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Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery guild. Was: Period, non-period, and crossbows.

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  • Carolus
    I would agree with you entirely if this was a schutzenspiegel (a shooting society) or an ordinary archery club. But it s not. It s the SCA, which has a
    Message 1 of 94 , May 23, 2013
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      I would agree with you entirely if this was a schutzenspiegel (a shooting society) or an ordinary archery club.  But it's not.  It's the SCA, which has a stated purpose of education.  Far too much emphasis has been placed on simply shooting archery and not learning and teaching its historical perspective.  It is this lack of perspective which causes the lack of periodness.  We should be encouraging people to learn the role of the archer in society, the place of archery itself, and the study of the history of archery over shooting.  As long as we tell the craftsmen and researchers they have no place in the archery community (and we do - just look at the last few days posts on this list) we will have a predominance of those who shoot first and reflect period second.  Frankly, this is where I am at, even though I have the highest archery award my kingdom offers and have held the highest kingdom archery office.  I really don't feel the need to move beyond basic garb and appearance and will continue to shoot my modern bare recurve.  Putting rules and restrictions on equipment won't change that, it will only make me move further away from the SCA and back to modern archery.  I continue to study historical archery (which is why I was interested in the SCA in the first place, learning) but as long as shooting is the standard, it will take precedence to period equipment and appearance.  I have found inspiration to be the best motivator, our most period archers often were not our best shooters.
      Carolus
      On 5/23/2013 9:27 PM, Bai-Or wrote:
       

      Here's what I envision, and of course just me brainstorming randomly:


      To enter the guild you have to shoot a royal round of 20 (or some equivalent) with period gear.  The score itself is easily attainable, the gear would go with current standards.  Meaning they would either need to make or buy their own period arrows and a period bow, at the least.  I have new archers every year who hit this mark (in both gear and score) so i find this quite attainable.  Joining the guild means you have committed yourself to learning period techniques of archery and shooting period style bows/arrows at events/practices.  In recognition of making that commitment, you bare the badge of the guild.  If there are ranks, then rising in them should reflect your commitment to teach the techniques you have learned and/or your willingness promote period archery and/or skill with period equipment.

      Within guild ranks, charts, and rules for guilds themselves is where I am trying to sort things out.

      -Eogan

      On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
       

      Yes, access to multiple levels is needed.  But the entry level needs to be more than just beginner.  This doesn't mean the beginner can't come play with the members and learn from them but the guy with black jeans and tennis shoes just doesn't meet minimum level (There are ways to camoflage many modern items, though).  On the other hand, a relatively easily attainable minimum granting apprentice status should be available.  We are not stuck with the stereotypic Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master though that works. The Masonic fraternity is based on a guild like system and has a rank known as the Fellow which corresponds to Journeyman.  For example, as one's kit improves one could move to Journeyman, Fellow, Master, Excellent Master, and Grand Master.  Or pick other ranking names.  Having a series of rankings based on shooting defined rounds could also be implemented but it would be within the guild and not have a part in the greater SCA world.  The idea is that to get in the door one has to make an effort.  As Gladius pointed out, much is driven be awards: to use the title Lord or Lady one MUST have an award of arms (alone or conveyed with a specific recognition).  Admission to the guild is that recognition.  Not everyone gets in, if they do we won't promote period archery.
      Carolus


      On 5/23/2013 8:52 PM, Bai-Or wrote:
       

      I am somewhere in the middle on this, but honestly I don't see why we can't have it both ways.  To join the guild, you should either not need a score at all (just need the gear) or need a very easily attainable score.  But, as someone mentioned earlier, archers do love to get better and rise in ranks.  So it would be nice to have something to reflect your increasing skill with the period gear we are attempting to promote.  As for equipment, honestly I am fine with the system in place FOR NOW.  My only thing is that the guild should be for novices as well as masters, so the gear requirements shouldn't favor master crafters (or rich archers) anymore than the scores would.


      -Eogan

      On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Carolus <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
       

      I tend to disagree here.  First, the proposal was to promote enhanced periodness.  This does not require skill at shooting.  It does require representing the period archer.  Secondly, in period few archers crafted their own equipment.  They relied on bowyers, fletchers, arrowsmiths, and others.  If we really want to promote period archery we need to focus on that and not just shooting.  This has been one of the obstacles holding period archery back.  Every attempt in the past has become mired in this shoot for score morass.  Just look at how successful it's been over the late 20 years.  Insanity is doing the same thing over and over hoping for a different result.  Time to try something different.
      Carolus


      On 5/23/2013 8:07 PM, James Koch wrote:
       

      Gentlemen & Ladies,
      >
      I have to agree with Osmond on this one 100%.  A Royal Round is shot at no more than 40 yards and consists of no more than three ends of just six arrows.  I have seen people hit the 100 yard clout at Pennsic with 25 pound recurves and good arrows.  A person can certainly reach 40 yards with an average 20 pound bow.  If you can't manage to draw even that, perhaps you ought to consider a crossbow with a cocking lever.  I believe our rules allow for an assistant to span a shooter's crossbow when necessary.  This is based on King Richard at the siege of Acre when he shot at the defenders from a litter.  If all else fails, learn to shoot a blowgun.  At present I am the only person of whom I am aware with a posted blowgun RR score.  I can use some competition.  My take is, if you can't shoot a Royal Round, you are probably not an archer and shouldn't be wasting your time at the range. 
      >
      Jim Koch"Gladius The Alchemist"
      >
      >  At 10:26 PM 5/23/2013, you wrote:

       

      I am sorry to be blunt, but if one has a back injury and cannot shoot, then one is not an archer. Perhaps a
      former archer, or a retired archer, but not currently an archer.  Establishing a Novice level based on RR's
      seems a simple and obvious choice, perhaps with different criteria/shooting rounds for more advanced
      levels within the Guild. As for those that cannot shoot due to injury, are they suggesting any other
      method than RRs, or are they suggesting criteria that do not require shooting(?) which makes no sense.
      Archery is shooting,....  Are they giving you guff about your criteria and insisting that it allow those
      that cannot shoot to be allowed a pass because the cannot do the activity?

      Osmond


      From: otlcp1 <otlcp1@...>
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:46 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery guild. Was: Period, non-period, and crossbows.

       
      Here I gleann abhann we are trying to establish an archery guild wtih RR scores as a novice level and getting allot if guff because some people have back injuries which prevent them from shooting.


      Sent from my Galaxy S®III








      --
      Eógan
      Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
      http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery




      --
      Eógan
      Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren
      http://rangersofmynyddseren.wix.com/archery

    • pat_auten
      Having read comments, and having almost been driven away by one obsessed with perfection, my concern is omission. I like the concept that was presented that
      Message 94 of 94 , May 25, 2013
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        Having read comments, and having almost been driven away by one obsessed with perfection, my concern is omission. I like the concept that was presented that included archers like myself. Limiting a guild to only those with period equipment is exclusionary and could end up fragmenting our community. I could, however, be misunderstanding your use of the term "period" and the inclusion of those with non-period equipment. IMHO, if this guild is to be proposed as a society-wide entity it can't exclude any portion of our community and be successful.

        Moire Ayres, archer
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