                       
                      An other way of preventing feathers from being driven into the hand is the use of a glove on the bow hand. Or as was done in period, the binding on of the feathers with serving and wrapping the ends of the rachis.  This holds the feathers in place and keeps the leading end from coming up and hitting the hand. 

                      Jon


                      From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
                      To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tue, June 4, 2013 9:07:31 AM
                      Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                       

                      Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern


                      development.....,

                      I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
                      feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
                      know I did.

                      I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
                      pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
                      carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
                      could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
                      hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

                      Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
                      to a bow can be considered to be Period.

                      Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
                      Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
                      Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
                      invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
                      simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

                      --
                      Rick Johnson
                      http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                      "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                      security will soon find that they have neither."



                      --
                      Eógan
                      Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                      http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery


                    • Bai-Or
                      As i said before, the term horsebow is misleading, since not all horsebows were shot from horseback. I prefer Asian Composite bow. And although many cultures
                      Message 11 of 16 , Jun 5, 2013
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                        As i said before, the term horsebow is misleading, since not all horsebows were shot from horseback.  I prefer Asian Composite bow.  And although many cultures used them predominately from horseback, many of them also made use of infantry and foot archers using the same bows.  Bows are heavily used in siege defense throughout history, and certainly the major empires of the east (Ottoman, Persian, ect) would of used their bows in this manner.  There are plenty of depictions reflecting this, such as many of the early depictions of Scythians and later depictions of Chinese archers.

                        -- 
                        Eógan
                        Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                        http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                        On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 2:23 AM, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                         

                        Remember also, that many cultures who used the horse bow also used a siper.  If we are to be truly period, horse bows should only  be used from horseback as we have little or no documentation to them being used on foot nor is there evidence of being used with secondary or tertiary draws.  How far are we willing to go in being culturally consistent?
                        Carolus


                        On 6/4/2013 12:22 PM, Bai-Or wrote:
                         

                        I use both, the feathers can still cut even with a binding.  In period, I would assume they did something similar as wrapping the hand in leather would of been fairly simple.  For horsebows, I haven't seen any historical depictions, accounts, or finds that show a shelf on the bow.  There is some descriptions of how the thumb should be positioned (most were shot of the thumb of the bow hand) to gain maximum shot consistency, implying there was no shelf.


                        One of the issues with making general rules that apply to what is period and are expected to cover so many different cultures and 1000 years of history are these kinds of isolated accounts.  A similar thing was brought up about crossbows and rifle stocks/triggers.  I myself am not a fan of modified "camp bows" being included as period, mostly because they aren't even trying to be period by design.
                         
                        -- 
                        Eógan
                        Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                        http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                        On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 2:05 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                         
                        An other way of preventing feathers from being driven into the hand is the use of a glove on the bow hand. Or as was done in period, the binding on of the feathers with serving and wrapping the ends of the rachis.  This holds the feathers in place and keeps the leading end from coming up and hitting the hand. 

                        Jon


                        From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
                        To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tue, June 4, 2013 9:07:31 AM
                        Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                         

                        Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern


                        development.....,

                        I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
                        feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
                        know I did.

                        I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
                        pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
                        carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
                        could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
                        hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

                        Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
                        to a bow can be considered to be Period.

                        Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
                        Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
                        Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
                        invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
                        simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

                        --
                        Rick Johnson
                        http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                        "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                        security will soon find that they have neither."



                        --
                        Eógan
                        Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                        http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery




                        --
                        Eógan
                        Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                        http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery
                      • James Koch
                        Carolus, ... You need to shoot a bow well first standing on the ground before you can get up on a horse with one. Or at least that is the way we do it here.
                        Message 12 of 16 , Jun 5, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Carolus,
                          >
                          You need to shoot a bow well first standing on the ground before you can get up on a horse with one.  Or at least that is the way we do it here.  To think that so called horse bows were shot only from horseback, or even mostly from horseback is a misunderstanding.  Just because English longbows were used primarily by infantry doesn't prevent someone from using one on horseback.  In our group, Merlin regularly shoots his 80# Howard Hill from a horse.
                          >
                          Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
                          >
                          >  At 02:34 AM 6/5/2013, you wrote:
                           

                          Try to look up a painting by Carpaccio called Death of the Pilgrim and the Funeral of St. Ursula. Painted in about 1538. Look at the bow.
                           
                          KOS
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Carolus
                          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 11:23 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                           

                          Remember also, that many cultures who used the horse bow also used a siper.  If we are to be truly period, horse bows should only  be used from horseback as we have little or no documentation to them being used on foot nor is there evidence of being used with secondary or tertiary draws.  How far are we willing to go in being culturally consistent?
                          Carolus
                          On 6/4/2013 12:22 PM, Bai-Or wrote:
                           

                          I use both, the feathers can still cut even with a binding.  In period, I would assume they did something similar as wrapping the hand in leather would of been fairly simple.  For horsebows, I haven't seen any historical depictions, accounts, or finds that show a shelf on the bow.  There is some descriptions of how the thumb should be positioned (most were shot of the thumb of the bow hand) to gain maximum shot consistency, implying there was no shelf.

                          One of the issues with making general rules that apply to what is period and are expected to cover so many different cultures and 1000 years of history are these kinds of isolated accounts.  A similar thing was brought up about crossbows and rifle stocks/triggers.  I myself am not a fan of modified "camp bows" being included as period, mostly because they aren't even trying to be period by design.

                          --
                          Eógan
                          Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                          http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                          On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 2:05 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                           
                          An other way of preventing feathers from being driven into the hand is the use of a glove on the bow hand. Or as was done in period, the binding on of the feathers with serving and wrapping the ends of the rachis.  This holds the feathers in place and keeps the leading end from coming up and hitting the hand.

                          Jon


                          From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@... >
                          To: SCA-archery < SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tue, June 4, 2013 9:07:31 AM
                          Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                           

                          Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern

                          development.....,

                          I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
                          feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
                          know I did.

                          I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
                          pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
                          carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
                          could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
                          hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

                          Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
                          to a bow can be considered to be Period.

                          Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
                          Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
                          Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
                          invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
                          simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

                          --
                          Rick Johnson
                          http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                          "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                          security will soon find that they have neither."




                          --
                          Eógan
                          Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                          http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                        • Karl W. Evoy
                          I find it difficult to believe that the horse bow cultures never shot on foot, or used a different bow when doing so. You are correct that after a certain
                          Message 13 of 16 , Jun 5, 2013
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                            I find it difficult to believe that the "horse bow" cultures never shot on foot, or used a different bow when doing so.
                            You are correct that after a certain period (which I am not knowledgeable of), all shooting would have been done with a thumb ring.
                            Using a siper could be interesting, though some safety issues might need to ne dealt with, first.
                            Ancel
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Carolus
                            Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 2:23 AM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                             

                            Remember also, that many cultures who used the horse bow also used a siper.  If we are to be truly period, horse bows should only  be used from horseback as we have little or no documentation to them being used on foot nor is there evidence of being used with secondary or tertiary draws.  How far are we willing to go in being culturally consistent?
                            Carolus

                            On 6/4/2013 12:22 PM, Bai-Or wrote:
                             

                            I use both, the feathers can still cut even with a binding.  In period, I would assume they did something similar as wrapping the hand in leather would of been fairly simple.  For horsebows, I haven't seen any historical depictions, accounts, or finds that show a shelf on the bow.  There is some descriptions of how the thumb should be positioned (most were shot of the thumb of the bow hand) to gain maximum shot consistency, implying there was no shelf.


                            One of the issues with making general rules that apply to what is period and are expected to cover so many different cultures and 1000 years of history are these kinds of isolated accounts.  A similar thing was brought up about crossbows and rifle stocks/triggers.  I myself am not a fan of modified "camp bows" being included as period, mostly because they aren't even trying to be period by design.

                            -- 
                            Eógan
                            Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                            http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                            On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 2:05 PM, John Edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                             
                            An other way of preventing feathers from being driven into the hand is the use of a glove on the bow hand. Or as was done in period, the binding on of the feathers with serving and wrapping the ends of the rachis.  This holds the feathers in place and keeps the leading end from coming up and hitting the hand. 

                            Jon


                            From: richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...>
                            To: SCA-archery <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tue, June 4, 2013 9:07:31 AM
                            Subject: [SCA-Archery] arrow shelf

                             

                            Although I would believe that a cut-out arrow chelf is a modern


                            development.....,

                            I would also suspect that quite a few archers got tired of having
                            feathers driven through their hand when they shot-off-the-hand. I
                            know I did.

                            I would also imagine that quite a few people would be stting there,
                            pulling vanes from the skin like a splinter and thinking, "gosh, if I
                            carved a bit of wood or bone and tied it to the handle of my bow, I
                            could rest my arrow on that instead of my thumb and avoid ripping my
                            hands to shreds every time I nocked a badly fletched arrow."

                            Thus I'd seriously argue (without any proof) that an arrow-shelf added
                            to a bow can be considered to be Period.

                            Nowas to string-silencers.... I have no opinion.
                            Though I DID invent a stringing assistant to aid me in stringing my
                            Longbow that I would aslo argue, though without proof, that this
                            invention could be considered to be Period simply because it is such a
                            simple device that SOMEONE must have thought it up back then.

                            --
                            Rick Johnson
                            http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                            "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                            security will soon find that they have neither."



                            --
                            Eógan
                            Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
                            http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

                          • aelric_southlake
                            Richard, (Sorry, just checking the list after many days, I know this is a topic everyone s moved beyond, but,) YES, I d look at an ADDED shelf as very
                            Message 14 of 16 , Jun 11, 2013
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                              Richard, (Sorry, just checking the list after many days, I know this is a topic everyone's moved beyond, but,)

                              YES, I'd look at an ADDED shelf as very acceptable. And: I just saw in the new Lancaster Archery catalog that they offer an off-the-knuckle horseobw style recurve, made of rattan, for $99.00.

                              Have never seen the bow in person, but I have heard that rattan makes good inexpensive shooters. Maybe a great inexpensive way for someone looking to try a more period style of shooting, without massive commitment.

                              Very excited to track down this GIBow. Almost-finished gear is a great way to go too.

                              Anyone else know of sources for good, inexpensive period/ peri-ish gear?

                              --- richard johnson wrote: Reminds me, I need to contact GIBow again and buy a heavier longbow<g>
                              > I can get 2 rough longbows (minor sanding and staining required) for
                              > $40-$75.
                              > They are having a sale right now.
                            • aelric_southlake
                              Eogan, I definitely don t want anyone considering a modified camp bow as period IN ANY WAY - except in the one facet that I was trying to get at which is:
                              Message 15 of 16 , Jun 11, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Eogan, I definitely don't want anyone considering a modified camp bow as period IN ANY WAY - except in the one facet that I was trying to get at which is: Shooting off the knuckle from any kind of bow that has had its modern conveniences removed is a more period way of shooting than using a modern style, cut away arrow rest type bow.

                                Camp bows shouldn't be put into any kind of "period division." Just saying that a bow that requires off-the-knuckle shooting is a more period bow than a modern one. If such bows could be a bridge to more period archery, then, great...

                                --- Bai-Or wrote: I myself am not a fan of modified "camp bows" being included as period, mostly because they aren't even trying to be period by design.
                              • richard johnson
                                ... I ve seen rattan bows at the Ren Faire. Advertized as the bow Jesus would have used! My research is that like PVC, they tend to be short in length and
                                Message 16 of 16 , Jun 11, 2013
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                                  >>Have never seen the bow in person, but I have heard that rattan makes good inexpensive shooters. Maybe a great inexpensive way for someone looking to try a more period style of shooting, without massive commitment.

                                  I've seen rattan bows at the Ren Faire. Advertized as "the bow Jesus
                                  would have used!"
                                  My research is that like PVC, they tend to be short in length and of
                                  low-power without the advantages of wood. But a decent rattan bow is
                                  still fun to shoot!

                                  >>Very excited to track down this GIBow. Almost-finished gear is a great way to go too.

                                  http://www.gibow.com/shop/
                                  They are running a special now, a 25# hickory longbow for $35. Good
                                  back-yard or short range bow!!!! I just bought a 45# for $99 to
                                  match my 35# longbow and shortbow. I knwo, but i;m gettting help.
                                  "Hello, I'm richard and I'm a bow-a-holic"
                                  Sometimes they offer a 2-for-one special which I take advantage of to
                                  get extra bows for my family.

                                  >>Anyone else know of sources for good, inexpensive period/ peri-ish gear?

                                  I've seen a few places mentioned here, alll seem to be excellent
                                  places and comparable in price and quality.
                                  I just prefer GIBow because it is owned by a Vet (and after 28 years
                                  USAF, I like to support other Vets) and it is an American Company
                                  (though I'd LOVE to own some of those British longbows! @ $450 each)


                                  On 6/11/13, aelric_southlake <magnetcoil@...> wrote:
                                  > Richard, (Sorry, just checking the list after many days, I know this is a
                                  > topic everyone's moved beyond, but,)
                                  >
                                  > YES, I'd look at an ADDED shelf as very acceptable. And: I just saw in the
                                  > new Lancaster Archery catalog that they offer an off-the-knuckle horseobw
                                  > style recurve, made of rattan, for $99.00.
                                  >
                                  > Have never seen the bow in person, but I have heard that rattan makes good
                                  > inexpensive shooters. Maybe a great inexpensive way for someone looking to
                                  > try a more period style of shooting, without massive commitment.
                                  >
                                  > Very excited to track down this GIBow. Almost-finished gear is a great way
                                  > to go too.
                                  >
                                  > Anyone else know of sources for good, inexpensive period/ peri-ish gear?
                                  >
                                  > --- richard johnson wrote: Reminds me, I need to contact GIBow again and buy
                                  > a heavier longbow<g>
                                  >> I can get 2 rough longbows (minor sanding and staining required) for
                                  >> $40-$75.
                                  >> They are having a sale right now.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  --
                                  Rick Johnson
                                  http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                                  "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                                  security will soon find that they have neither."
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