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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Grand Archery Tournament

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  • James Koch
    Eogan, ... Jonathas and I have discussed this. We have decided that the initial scores will be wonky and incomplete with or without back loaded scores.
    Message 1 of 61 , Apr 30, 2013
      Jonathas and I have discussed this.  We have decided that the initial scores will be wonky and incomplete with or without back loaded scores.  However, the older scores are valid and will put more people on the board.  So we have decided to do it.  However, we'll allow scores for only the past year.  There are several very good reasons for this, but they are hard to explain.  In any case Jonathas has added temporary text to the rules allowing older scores to be sent.  Here is a copy of the text. 
      START UP:
      The GAT was initially announced on the community email list in mid-April 2013 with the initial standings populated solely with the data from the SSAC and the IKAC. To further jump start the initial standings all events which meet the GAT requirements and where shot between June 1, 2012 and May 1, 2013 are invited to submit their scores should the MIC still have them available. These back loading event submissions must be entered before June 30, 2013. As the Event Shoots input form will not allow for the entry of dates older the 30 days, please enter a weekday date (to help separate them from current valid events) as well as emailing the GAT Scorekeeper to let him know when all of the scores are entered for the event and the true date of the event.
      The GAT Standings during this initial start-up year, May 2012 - May 2014, will remain a bit wonky as many kingdoms will not be fully represented prior to the original announcement and events will be entered out of sequence. However the more events and data that can be added to the start-up year will help to make the standings after May 2014 even more stable as the data from back years offers a broader base to build on.
      Jim Koch "Gladius The Alchemist"
         At 12:33 PM 4/29/2013, you wrote:


      Backloading Events would need to be OK'ed by Gladius.  From a technical stand point, it is not currently available as Event Shoots may only be edited for 30 days after the date shot, at which point they are factored into the GAT standings (and editing after that would be a huge monkey wrench in the works).  It would be practically impossible to back load events throughout the past four years, but back loading the current year (last 365 days) could be done with the understanding that some of the numbers will be a bit funny since the event was submitted/processed out of sequence.  But then, in my opinion, the GAT standings will not really be valid until everyone has had a full year to know of the GAT and enter shoots which factor into the standings.

      As for sharing shoots across events to pile up archers to meet the minimum number requirement...  Yes, that is allowed, but should be worked out between a specific number of event MICs, who should all publish that they will be hosting the same shoot.  Their would be nothing worse then driving several hours to go to a new event, just to end up seeing the exact same shoot that you did two weeks ago at your local event!  Those MICs should then work out the specifics of the shoot they are putting on. Please note, that if this option is used, each of the events would not be submitting, rather the combined shoot would be submitted together as a single entry.

      The credit goes to Gladius for the idea, I just took the nightmare out of trying to maintain the numbers by baking it into the Scores Site.


      On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Bai-Or <baiorofred@...> wrote:


      Super cool and great job!  Can any events from the last 4 years be added?  If so, I will attempt to dig up the Nine Worthies scores and add them though we may fall just short of the 20 archer mark.

      The cut off of 20 archers is quite a bit and excludes a lot of small to medium sized events but I understand the reasoning.  It may be worth having a section that shows the type of shoot/rules for each event that could or is submitted so that other marshals can copy them at smaller events to maximize the potential for those scores to be included.

      Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren

      On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Jonathas <Jonathas@... > wrote:

      Alessandra, great question!

      Short answer - Yes, more Event Shoots & Scores please!!

      Long answer - The Event Shoot segment was added to the site several years ago to begin recording the non-standardized side of SCA archery.  However it was all but totally ignored as it really didn't do anything other then simply record scores and display them back.  Gladius came up with a fabulous idea for using event based shoots to build a Society wide ranking system as a counterpart to the extremely formalized/standardized Royal Rounds run by each Kingdom.  This idea became the Grand Archery Tournament, GAT for short.  Then together with Sir Jon we fleshed out the idea and built it into the Scores Site. The SSAC and IKAC where only added to it very late in the process out of fairness to areas which may not host enough events for archers to end up with enough entries to the GAT without travelling extreme distances.  Each year the GAT takes into account an archer's best five scores.  In the long run the hope is that most scores will be submitted via event based shoots and the SSAC/IKAC will only fill in the gaps.

      The Archery MIC (or local scorekeeper) of any archery shoot listed in their Kingdom's Newsletter is welcome to enter the shoot and associated scores into the Event Shoots (found under the Marshal Tools menu).  Once the Shoot and associated scores are entered the shoot can request to be added to the GAT, at which point Gladius will double check that it meets the requirements (in the newsletter and has enough archers) and accept it. 

      For more information and specifics on the GAT please visit it's website at:

      For questions/comments with the GAT please contact Gladius either on or off the list.  As this is still a very new idea, I'm sure the more open questions and answers there are the better defined it will become to all, and some may help shape and tweak the idea itself.

      As always, for any questions/comments/ideas about the Scores Site, be it the GAT or anything else hosted there, please feel free to email me.  I will do my best to respond to you or get you in contact with the person who can.

      Scores Site DBA

      On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Kat Pogatshnik <k.pogatshnik@... > wrote:

      Jonathas, So do you want scores even if they are not an IKAC or SSAC? 


      The SSAC and IKACs will be included at the end of their season, the reason
      they are included is so that everyone has access to five yearly scores
      which make up the basis for the GAT.

      However the idea for it is to be primarily based off of event based
      shoots. But for that to work MICs need to submit scores from events that
      are listed in the kingdom newsletter. If any marshals need help with that
      please let me know.


      Archery Captain, Shire of Mynydd Seren

    • Jonathas
      Iurii, To answer your question, yes the system is working properly you are currently ranked higher then the Archos, but then currently the system does not have
      Message 61 of 61 , Apr 30, 2013

        To answer your question, yes the system is working properly you are currently ranked higher then the Archos, but then currently the system does not have the full picture. 

        Don't forget that right now the GAT is based on a *VERY* limited data set, that is only the SSACs and IKACs.  If you shot all of these and the Archos in question only shot one of them, then yes in the GAT you would rank higher, as you have been more active in shooting.  Now once you both have 5 shoots, if the Archos does better in those shoots then he will rank higher then you.  Here in lies one of the BIG differences between the RR rankings that everyone is used to and the GAT.  In the RR you do not have a rank (aka average) at all until you have 3 scores, with the GAT as soon as you have one score you have a rank although it is not all that it could be since it is truly based on 5 scores.  This was choosen to encourage people to shoot more, yet not allow someone who enters absolutely everything yet does very poorly to come out on top.  A decent active archer should enter at least 5 events a year, especially with the SSAC and IKAC filling in the gaps, and if they enter more events then only the best five are used.

        Hey, be happy and brag about the accomplishment!  YOU are ranked higher then the Archos!!!  As I said to one of my local archers, "Right now you are the best handbow shooter in the entire SCA!!! Based on the current SSAC anyway." Which was a true statement, since she had submitted the only handbow score at that point.  Enjoy it while it lasts!


        On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Chris Ivins <yuriilev@...> wrote:

        I'm a bit confused about the ranking order on the current list, according to it's system, I'm actually ranked higher than an Archos in my local area, and his scores are much higher than mine, by any comparison. Is this just because the system is getting ironed out, or am I missing something critical in the formula?

        - In Service,
                            Lord Iurii Levchenich, Junior TAM
                            Deputy to the Honorable Lady Johanna Trewpeny, Adiantum Archery Marshal
                            Arcuarius to Gawin of Kevelioc

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